First impressions...

[XMon]

It appears to me that players who didn't care for CTP really like CTP2 and those who really liked CTP have some misgivings about CPT2. Well, I really enjoyed CTP so...

There are some really awesome things about this new game and if you've read any of these posts in this forum, you know what I'm talking about. The diplomacy is much more interesting, the map is great with nice graphics and the layout looks more realistic (no "one tile of desert" stuck in the middle of thousands of miles of grasslands or tiles of tundra located next to jungle etc) and all the extra available info is cool. The "name an Army" function is really great but it would impress me more if that name floated above the stack on the map (like with the cities).

Gripes? I LIKED the CTP interface just fine. MOST of the new interface is OK, just different and will take some getting some used to. One thing I don't care for is the new message box. I prefer the old message icons popping up on the left side of the screen. It also seems to be a little more difficult (takes more clicks) to manage city production. I'm not into micromanagement but I like to keep tabs on what my cities are building and it takes a few more steps to do it with the new interface. I didn't care much for the new click and drag way of moving units, but then I discovered the "m" hot key and I'm OK with that method. I'm also disappointed in the previously mentioned fact that the AI often seems to ignore that that they have agreed to withdraw from your lands. Sometimes they withdraw and come back two turns later and sometimes they don't withdraw at all. I'd rather they just reject my proposal than agree and then ignore it.

Those are minor gripes. My biggest gripe (and I never thought about it until I played the game) is that the borders extend over ocean tiles just as far as they do over land. May not sound like a big deal to you, but when I play I like to play as a major explorer. When other civs are making settlers and expanding, I usually make units to explore, explore, explore. Hunt for those villages and ruins! Travelling the oceans now requires that you peeve everybody off. You can't get anywhere without going through someone's territory. Also, these borders can extend over water onto another continent causing even more problems. For example, I'm on a large continent and the English are on an island with one tile of shallow water separating us. Well, their borders overlap onto my continent just a short distance from my capital, even though they have no naval ability and can't even see those tiles as they cannot put a unit over there. This means they resent me for having cities on their continent (even though it's MY continent). And it makes it more difficult for me to expand in a natural way. It's one thing if they send over units to claim the land, but for a backward little civ that can't even travel on the water to have claim over land that they don't even know exists or can reach with units is kind of silly. I don't think a mod will be able to fix this. My ideal would be for borders to be set as they are on now land but to only be able to extend one tile into the sea. It sounds to me like that would be difficult to do but I'm not a programmer so what do I know. This would be more realistic and allow ocean travel to be a little easier to conduct without angering everybody. It would also prevent civs from laying claim to land on continents that they cannot even see or know exists. That's my big gripe tho...

Oh, another smaller gripe. I'm in the early stages of the game and the Scots sailed over to my continent (easy level game - I was the only civ starting on a large land mass) and founded a city. That's OK with me, I would've never filled this whole continent anyway...the thing is, they now resent me for having cities on their continent. Excuse me, but I was here first bub! I'm afraid this new info on foreign civs' attitudes towards me is going to make me into a very surly warlike emperor!

Overall, I like the game quite a bit and I'm sure it will grow on me more the longer I play it. That thing with the borders extending over ocean bugs me though...

[Chronus]

This is hilarious ... the borders reaching across water, that is.

However, I do like the idea of civilizations agreeing not to tresspass, only to break this 2 turns later. No, I don't want all the civs to do that ... but having one in every game does kind of spice things up. And it reflects the reality of human nature.

Likewise, having that other civ land on your continent and then claim that it's theirs is also humorous ... and realistic (sorry, folks, as you may have read in my other posts, I'm on a "realistic" trip here). It brings to mind the Europeans landing in the New World and then basically telling the natives to move out. They may not have said this diplomatically, but their actions showed otherwise.

[XMon]

Well this is just turning into a big kill-for-all! And I'm on EASY level! No matter what cease fires or "withdraw troops" agreements I make...everyone keeps storming my borders...so I keep killing them. I'm bummed no one will honor our agreements but I've got no problem warring with 'em. One thing that's different from CTP1 is that if...say...the Native Americans bring two ships to my shore and each one unloads an Archer unit...and my Great Southern Army walks over and annihilates one Archer...the other Archer jumps on the boat and hightails it out of there! That would've never happened in CTP! I've finally discovered the ability to create Fire Triremes (for those who don't have the game, the first naval unit, the Coracle, cannot attack...it is a transport only unit) and I can finally set up a coastal line of defense on the edge of the deep water. The AI is definitely better at war but I'm not all that impressed with their ability to NOT TRESPASS! Reminds me a bit of MedMod/Awesome AIPs. I don't know why its so hard for the AI to honor the treaties. In one turn (I was only at war with the English), the Scots rolled up on my shore and unloaded an Archer, the Irish unloaded a Settler and the Germans came up to the beach. I killed the Scottish Archer and am getting ready to kill the Irish Settler and I made a mistake and thought that the German ship was Native American (the color is close) and killed them. The Germans and Japanese were my friends (whoaaa...no wonder everyone hates me now that I think about it...) but I accidentally killed the German ship (shouldn't have been in my borders anyway tho...) and now I think I'm at war with everyone except the Japanese who don't even have ships to invade my land.

If the foreign civs are such AHoles in Easy mode...how will they be in the harder modes?

quote: Originally posted by XMon on 11-18-2000 11:00 PM Those are minor gripes. My biggest gripe (and I never thought about it until I played the game) is that the borders extend over ocean tiles just as far as they do over land.

in real life there are borders over the sea too. i think.

[MSB]

True enough, they do, but they don't normally impede sea traffic except in times of war.

Can you make agreements with other Civs that allow you to travel through their territory (on land or sea? That'd be a useful option.

[Ralf]

quote: Originally posted by XMon on 11-18-2000 11:00 PM That thing with the borders extending over ocean bugs me though...

Remember SMAC? The borders *didnt* extended over ocean, and as a result the AI-civs founded new bases directly outside your base-areas, with huge overlapings as an constantly annoiyng consequence.

I think that borders extending over ocean-tiles (and uninhabitad land-tiles on nearby islands) is a reasonably good compromise. You vill perhaps appriciate it more in late end-games, then the AI-civs have the ability to found ocean-cities.

The SMAC-alternative is definitly worse.

I HOPE however that CTP-2 allows civil non-war ships to pass through without diplomatic consequences (provided that you not in war whith that AI-Civ, of course). If not - Activision could tweak that in an upcoming patch.

[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited November 19, 2000).]

quote: Originally posted by MSB on 11-19-2000 04:06 AM Can you make agreements with other Civs that allow you to travel through their territory (on land or sea? That'd be a useful option.

you cant and yes, that would be very helpfull

the only way you can do it is if you're allied with that civ(of course)

quote: Originally posted by Ralf on 11-19-2000 04:12 AM I HOPE however that CTP-2 allows civil non-war ships to pass through without diplomatic consequences (provided that you not in war whith that AI-Civ, of course). If not - Activision could tweak that in an upcoming patch.

the thing is that a non-war(transport) ship can carry land units instead of a peacefull diplomat....

[Chronus]

Okay, XMON, I have a silly question of concern. Are these AIs invading your space (after border agreements are made, of course) AND ignoring your demands to leave? Or is the "demand to leave" feature not supported in CTP2?!!

Is the "'withdraw troops' agreement" the same as demanding AI units to leave in CTP1 or Civ2?

[Ralf]

quote: Originally posted by MarkG on 11-19-2000 04:55 AM the thing is that a non-war(transport) ship can carry land units instead of a peacefull diplomat....

Oops! I didnt think of that.

[XMon]

MarkG: Yeah, borders do extend out to sea but not this far! I think one tile would be fair. If the real world were like CTP2 then when the Mayans built their first pyramid on the Yucatan Peninsula they would've immediately gained control of Florida, Cuba and the whole Gulf of Mexico!

Ralf: No, you cannot travel through their waters without them getting mad at you. When I first made contact with the English, my little empty Coracle continued to move up their coast (in their borders) and they quickly grew angry with me. It is conceivable that with the "shallow water only" ships, that you could make contact with a civ and it would be impossible to get out of their borders before making them mad. Someone noted in another post that they can't even deliver diplomats via ship to throw receptions without making the AI civ mad. He said that one civ even declared war on him while he was trying to deliver a diplomat.

Chronus: The only request/demand is to "withdraw troops." If they agree, they are agreeing to honor your borders. CTP2 doesn't have that feature where the offending unit disappears to the nearest city. Here's an example: the Native Americans had a Warrior unit which came across land into my borders. I politely asked them to leave and they said OK. The unit turned around and walked away (and apparently got killed by barbarians, I was going to follow him to see where he came from, and all I found was some barbarian warriors severely injured). About five turns later, a Native American Coracle sails up to my shore and unloads an Archer right next to my capital city. Of course, I had them killed immediately.

A couple more things: the slaver is supposed to be stealth, and it is, and the little unit even walks around saying "they'll never know what hit 'em!" yet they do. If you capture some foreign citizens for slavery, they know you did it. I thought that maybe I could get away with slaving a civ that I had not established contact with yet. Nope. I finally made contact with the Germans and right off the bat they resented me. The intelligence screen said they "resent us, rightfully so, for enslaving their citizens." "Rightfully so" it said...I love it, my own intelligence service chastising me for slaving!

How come naval battles don't get the battle screen? Did they have that in CTP1? I've been playing the Med Mod versions lately so maybe it was only in Med Mod that ships battled on the battle screen. I had a stack of two Fire Triremes attack a Coracle (a few times) and there was no battle screen.

I wonder if there could be a fix that would allow the AI to get less angry over trespassing of sea tiles than it does land tiles. That would certainly help. Maybe later in the timeline the AI civs aren't as volatile and don't get angry so quickly, we'll see. Until then, I will continue to kill them all. Peace is not an option unless I allow them to walk all over me.

[Chronus]

Hmmmm ... gee, I recall in CTP1 that once a Civ agreed not to tresspass, the agreement was in force from 5 - 10 turns. There was a place in the Diplomacy screen to see how many turns remained for the agreement. Is this still available? If a civ breaks this agreement, are you notified?

[Cyrius]

RAlf is deffinately right about the "sea-city creep" remember, we do have sea cities in this game and if borders didn't go out into the water we'd deffinately have problems with that. Although, I also agree you should be able to sail non-combat ships through enemy territory. Even if the transport has 4 units of marines stored on board, you should be able to sail through. I mean, you aren't realy moving marines into enemy territory unless you take them out of the transport. Hey, I don't see anything wrong with a suprise attack.

With respect to the slavers, I belive the manual states that if a unconventional warfare unit is discovered, it will hurt diplomatic relations. Makes sense with stuff like slavers and terrorists, but hope it doesn't apply to clerics or corprate branches (are corporates in CTP2? I don't know actually... hope so!). I mean, when Iranians blow up British planes, the British don't get real happy with Iran... But, when American corporations set up branches in Britian, I don't think the British decide to declare war on the U.S. ;-) Another thing with respect to slavers, people can probably tell where the citizens get carried off to. Heck, I got the fortune of capturing a city that had enslaved some of my people. "Do you wish to free the slaves?" it said, or something like that. Heck ya! I thought. That was cool.

Chronus: Anser to yor first question is No. No mention of how much longer it lasts. It appears like no tresspass agrements are more like a deadline for everyone to get out. Like when I agreed to remove my people from another nation but didn't, I didn't see any repurcusions for a long time, until finally I got a message that said I failed to remove my troops from enemy territory. Which was usually immediately followed by a decleration of war. When I told another nation not to tresspass, its troops just stuck around my empire. I don't know what happens when deadlines expire in this situation, since I always declared war and slaughtered the tresspassers before the treaty expired.

Another thing that ticked me off was how incredibly hard it was to get a nation to agree to a no-tresspass treaty. I offered peace, offered 1200 gold, offered map, and still they refused. And I was stronger! I finally had to go stick a warrior right next to their city, then they asked for a no-tresspass, and I countered with my request for a no-tresspass. They accepted, I moved mine out, they didn't, and I slaughtered them all anyways. Hehe.

XMon are you sure you didn't get a battlescreen for the naval battle? How bizzare - I swear I saw a screenshot with a bunch of ships attacking land units at a city. Maybe see if "show all battles in battle screen" option is on? I dunno. I hope this isn't true, or it'd be real annyoing in the modern age!
[This message has been edited by Cyrius (edited November 19, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Cyrius (edited November 19, 2000).]

quote: Originally posted by XMon on 11-19-2000 02:12 PM MarkG: Yeah, borders do extend out to sea but not this far! I think one tile would be fair. If the real world were like CTP2 then when the Mayans built their first pyramid on the Yucatan Peninsula they would've immediately gained control of Florida, Cuba and the whole Gulf of Mexico!

that depends on size of the map actually

quote: Originally posted by Cyrius on 11-19-2000 03:32 PM Chronus: Anser to yor first question is No. No mention of how much longer it lasts. It appears like no tresspass agrements are more like a deadline for everyone to get out.

actually, all treaties are now permanent(until broken of course)
therefore, when you to agree to a tresspass agreement, you agree to never tresspass again

quote: Another thing that ticked me off was how incredibly hard it was to get a nation to agree to a no-tresspass treaty. I offered peace, offered 1200 gold, offered map, and still they refused. And I was stronger! I finally had to go stick a warrior right next to their city, then they asked for a no-tresspass, and I countered with my request for a no-tresspass. They accepted, I moved mine out, they didn't, and I slaughtered them all anyways. Hehe.

yeah, i'm tend to think that you have to prove your might, even make a small war or an embargo in order to start to appreciate you

[Mr Ogre]

You don't get the battle screen when you attack a stack consisting entirely of non-combat (0 attack strength) units. They just die. A coracle is one such unit. They would not be able to damage your units, showing the battle would be pointless.

If you find someone's borders extending across the sea into your land, you can still settle inside his borders to reclaim it. You CAN settle inside another nation's borders, the only restriction is that you can't settle inside another city's influence. As a city grows, it will claim any territory for itself and for its nation that is not yet claimed by another city. It will never take land away from another city, however.

The rules for forts may not be obvious either - you can build a fort anywhere in your own territory (like any improvement) but also on any unclaimed land anywhere in the world as long as you are able to see that land at the time you start building. So if you can't get a settler out to build a city to claim some outlying parts of your continent, get any unit at all out there and build a fort. It won't reclaim anything from another nation, but it will help you consolidate your land until you can get cities everywhere.


quote: Originally posted by Mr Ogre on 11-19-2000 03:52 PM You CAN settle inside another nation's borders, the only restriction is that you can't settle inside another city's influence.

yeah, i've done that....
not sure if the opponent dislikes it....

btw, what's with the "they resent the fact that your nation hold teritorry on their continent" message? i started right here mister, what do you want me to do?

[Cyrius]

quote: actually, all treaties are now permanent(until broken of course) therefore, when you to agree to a tresspass agreement, you agree to never tresspass again

Mark, how do you explain what happened to me then? Why did I get the message "Sir, we have failed to remove our troops from the XXXX's territory. They dislike us now", and thereafter find no treaty icon on the diplomacy screen?

quote: You don't get the battle screen when you attack a stack consisting entirely of non-combat (0 attack strength) units. They just die. A coracle is one such unit.

:O Wow! Good thinking Ogre. Yup, non-combats just die. Very cool, really.

quote: The rules for forts may not be obvious either - you can build a fort anywhere in your own territory (like any improvement) but also on any unclaimed land anywhere in the world as long as you are able to see that land at the time you start building.

WOW! You gota be kidding me! Cool! Heheh.

BTW, does anyone know if airfields can be built like this? They were useless in CTP1 because you had to put them near a friendly city. If we can now build them anywhere we can see, that would be a great boon!

Also, are their any other territory-expanding improvements?

Do units heal faster in a fort, like they would in a city?
[This message has been edited by Cyrius (edited November 19, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Cyrius (edited November 19, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Cyrius (edited November 19, 2000).]

quote: Originally posted by Cyrius on 11-19-2000 04:45 PM quote: actually, all treaties are now permanent(until broken of course) therefore, when you to agree to a tresspass agreement, you agree to never tresspass again Mark, how do you explain what happened to me then? Why did I get the message "Sir, we have failed to remove our troops from the XXXX's territory. They dislike us now", and thereafter find no treaty icon on the diplomacy screen?

i have never goten such a message. beyond that, what you're saying tells me that you have a set amount of turns to comply to the agreement(e.g. get your units out). if this doesnt happen the agreement is considered broken

ah, found the string in dip2_str.txt as the REGARD_EVENT_WITHDRAW_TROOPS_VIOLATION

quote: They are upset and mistrustful of us, due to our lack of follow through. We have failed to remove our troops from their soil as per our agreement with them.

[Cyrius]

I belive what you have written is what shows under intellegience in the diplomacy screen. I actually recived a pop up; I think I did anyways. Maybe I was wrong I suppose. But I swear, i got a popup.... funky.

[Azmel2]

quote: Originally posted by MarkG on 11-19-2000 04:55 AM Originally posted by Ralf on 11-19-2000 04:12 AM I HOPE however that CTP-2 allows civil non-war ships to pass through without diplomatic consequences (provided that you not in war whith that AI-Civ, of course). If not - Activision could tweak that in an upcoming patch. the thing is that a non-war(transport) ship can carry land units instead of a peacefull diplomat....

Right Mark. The rule for when the AI gets mad is that they won't get mad about an EMPTY transport ship, but
will get mad if it has anything in it, including a diplomat. The reason is, they just know it has cargo, and don't know if it's a diplomat or army.

Hope that helps,

-- Richard

[Azmel2]

quote: Originally posted by MarkG on 11-19-2000 07:13 PM ah, found the string in dip2_str.txt as the REGARD_EVENT_WITHDRAW_TROOPS_VIOLATION [QUOTE]They are upset and mistrustful of us, due to our lack of follow through. We have failed to remove our troops from their soil as per our agreement with them.

Right again. Most treaties have about a 20 turn grace period. If you haven't complied with that time then the AI dislikes you for not following through.

-- Richard

[This message has been edited by Azmel2 (edited November 19, 2000).]

[Drakenred]

quote: Originally posted by Azmel2 on 11-19-2000 10:18 PM Right Mark. The rule for when the AI gets mad is that they won't get mad about an EMPTY transport ship, but will get mad if it has anything in it, including a diplomat. The reason is, they just know it has cargo, and don't know if it's a diplomat or army. Hope that helps, -- Richard

Actualy it is a bit odd

you put any stealth unit they suposedly cant see(and yes i did use the Cheat function to test this out) on a transport, they get mad at you, becuas they can now magicaly see all stealth units becuase they are on a transport.

looks like im going to have to modify the .Txt to see if i can make the diplomat an anphibian!(Growling)

[hexagonian]

...not really

They see 'a' unit - they cannot determine the 'type' of unit.

[XMon]

Hey, I was looking in the diplomacy.txt file and found this section re: regard penalties for events:

quote: // regard cost or bonus for selected events IncursionRegardCost -100 IncursionOfAllieRegardCost -200 InvaderMovementRegardCost -10 PerRoutePiracyRegardCost -10 ShareContinentRegardCost -2 InciteRevolutionRegardCost -60 AssassinateRulerRegardCost -60 FranchiseCityRegardCost -40 PlantNukeRegardCost -150 SlaveRaidRegardCost -50 LawsuitRegardCost -30 ExpelUnitsRegardCost -10 NukeCityRegardCost -250 ConvertCityRegardCost -50 EnslaveSettlerRegardCost -60 UndergroundRailwayRegardCost -60 InciteUprisingRegardCost -60 BioInfectedCityRegardCost -70 PlagueCityRegardCost -70 NanoInfectCityRegardCost -100 CreateParkRegardCost -250 InjoinCityRegardCost -50 PillageRegardCost -50

There's more to it but...isn't "Incursion" trespassing? Or is it something else? If so, then trespassing gives the same loss of regard as nano-attack! Seems a bit harsh, eh? What do you think "IncursionOfAllieRegardCost" means? The only other thing I see that could be related to trespassing is the "InvaderMovementRegardCost" which seems more reasonable at -10. Maybe incursion is to attack a city, I don't know, though there is a "TakeCityRegardCost" (-100). I'm thinking now that (supposing that trespassing=InvaderMovementRegardCost) it's the initial neutrality between nations that causes the negative regard to pile up so quickly. Since it takes a while to get Diplomats into the game it's more difficult to build up regard in the beginning of the game to offset the negative regard you get for trespassing.

Mr Ogre: Thanks for the info. I forgot about that aspect of battle. Is a Coracle considered a "civilian" unit? FYI for players: you can't run around killing settlers anymore, even if you're at war with the civ you get a -50 regard penalty for killing "civilians!" I think that's a penalty with all nations losing regard for you btw. It does bring up an interesting new strategy (not exactly new but with new possible ramifications) of what to do with those settler units you get while tearing down captured enemy cities. Thanks also for the info on the forts. Very cool idea. I know I can settle in their borders having done it, but can they settle in mine? The other civs have sent settlers into my lands but I kill them before they have a chance to settle. Another FYI for players: not being one to read manuals, I missed this until I was looking at the diplomacy.txt file, you will take a regard penalty (-20) if you attack any units without declaring war the turn before. If you are not at war with a civ and want to kill a unit(s) you must declare war and then wait until the next turn to attack or you take the penalty. I like this. It adds to the strategy.

The .txt and .slc files (from my cursory glance) appear to be wonderfully organized and a wealth of info for modding. I want to play 4 or 5 games of regular CTP2 and the scenarios before I go monkeying around with the files tho...

thanks for the finding XMon!

i'm chaning this two to 0

quote: ShareContinentRegardCost -2

hey, lots of civs can live in the same contintent, deal with it!

quote: ExpelUnitsRegardCost -10

what? you're sending spies to steal my techs and you get angry if i expel them? no way....

[Drakenred]

quote: Originally posted by hexagonian on 11-20-2000 11:58 AM ...not really They see 'a' unit - they cannot determine the 'type' of unit.

i know that they see "A" unit, its just that to me it seems odd that the stealth units(witch are in reality only 1-5 people) on a boat will somehow be detected the same as a military unit that represends 500-1,000 people!

Drakenred