First Impressions--Pleased

[BigB]

I was someone who was so disgusted with CTP that I literally threw it out on my street and let traffic run over it! I wouldn't have bought CTP2, except Firaxis is taking way too long with Civ III, and I need a new civ-style fix.

Now that I've purchased and played CTP2 for an hour, I have to say I'm very impressed so far. There is none of the endless confusion over movement that there was with CTP. The installation went flawlessly, and I've experienced no crashes or anomalies whatsoever. It correctly read and adapted to my system by giving me what my system can handle, rather than being conservative (like most games) and just giving me the minimum my system can handle. The music is great, the graphics are outstanding. The interface takes some getting used to, but that's true of most games. And I'm frustrated with having to study the tech tree. After years of Civ playing, and basically having the tech tree memorized, starting from scratch is rather humbling!

There may be issues I encounter later, but so far . . . I'm extremely happy! That first hour is all-important to me, and I'm pleased to say that CTP2 has passed that test.

[Ralf]

quote: Originally posted by BigB on 11-17-2000 08:57 PM I was someone who was so disgusted with CTP that I literally threw it out on my street and let traffic run over it!

I can really relate to that - i felt exactly the same thing. I played 3-4 half-finished CTP-games and then never touched "it" again. I have to wait another 2 weeks for CTP-2 however.

To read that you - with above history in mind - now are "extremely happy" is very satisfying. By comparison; to read "if you liked CTP, you going to love CTP-2" type of comments, only gets me very, very suspicious.

My only *main* concern left, is how playable the game is from a love-to-micromanage-everything point of view. I dont use mayors or building-queues (i almost never go beyond 20-25 cities, so micromanaging isnt that much work for me). I have asked some questions before, but so far i have only got pretty contradictive and inconclusive answers, so this is my last shot at it.

I want the game to *automatically* recenter the map on each and every unit/city without orders left. I dont want to be forced to use keystrokes to manually jump around from one unit (or city) to the next. Its so damn unnecessary. Can the game be tweaked to do that automatically?

I *dont* want cities to asume that its OK to build yet a unit just because i missed some notification in the right corner of the window - the game should be tweakable to HALT and RECENTER the map, if any city-improvement or single unit has been built in any city.

If i click (doubleclick?) any city-name in the overall national-manager; does that take me to that city´s indevidual city-manager?

Can i build units/improvements also directly from the city-manager, or *must* i move up to the build-manager to do that?

Have CTP-2 lots of On/Off tweak options (yes, i know about the text-files, but how about in-game options?). What im aiming at here that one should be able toggle all kinds of warning-messages.

I loved the buckloads of toggle game-options in SMAC.

[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited November 18, 2000).]

[Mad-Kat]

I want the game to *automatically* recenter the map on each and every unit/city without orders left. I dont want to be forced to use keystrokes to manually jump around from one unit/city to the next. Its so damn unnecessary. Can the game be tweaked to do that automatically?

This is one I'm not sure about. The game does not seem to always center on a unit even though it's set to do so from the options. I sometimes have to press o to cycle waiting units. Could be a bug. How about and explanation on this Activision?

I *dont* want cities to asume that its OK to build yet a unit just because i missed some notification in the right corner of the window - the game should be tweakable to HALT and RECENTER the map, if any city-improvement or single unit has been built in any city.

I don't think it's going to stop and tell you every time something is built, only if there is an empty build queue. Even in the advanced options there is nothing that suggest a 'verbose report' mode like that.
Low priority messages just go into the message queue. Of course if it's a unit, it will center on it to ask you what to do with it.

"If i click (doubleclick?) any city-name in the overall national-manager; does that take me to that city´s indevidual city-manager?"

Yes it does.

"Can i build units/improvements also directly from the city-manager, or *must* i move up to the build-manager to do that?"

No, you need to click the build button on the bottom of the City window to toggle to that. Right clicking a city will bring up a menu list allowing you to choose what screen to bring up.

Have CTP-2 lots of On/Off tweak options (yes, i know about the text-files, but how about in-game options?). What im aiming at here that one should be able toggle all kinds of warning-messages.

You can toggle warings galore. For example the severe stuff like new government and famine in city, have a button on them asking never to show again, much like Explorer wanrings. I turned off the overwrite save and clear build list ones for example.

[Ralf]

Thanks Mad-Kat! Your info is appreciated.

quote: Originally posted by Mad-Kat on 11-18-2000 04:35 PM The game does not seem to always center on a unit even though it's set to do so from the options.

Its most probably a bug (and therefore a priority-fix in a upcoming patch - good!).

quote: I don't think it's going to stop and tell you every time something is built, only if there is an empty build queue.

If one use the building-queues the game dont *have* to stop each time - thats OK. I was merely asking if the game can be tweaked to halt and recenter each-and-every time any city-queue is empty. If it does that, then i am satisfied. This perhaps seems pretty obvious, but some reviewers here hinted othervise, you see.

quote: No, you need to click the build button on the bottom of the City window to toggle to that. Right clicking a city will bring up a menu list allowing you to choose what screen to bring up.

OK, fair enough. (i really like the rightclick-menus).

quote: You can toggle warnings galore. For example the severe stuff like new government and famine in city, have a button on them asking never to show again, much like Explorer warnings. I turned off the overwrite save and clear build list ones for example.

Lot of toggle-options? Great!

[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited November 18, 2000).]

[BigB]

After another four hours of playing, I'm still happy. The two of you (Mad-Kat and Rolf) bring up some issues that are important to me as well. The centering option is one of particular interest. Unfortunately, there does seem to be some sort of bug, because the game doesn't center a unit if it's already on the screen, even if it's on the edge of the screen. That needs to be fixed. I want it to center for every unit.

It seems to center the cities fairly well. But it isn't always easy to see that a city needs some action taken. The "Msg" tab lights up in red when there are new units built, or buildings. But it's easy to forget to look at the message. I prefer the Civ2/SMAC style of having the game cycle through every moveable unit, and go directly to each city which needs new orders built. That way, you don't miss important opportunities to move.

Some of this stuff is just a matter of getting accustomed to the CTP2 style of game. Those of us who love Civ2/SMAC are very spoiled because those two games are so friendly to the player. CTP2 seems to require a lot more patience and diligence (in its present form). That's not wrong or right; it's just the way it is. I can get used to it. But I definitely think that if the "centering" option is checked, then it should center! So there are still some minor issues to resolve with a patch.

Overall, nothing I've encountered has soured me on the CTP2 experience; this is the game I expected when I bought CTP originally. As games go, I'd say this one has fewer bugs than the usual first release. That's a very good sign. Activision seems very active in the forums, too, so that's also positive. Let's hope they keep it up!

[Ralf]

quote: Originally posted by BigB on 11-18-2000 06:09 PM It seems to center the cities fairly well. But it isn't always easy to see that a city needs some action taken.

Flashing units and flashing city-names (= units and cities on the map, without orders) could very easily take care of that.

quote: The "Msg" tab lights up in red when there are new units built, or buildings. But it's easy to forget to look at the message. I prefer the Civ2/SMAC style of having the game cycle through every moveable unit, and go directly to each city which needs new orders built. That way, you don't miss important opportunities to move.

Now, you having me confused BigB. I thought that *automatic* recentering issue was more or less solved, provided that one have AUTO-CYCLE toggled ON.

As i said before: "I dont want to be forced to use keystrokes to manually jump around from one orderless city (or unit) to the next. Can the game be tweaked to do that automatically?"

Both Civ-2 and SMAC had all kinds of *minor* feature tweaks in their patches, together with the usual bug-squashing issues, so i guess (and hope) the Activision-team will listen to us and do the same with their game.

[smellymummy]

does anyone know how we can turn the confirmation dialogues back ON, after the fact that the player clicks "Do not ask me this question again". I haven't clicked on that (Do not ask me this question again), fearing that I will do something stupid, like delete an important save game.

[Mad-Kat]

Under "Advanced" menu, click "Turn On All Messages". This resets any you clicked never to show back on again.

[meandean]

Got it wed night, so far I have to say that I am very impressed with this game, might be one of the best strategy games I ever purchased and I cut my teeth on the CBM-64 and Amiga. I believe those of you who are still waiting for your copy will be pleasantly surprised. It just seems so much more polished than CTP-1 was and I believe they broke new ground with diplomacy, expanding city sizes, queue updating and unit formations and possibly others as well. The interface is very well thought out and once you play for awhile its easy to get used to. I like playing without auto unit cycling or auto turns. I also like to play with the diffdb.txt edited to make the tech go very slowly, just my preference because I like to play with all the units for a long time in each era. Very impressed with the borders, nice job on that and it was sorely needed. I can only imagine the mods that will be out for this one, seems to be very customizable in that dept. Great site Mark & co!

[BigB]

quote: Originally posted by Ralf on 11-18-2000 07:04 PM Now, you having me confused BigB. I thought that *automatic* recentering issue was more or less solved, provided that one have AUTO-CYCLE toggled ON. As i said before: "I dont want to be forced to use keystrokes to manually jump around from one orderless city (or unit) to the next. Can the game be tweaked to do that automatically?"

I'm confused too. As I put more hours into playing, this is becoming a confusing issue. As I said earlier, it doesn't center the unit or city if it's already on the screen, even if it's right on the edge. And as for auto-cycling, you seem to have to initiate the cycling by hitting the "o" key. Once you do that, it does a good job of getting you to the unit you need to move. It takes you only to units that need action; inactive units are not cycled to (good). But you still have to go to the message tab (if it's red) to see which cities need action taken on their build queues. The color of those those city names on the map change also. There doesn't seem to be any cycling whatsoever for the cities. This is just a minor annoyance for me. I can deal with it, although it should be fixed.

My biggest complaint tonight is a problem I had with the original CTP. Every once in awhile, the game plays some music, like a fanfare as if something spectacular has happened. But no city seems to have built anything. You haven't completed a wonder. You have no new units. You haven't completed research on an advance. So I can't figure out what the music's for! And sometimes there's this sound like a stick whipping three times through the air, following by the sound of an aluminum can being tossed or kicked. I don't know what it's for! I notice that each time this particular sound occurred, I had built an academy or a diplomat. But why that particular sound? It doesn't seem to mean anything, or make any sense at all!

I'm still enjoying the game, though. I like the graphics, and the units are well-rendered. Even the Wonder movies aren't bad. The AI for diplomacy is outstanding, and the presence of true borders helps a great deal. The trade system is better than any Civ-style game so far, once you figure it out. I've noticed a couple of minor bugs with goal setting for advances, but I've seen other posts mentioning this, so I won't go into detail. I still recommend the game.

quote: Originally posted by BigB on 11-19-2000 03:52 AM And as for auto-cycling, you seem to have to initiate the cycling by hitting the "o" key.

i think that for the auto0-cycle to begin, you have to have selected a unit. if you click on the terrain and then hit the end-turn button, the focus from units will be lost and the auto-cycle will not start until you select a unit or hit "o"

quote: But you still have to go to the message tab (if it's red) to see which cities need action taken on their build queues.

you can easily go to the message tab by hiting "r"

quote: There doesn't seem to be any cycling whatsoever for the cities.

you mean if you have more than one cities with empty queues? i dont think so...

quote: Every once in awhile, the game plays some music, like a fanfare as if something spectacular has happened.

i believe you are hearing one of the sounds for victory in a battle, defeat, pirating, etc. my guess is that it something the ai did and if you dont have "show enemy moves" ON the game will not re-center to show the action

[Ralf]

quote: Originally posted by MarkG on 11-19-2000 04:51 AM If you click on the terrain and then hit the end-turn button, the focus from units will be lost and the auto-cycle will not start until you select a unit or hit "o"

Is there any reasons whatsoever, then the player *dont* want to give orders to cities and units without orders?

If there answer to this is NO, then *why* forcing the player to hit the "o" key in order to "initiate" such a obvious cycle process each and every new turn?

quote: you can easily go to the message tab by hiting "r"

The problem MarkG, is about reducing the amount of manual labour for the player:

Automatic recentering on flashing (no orders) units and likewise flashing cities is an imidiate and very intuitive ONE STEP process.

Hitting the "r" key, *then* read a message-tab, and *then* look around which of the 6-8 cities within that map section that has a name turned yellow, is a THREE STEP process, that, on top of that, also involves lot of erratic eye-movements.

Hitting "r" by the way: You mean that the message-tab dont pop up automatically? So, the player HAS to grab the mouse (or hit the key) to open it *manually* each and every time it goes red?

I really HOPE that Activision is going to add/fix all of above, in an upcoming needed patch.

quote: you mean if you have more than one cities with empty queues? i dont think so...

So if the second, third and fourth city within that same game-turn, needs any new orders according to the message-tab - the player just have to *manually* drag around the map in order to *manually* search for that elusive city with the name turned yellow?

No automatic cycling/recentering on these cities, heh?

-----------------------------------------------------
I heard lot of good things so far about the scenario-editor, the diplomacy, the trade, the battle-screen and so on.

Thats absolutely great!

But such simple things like automatic cycle-through recentering on each and evey flashing no-orders unit (unless at "sleep"), and ALSO automatically on each and every flashing (or city-screen pop-up) no-orders city as well.

Activision: Nope! Cant have that.

Now, dont missunderstand: the queues, the mayors and the national manager all seems very great. But, why couldnt it coexist with above ideas???

[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited November 19, 2000).]

quote: Originally posted by Ralf on 11-19-2000 07:14 AM Is there any reasons whatsoever, then the player *dont* want to give orders to cities and units without orders? If there answer to this is NO, then *why* forcing the player to hit the "o" key in order to "initiate" such a obvious cycle process each and every new turn?

as i said, this doesnt occur always. it looks like more like a bug than a feature....

quote: So if the second, third and fourth city within that same game-turn, needs any new orders according to the message-tab - the player just have to *manually* drag around the map in order to *manually* search for that elusive city with the name turned yellow?

i wasnt clear: the "i dont think so" was referring to the comment that there is no autocylicing for more than one empty-queue cities. there IS.

quote: Hitting the "r" key, *then* read a message-tab, and *then* look around which of the 6-8 cities within that map section that has a name turned yellow, is a THREE STEP process, that, on top of that, also involves lot of erratic eye-movements.

beyond the auto-cycle, you can hit "f2" and spot on the list of cities the ones with "EMPTY" on the column that list what they produce

quote: Hitting "r" by the way: You mean that the message-tab dont pop up automatically? So, the player HAS to grab the mouse (or hit the key) to open it *manually* each and every time it goes red?

no, the opened tab stays where it is, it doesnt switch to the message tab automatically on the begining of each turn.

[Ralf]

quote: Originally posted by MarkG on 11-19-2000 09:19 AM [quote]i wasnt clear: the "i dont think so" was referring to the comment that there is no autocylicing for more than one empty-queue cities. there IS.

quote: beyond the auto-cycle, you can hit "f2" and spot on the list of cities the ones with "EMPTY" on the column that list what they produce

I guess your are refeering to the National manager.
If i can click/doubleclick? any such listed empty cities and by that jump directly to that City-manager/Build-manager (and have the overall National manager-screen still open), then adding units and improvements at the end of each turn, it would be as easy as 1-2-3.

quote: no, the opened tab stays where it is, it doesnt switch to the message tab automatically on the begining of each turn.

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I still would prefer having a big all-in-one city-screen automatically popped up in my face like in Civ-2/SMAC - but above is good enough compromise for me.
Until activision starts to ask for bug-reports and feature-tweaking requests for an upcoming game-patch, that is.

[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited November 19, 2000).]

quote: Originally posted by Ralf on 11-19-2000 09:46 AM I guess your are refeering to the National manager. If i can click/doubleclick? any such listed empty cities and by that jump directly to that City-manager/Build-manager (and have the overall National manager-screen still open), then adding units and improvements at the end of each turn, it would be as easy as 1-2-3.

yes, i'm referring to the national manager.
double click on the city name in the list recenters the map.
single click(or selection of more than one cities) and the click on the "build manager button" will open up the the build manager(the national manager remains open)

a "city manager" button on the same screeen(national) would be welcome though...

quote: quote: no, the opened tab stays where it is, it doesnt switch to the message tab automatically on the begining of each turn.

why are you smiling? i said that the messsage tab does NOT open up automatically(of course if you already had it open it will stay open )