Forced City

War4ever · December 2, 1999, 17:28

Ok so last night while waiting for a game I played a large 100by100 game with 7AI and Raging Hordes as per usual. I tripped over my first hut and out came a horsey.... so off to exploring

I was being really picky about my starting site so i wandered and wandered and wandered until 1550 BC. In this time I turned over 9Archers 4horses 3chariots 1elephant and 450Gold. I also turned over 11techs which were... Alphabet C.O.L. Ceremonial Burial. Monarchy. Wheel Horseback Riding Bronze Working Iron working WarriorCode Masonry.

as u can see i got an elephant.... how is this possible without Polytheism. I thought one needed the prerequisites to get new advances or units.

Well i finally tipped over another hut and Voila my first and really crappy city site which i was trying to avoid appeared (1550 bc) same turn another city site which was crap too..... next turn i met the japanese....

I am still in the dark as too why the game founded my first city for me.... i have never seen that before..... does anyone have any answers .... maybe because it was in close proximity of the ai.... that continent was huge.....

Has anyone else noticed something like this and have you ever noticed that if your exploring and wait to found a city that your land is always huge but if you found your city early the land may be alot smaller?

oh and one more thing... do you ever find that your none units appear to be weaker than the ones you build on your own. i attacked a phalanx on plains with a vet none archer and lost three times .... attacked the city on plains with two vet archers and a vet chariot and elephant and lost! all none units...... its like i was punished for having all those units so the computer rendered them useless and destroyed them all

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War is the answer when you need to strike first.

War is the answer when you think you should strike first

war is the answer when you think others may strike first.

Steve Clark · December 2, 1999, 17:56

Regarding prerequisites: no, a hut can give any unit within reason. In games where I have started with no techs (like the current one), you can get horsemen, archers, chariots, elephants, warriors, but not phalanx. Otherwise, before your first city, the huts would only give you gold, tribes (as you found out) and scrolls but nothing decent to explore/defend with expect your settler and warriors.
[This message has been edited by Steve Clark (edited December 02, 1999).]

Ming · December 2, 1999, 19:23

Yeah... somebody else reported that you eventually will get a city from a hut if you wait long enough. But the last person said it was about 1000BC. Your city is the earliest I have ever heard about. I have never wandered that long, so I wouldn't know

And I think your experience with non units seeming weaker is just a matter of the luck of the draw. I have won many battles with those early non units... and some of them were even against the normal odds.

War4ever · December 2, 1999, 20:10

Ming .... i too have destroyed 3-4 civs from my none units on smaller maps without founding a city but it seems as if the computer handicaps you if you go on an early rampage like that... not always, just when i have tons of none units.... i wonder if there is a limit on none units

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War is the answer when you need to strike first.

War is the answer when you think you should strike first

war is the answer when you think others may strike first.

Havelock Vetinari · December 2, 1999, 20:12

It's doesn't have to be the game forcing a city on you deliberately...if there's a probability of only about 5% (only a very rough guess) that a city will be founded from each hut, by the time you reach your 20th hut there's roughly a 65% of having a city...and by the time you reach your 30th hut it's about 80%.
If the hut-to-city chance is about 15%, then by the 20th hut you have a 97% chance of having a city...and by the 30th, about 99.2% chance of having a city. How many huts did you say you went into?
So it doesn't necessarily force you into getting a city, probability will do it for you.

regarding prereqs, maybe it has to do with global tech level? some wonders do, as do barbarians (another source of NON units)

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May you live in Interesting Times...

December 2, 1999, 23:11

I can recall once when I entered my 1st hut about 5 mins into the game and I got a city out of it. It's a very rare occurence though, as has already been stated. It did happen more often to me in the original Civ though.

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"Good generals talk about strategy. Great generals talk about logistics."

tobyr · December 3, 1999, 00:15

Havelock,
If there is a 5% chance of founding a city when you open a hut, then after you open 10 huts and don't get a city, there is STILL a 5% chance that your next hut will yield a city, unless the game handicaps you. Random odds have no memory of what came before, and they can "even out" in the long run without needing a memory of what came before.

- toby

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toby robison
criticalpaths@mindspring.com

johnmcd · December 3, 1999, 05:47

Yes tobyr you're right, there is a five percent chance that your next hut will yield a city, but if you open twenty there is a 95% chance (or whatever, I haven't done the maths) that one of them will have been a city. The fact that none of them were a city does not mean the next one is anymore likely to be a city, unless there is something in the code.

Ming · December 3, 1999, 09:33

Thall...
I find it interesting that you got a city from a hut 5 minutes into the game without having placed your first city yet. I have played hundreds of games playing the hut chasing strategy before placing my first city... and never got a city prior to the year 2500bc. (that was the latest I ever waited to start my first city)

Sounds like a typical Civ Bug to me

finbar · December 3, 1999, 10:17

Turning over your first city out of a hut early on does happen. Not that often, certainly. What I've found more common - though still not an everyday event - is getting a second city out of a hut just after you've built your first. Happened to me today.

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finbar
Mono Rules!
#33984591

MyOlde · December 3, 1999, 10:27

A little off-topic but a little on, too: if you wait that long (e.g. 1000 BC) do you have much of a chance of winning? I can see that you could if you're warmongering but what about launching a ship to AC?

johnmcd · December 3, 1999, 14:22

Yep, you can still win without to much trouble. The AI is, remember, pants. When you are really weak the AI is quite cuddly. Just go for an alliance with them, easy when your weak and have never been hostile to anyone. Then every other turn ask for a gift, they'll keep on giving until your up to about parity. If you do this with three or four civs all your lacking is towns, and their not to difficult to found once you've found the b button on your keyboard. Also if you leave it that late to start you should have a stack of gold out of huts, so rush building warriors and temples shouldn't be too tricky and then the next thing you know you'll be back in the lead.

jpk · December 3, 1999, 18:09

The probability of getting a city from a hut in the situation where you have no city must increase with the date. (The probability is low at 4000 BC and higher at 1500 BC). This is the only way I can reconcile my experience, which is similar to what Ming reports, with what War4ever says.

I have the Macintosh version so that might mke a difference.

Why'll I've never checked it out by using the cheat menu I have always thought that if you got an elephant from a hut someone must have polytheism.

Scouse Gits · December 4, 1999, 00:02

jpk - yes right on, someone has to have the enabling tech - we recently got dragoons from a goody hut - but the Japanese had leadership (we didn't).
{SG[1]}As a disavowed mathematician - there has been a lot of dubious material posted on this thread - but no-one seems to have mentioned the underlying terrain! Goody huts do NOT decant cities on anything but grassland and plains - if you don't want a city don't tip huts on level ground!
It is 04:00 in the morning GMT the red wine has been flowing well - good night all!
SG[1&2]

finbar · December 4, 1999, 01:44

Um, it has been observed elsewhere that you only get cities out of huts on plains, grasslands and rivers.

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finbar
Mono Rules!
#33984591

Havelock Vetinari · December 4, 1999, 21:59

Tobyr: I'm not saying that it remembers the past events...I'm talking about binomial probability (the probability of an event with two possible outcomes).
Consider...after opening 20 huts, with a 5% chance at each hut, there is a 0.95 * 0.95 * 0.95.... = 0.95 ^ 20 chance that a city will not have been founded, ie a 1 - (0.95 ^ 20) chance that one would have been.
I was saying that after 20 huts therse was a 65% chance of having a city, not that the 21st hut had a 65% chance of yielding a city. Hope that clears things up.

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May you live in Interesting Times...

Havelock Vetinari · December 4, 1999, 22:00

delete message, double post
sorry
[This message has been edited by Havelock Vetinari (edited December 04, 1999).]

johnmcd · December 10, 1999, 09:37

Whilest attempting to my OCC for men and actual the OCC challenges recently I have been considering the forced city issue. I used to find that I would get an advanced tribe extremely rarely, every four or five games, but, whilst more aware due to this thread, I have found I seem to get many more advaced tribes on OCC. Does anyone know if the chances of an advaced tribe are related to the number of towns you have?

DaveV · December 10, 1999, 10:24

I think the hut probablities change with the era of the game, not number of cities. I've never seen multiple barbs from a hut in the very early game (wouldn't that ruin your day?), and it seems to me (seat of the pants feeling) that the probability of barbs increases as time goes by.

If you're exploring more aggressively and knocking over more huts in OCC, that may explaing why you see more advanced tribes.

johnmcd · December 10, 1999, 10:34

I know what you mean Dave but I don't think thats it. Certainly you only get Barbarian rather than Barbarians early doors, and, as you can't get ancient scrolls after invention that certainly boosts the chances of getting barbs. But in my normal game I am an explosive developer. I aim for at least twenty cities by AD and never stop. Every city I found must build two settlers for founding before anything else, so I do trip alot of huts.

War4ever · December 10, 1999, 16:47

something i have noticed about advanced tribes, is that if you have less cities than the ai... you can expect more tribes from huts..... its almost as if the computer is helping to get you back in the race... i really wish it wouldn't as i need litlle help establishing cities.

However just he other day while trying out a strategy... i built both my none settlers and the next 4huts i tipped over gave me three tribes and one none settler

not to shabby...plus the bonus of my tribes being on rivers.... now i wonder if this is a glitch or was i just lucky as i am not aware if one is supposed to get tribes from huts on rivers but there they were.

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War is the answer when you need to strike first.

War is the answer when you think you should strike first

war is the answer when you think others may strike first.