The Wonders...my impressions

[Smash]

No particular order:

Collosus-a good wonder.Longer term in nature but double trade pays dividends later on.City location decides how effective it will be.

The Gardens-another good wonder.Great for sleazers or early expansionists in general.

The Lighthouse-not one of my favs but if you get steam before magnet you get vet ironclads.Good for the expansionist.

The Great Library-single player-forget it-Mp a good wonder as most players are after Mono so if your goal is different you get Myst,phil etc.

The Pyramids-on deity,I find the pop growth hard to keep up with.but if built with The Gardens or Mich's you may have something.

The Great Wall-a wortwhile wonder if you feel threatened.Free city walls should mean you will stay in any MP game at least until Mettalurgy.

The Oracle-no good.I can't tell you how many times I've seen it obsolete before it has even been built.

Marco Polo's Embassey-A good wonder also.Great for trading and monitoring progress.

War Academy-one of my favs.Lasts a long time.Veterans make the difference in a relatively even battle and every city can produce them without the upkeep of barracks

Cope's Observatory-a great wonder in the right city.Great science boost.

Leo's-I have mixed feelings on this one.It would be awesome if new updates didn't lose vet status.But a good wonder I spose.My favorite updates:warriors to muskets-horsemen to knights-boat updates cept maybe ironclads to destroyers-settlers to engineers

KRC-good wonder but expires too quickly so I pass on it.

Magellan's-excellent wonder.The more water the better.I really like this one.

Isaac Newton's-another good one,especially when built in the same city as Cope's.Add a library and university and you are rockin.

Mich's Chapel-a very strong wonder.I don't think it is a game breaker as many do,but definitely one you like to have.Although I've given up trying to be first to it.

JSB-similiar to mich's but not quite as strong until population levels get bigger.Both of these wonders can save a ton of time building temples,colliseums,cathedrals etc,if you plan to go Democracy,otherwise the "poor man's" Mich's--Communism

Shakes-good wonder for OCC or Democracy.

SOL-this wonder can be used to great advantage if your civ can maintain a strong democracy.Switching back and forth a few times with 1 turn revolutions can be very advatageous at times.Commie is also a good government early on,Suped up monarchy.Might be your only hope if playing deity and others have the "happy" wonders.

Adam Smith's-who can't use the extra gold?Not a must have but a "nice to have" wonder.

Eiffel Tower-you've got to be kidding

Darwin's-yes-but usually the tech leader gets this so the gap widens.If I build it I am probably doing something right.

Women's Sufferage-not for me.Democracy's would be better suited supporting their armies from a city with Shakes.IMO

Hoover Dam-awesome wonder-again the tech leader usually gets it so the gap widens further

UN-nice movie but not much other use.Against the ai I certainly don't need the forced cease fire by then and have set up embassys "manually"

Manhatten Project-Another neat movie but I don't need nukes against the ai and in MP everybody usually retreats into their cities when it arrives.I do like the warning siren and explosion when nukes are used.I don't like cleaning up after though.

Seti-same deal,tech leader gets it.good wonder though.

Cure for Cancer-better if you could get it earlier along a different tech path than mono.Again don't need it by the time it is available.

Apollo-kinda hard to build a spaceship without it.

Did I forget any?

[finbar]

Don't think so. Have to agree with just about everything.

* Pyramids are a liability on Deity without the happiness wonders.

* Lighthouse is vital for early exploration and trade if you're isolated in the middle of a big bath. Conversely, a waste of time if you're not.

* Love Marco. Particularly now the Mac version map trading with the AI glitch has been fixed.

* Remain confused about GL. Certainly unnecessary against the AI, suspect otherwise against humans.

* Leo's. Really really handy, not the end of the world without it, even against humans.

* Eiffel Tower. Why does it exist? To further the myth that other Civs' attitude towards you means something. Civ 3 should replace it with something more meaningful.

* SOL. Incerdibly useful when you're a fat Democracy and you forget to appease one of your revolting cities. Worth building for that alone!

* Women's Suffrage. Never. (Don't take that the wrong way)

* War Academy. Might be handier than I've thought in the past. Must look into it.

Interesting to re-examine attitudes to these from time to time.



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finbar
Mono Rules!
#33984591

[Smash]

GL is a great wonder against alliances.Anything they trade you "steal".At least until electricity.

Of course it can be used against you when you are researching a "crucial" tech.They can flood you with unnecessary stuff.But only once usually.

For MP,I think the pros outweigh the cons.

ask me again next month....

[War4ever]

colosus great early for maintaining that quick science research lead and lets face it .... it lasts for along time and if you establish trade routes your laughing.

Lighthouse.... only if on an island

Hang Garden.... ics sleeze oh yeah... allows WLTKD in at least one city and prevents disorder in all new cities

Pyramids.... tricky on deity but i have won and attributed my win to that extra growth

Great Wall.... very good for the ics too because of the walls especially when barbs are your main concern early on.

Great Library is good against alliances and filling missed techs... allows you to specialize your path.... is great for a civ who doesn't want to be noticed but is quietly becoming powerfull

Oracle.... obsolete way too quick .... besides MIkes is beter

King Richards... again is obsolete too quick.... very powerful when matched with Shakespear.... but i never build the production city so... why bother

Shakes.... you can never go wrong with a city that never has disorder especiallly if democracy is involved

Copernicus.... i am not a super science city guy.... attracts too much attention IMO... besides i take colossus away from these poeple

Issac Newtons... same as above .... but obvously dangerous if rival builds with the other science wonders

Sun Tzus Veterans are the difference btween victory and defeat and lasts along time and i am a warmonger.... mixed early with shake and KRC.... great counter against the super science.... still hard for me to always build

Mikes chapel.. easily the most sought after wonder.... if i can i will

Bachs.... same as above.... take one doesn't really matter although Mikes is a little bit better

Leos.... i hate the loss of vet status but the upgrades are great especially if you have sun tzus.... to replace the vet status after victory... this is when you hope hordes of barbs will come along to upgrade for you..

Magellens... i have never been much of a sea guy... so i often overlook this wonder... which is probably a mistake..... can be more valuable at keeping probing enemy ships off your cost ..... a must have if there is even a moderate amount of water

eiffel tower should be kept but its effects changed .... it is useless as tits on a bull

Darwin Voyage... I would rather just steal the tech myself

Marcos... is great for the esstablished embassy... initial contact ... map sharing alliances especially before some one build the G library. Essential for a large map.

Womens Sufferage... i can live without....

UN again i already have the dips established or else if you have excess money or shields /caravans and didn't set up embassy's it s great for the same reason as Marco polo but most often i don't need it

Cure For Cancer.... i think this wonder comes too late in the game to be of any use to me....

Hoover..... your laughing if ;you can build it first and winning

Manhattan... if i get nukes before you.... and you don't have laser.... your DEAD MEAT
hehe.... and i don't care about pollution

SEti.... again first to this usually means first place so... save yourself the dough on research labs..... any wonder that benifits all cities from a cost is probably a safe bet

Statue of Liberty... the former pyramids of CIV.... commie is great and can greatly widen your lead

Adam SMith.... FAB U LOUS.... save you money on anything costing 1G but most importantly means that every city can have free library... hear that FREE LIBRARY.... FREE LIBRARY WERE #1 in SCIENCE hehe

Apollo... i love the whole map being revealed and obviously for you pacifist who always build the space ship DUH its necessary

BTW my opinion are for MP only and although many will disagree with my opinions, i prefer to get to monarchy quick ... go for Philosophy and then quietly build my empire. I feel that going for all the major science wonders and happiness wonders brings other humans on your back to quickly and makes you a targer... steal the tech it's cheeper and easier. BE strong and quiet not supreme and a target. There is time for conquest later.
[This message has been edited by War4ever (edited November 29, 1999).]

[finbar]

Ain't that the beauty of this game? So many different - legitimate, successful - methods.

Good point about the GL against an alliance, Smash. And War4ever, too. I'll add it to my armory. Well, okay, that means I'll finally have something in my armory.

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finbar
Mono Rules!
#33984591

[Scouse Gits]

After reading the above I am starting to re-evaluate my thinking about some wonders. If I could only build one it would be the Statue of Liberty.
Can anyone help with this "wonder puzzle"? It concerns J.S.Bach's Cathedral. On the tech-tree for Theology it allows JSB which it describes as follows:
"Adds one content citizen to every city that has a cathedral"
BUT in the Civilopedia section on wonders it is described as:
"Decreases the number of unhappy citizens in every friendly city on the continent by two per city"
Which is correct?
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Scouse Git (2)

[Havelock Vetinari]

Both in a way.
Theology gives a +1 bonus to happy chruch-goers. Same as +1 electronics bonus for stadia...communism has a -1 "bonus" to cathedral effect incidently.
JSB has the 2 citizens thing.

Hope this helps

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May you live in Interesting Times...

[jpk]

My comments concern playing against the AI.

I think that Women's Sufferage is a great wonder for a Democracy because every city can contribute one unit to the war effort. I see no reason to depend upon one city with Shakespeare to support the entire army.

Magellan is useful when plyaying on a multicontinent world. You can deliver caravans so much faster.

I like Adam Smith because it allows me to increase my luxury rate without hurting my science. That way my cities can grow like dandelions in the summertime.

[Miner]

JSB decreases 2 unhappy people EVERYWHERE not just on the same continent. This makes it the second best happiness Wonder, after Mikes.

As stated, discovering Theology increases the effect of Cathedrals (or Mikes) by 1 person. Communism does the opposite.

[Smash]

jpk-every city does contribute units.They are then re-supported from the Shakes city.Build it in a high sheild site.Not 1 unhappy ever because of units in the feild.I find it quite useful.

[Sten Sture]

Smash et al - if you use the Shakes field army, make sure you get the Shakes city defense forces from another city to increase your supportable army size. No need to use up shield support for them. I am a big fan of small cities in a shield rich area with MC to support my demo army, a tactic I picked up from these boards.

I think MC and JSB are extremely important no matter what type of game you play. And the earlier you get them the better.

In regular games, I have become a big fan of the happy Science city Coper, Newts, Shakes ever since I started playing OCC. Against the AI I will concentrate on that first, I have even started building the GW so I can go to Rep early and defend with just one Phalanx. If I find an early city site with better long term potential than my capital, I will switch from building the Colossus in my capital to the HG or GW.

My third favorite wonder combination is LH and Magellan, the movement benefit helps a ton on getting those trade caravans back and forth quickly.

[geofelt]

I play against the AI, and I would agree with most wonder assesments with a few exceptions.
Pyramids are under appreciated in deity play. After Hanging gardens, I go after pyramids. I like to expand, and I expand better early with pyramids. I build more settlers before the city gets too big.
I like the great library. If you get ahead, the AI will not trade with you, so the GL fills in the techs you need. It's just easier.
Darwins does not seem to be worth it.
I love magellans, if there is some water, and most times there is. You can do without it, but life is easier with it.
Shield production, not techs, is what keeps me from building all the wonders I want. KRC helps a bunch with this. I try to build this in a city with lots of food, and not so much shields. You can get 20 shields before plooution.
If you build collossus, then plan on building the other science wonders in a super science city. If not, then perhaps it is best to not bother with any of them.

[Sten Sture]

Great point George - with the Science wonders, it is AON - all or none.

[War4ever]

i still think colossus is a great wonder ... science city or not. Against the ai.... its usually pretty easy to build whatever you need but against humans you really set your self up to be a target if you try to build everything. Slow like a turtle is much safer than sprinting like a hare only to have everyone want to take you out simultaineously. IMO

colossus: since OCC it has to become the wonder of the year 1999. let´s see what comes next. I agree with W4E in that point: there are so many things you can do with it. Unfortunately I don´t ever seem to get it in MP-games

GL: provides me with only useless stuff. I´ve seen people who went for it first. I just don´t understand why.

Lighthouse: Totally underrated. A very powerful wonder, especially in MP-games.

Mikes: a good wonder, no doubt about it. But it just doesn´t fit into my strategy. The problem is IMO the science path. The one who builds it (or even worse: the one who goes for it and loses) will probably (also) lose the race to SoL and Leonardo.

JSB: How´s the video? Please tell me

INC: A joke; even OCC can be won without it.

...

[jpk]

Smash, If you build Shakespeare's Theatre in a high shield city then your method of supporting an army will work quite well.

Typically I use Shakespeare's Theatre as a science wonder. I build it in the city with the Hanging Gardens and then, after I go to Republic or Democracy I set the luxury rate sufficiently high so that the city grows to the high teens or low twenties in population. Because this is my plan from the beginning, the city is located in a high trade low shield area. The cost associated with this strategy is that I build Women's Sufferage. By that stage of the game money is not a big problem. I deliver caravans for a few turns and then buy the remaining shields.

Another part of this is that I simply like to build Wonders.

[Steve Clark]

Cool! I get back from vacation and there's another opinion list.

As I only have played single, I agree with Smash as amended by finbar.

I think alot of my strategies originated from reading that online strategy guide (by ?) what talks about a Science City and a Production City.

The only comment has to do with Pyramids/HG which I don't build because I favor a slow, steady city growth. However, in my next set of games, I'll try somethings differently: maximize production to increase trades; get away from a militaristic play style and go for AC. In those cases, I'm sure my opinions of the wonders will change.

[BlackJack]

For me, the thing with Darwin isn't so much that I want the advances - it's way to expensive just for that - it's that I don't want the AI to get the advances. I mean, as the game moves into the later stages, my 2-5 lead in advances dwindles to 1-2 in a blink - 5 AIs working together on 2-3 tech paths while you're working one. And life gets kinda miserable when the Mongols are close and they get Mobile Warfare before me. Or when anybody get Rocketry and Fission before I get the Laser.

[War4ever]

jpk..... when you talk about womwns sufferage and such.... are you talking about all the extra troops from your other cities... as you know that shakes eliminates all unhappiness from one city which with high shields makes it easy to field an army.
i suppose Sufferage allows for an even larger army

[Sieve Too]

Great replies all around!

My comments:

I like Shakes but it is a royal pain doing all that homing of units. And on multicontinent worlds - forget it. Worse, sea and air units may take many turns to get to the your city with Shakes - and then many more to get back where you want them. Women's Suffrage allows you more flexibility.

On that same note, JSB is actually a slightly better Wonder than MC if you favor Democracy, especially after Communism. JSB does its work after the effects of miltiary unhappiness, whereas MC works before it. So JSB can eliminate the effects of 1 unit away under Dem, or 2 under Rep or Dem + WS. Note: a size 1 or 2 city under Dem can never go into disorder if you have JSB, regardless of the number of units away.

Darwin: if you're not a warmonger and like to play as a Dem, you can get Darwin for free. How? Wait til after your next discovery, then set science to 0%, taxes to 80%, start building Darwin. After 3 or 4 turns, just buy it. You'll have 2 more advances in no more than 4 turns and be no poorer. That's a pretty good science rate for the mid-game!

Hanging Gardens: For a fairly long stretch early in the game, HG gives you the effect of the Colossus in the city that it's built in, i.e. Rep level trade under Monarchy when city size is 6 or less or 7 with an Elvis. So HG is not only a happiness wonder, it's a science wonder too.

Great Wall: 1) Barbs are wimps. If they take a city, you now have an oppurtunity to bribe cheap NON units. 2) Peace? with the Mongols? When have they EVER kept a peace treaty? 3) City Walls? Why do you need those? If barbs, see #1. If the AI, you need a lesson in real city defense: Picket units plus Diplos and Elephants/Crusaders and road connected cities. Don't let the AI near your cities.

[Flavor Dave]

Amendments:
1. WS--it's nice to have. The value is that if you have it, the AI doesn't which means you won't be running into any aggressive democracies. Aggressive democracies are a bear to fight against, cuz you can't bribe a city to force peace.
2. The Oracle is very good if you want to go early republic. It + HG means it's very easy to get your cities to size 7-8. If I'm in great terrain (almost exclusively hills and grassland, with some rivers), I usually build a small civ, expand it with Republic love, then expand judiciously, and use the mined hills to build tons of caravans, and all the key mid-game wonders. With only 5-8 cities, nobody will mess with you until you've built an unbeatable civ.

Also, the AI doesn't care much for theology, so this one lasts a long time if built early.

3. SETI--the MOST OVERRATED wonder in the game. When you get it, what is left to discover? Often, it's only value to me is getting stealth a couple of turns earlier.

Remember, it only works in cities that have universities. How many universities do you have? If I have a bunch, I build it. If not, I go for the research lab in the science city, and forget about it.

4. KRC is great in the right city (high food and trade, low shields.) Another wonder that you should build right at the beginning of engineering. If you aim for it, and build it early, it's great. I've built it in a city with a bunch of water squares, then turned around and built the Colossus immediately. Then that city sent caravans to overseas foreign cities every 3-4 turns. Cha-ching!! That was one awesome civ.

5. ST--great for two things. A navy, and vet. partisans. A cadre of vet partisans can wreck a perfectionist civ. Pillaging mined hills costs 4 shields at least, usually 8 (factory plus power plant), EVERY TURN. Plus, they cut off reinforcements.

6. Sun Tzu--recently I've considered this to be a near must-have, if my civ has any size at all. If I have plans to hit even 10 cities right after Mike's, then I want it. Bad.

7. If I'm exceptionally shield rich, I'll build Eiffel; it seems to prevent sneak attacks, esp. when combined with the UN. But, I consider this the best wonder to conquer rather than build; if it's out there, I know I can take two reputation hits, and still get to spotless.

Unless you're the kind of player who commits to fundamentalist war at SOL, reputation does matter. If your reputation gets low, the AI will never respect cease fires. You need those from time to time, when you're in danger of overreaching. Even one turn can allow sufficient reinforcments.

8. Cure for Cancer. It's kinda nice to have if you're conquering late. It puts one more citizen at work in a newly conquered, large city. If your reputation is bad, that extra worker may be what you need to get walls built in two turns instead of three. Also, it allows one more tax collector in your supermarket, maxed out (size-wise) cities. If you have 10 cities like this, with stock exchanges, that's, what, ~100 G per turn? Still, at 600 shields, this is a WoW I target for conquest, rather than build.

[jpk]

War4ever, what I meant is that each city can contribute one unit to the war effort in its own name. I understand the process of building a unit in one city moving it to the Shakespeare city and then rehoming the unit. To be honest I rarely do that. I am not interested in big armies. I prefer to use a small army to take the capitol, repeatedly if necessary, and then bribe cities. This is financed by vast numbers of caravan and freight units. (ICS = Infinite Caravan Sleaze?).

If you play on a multicontinent world, I think you will find that the cost in shields of bribing a city with the money generated from caravans is less than the cost in shields of taking a city by force. Diplomats and spies are the most powerful units, but they get much of that power from caravans and freight. The down side is you don't get to here the guy yell, "Fire!"

I made the oracle not be obsolete never to make it compete against other wonders

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Alien Infiltrate

[Sieve Too]

Flavor Dave: I know you can't build Research Labs unless the city has a University first, but I thought they worked in every city.

I've never had much luck with Partisans, vet or overwise. Even a perfectionist civ will have a couple Armor or air units around to blast your Partisans, who are too weak to fight back. Unless you have a continuous stream of Partisans, AI Engineers quickly rebuild and you are out 50 shields. Oftentimes, your other Partisans can't even kill the AI Engineers rebuilding mines. If there are any AI units on the rails, your Partisans won't have enough movement to penetrate to the AI's interrior.

jpk: Consider the shield cost of "vast numbers of caravan and freight units". For a one time cost of around 600 shields, I can build enough Howitzers and Mech Inf to conquer the world. Unlike Caravans and Freight, the units are reusable. Before then, Spies can tear down walls for Cavarly. A couple cities building Spies recovers your losses. Mid to late game size 15+ AI cities are terribly expensive to bribe. If you take the capital, they just move it.

[jpk]

Sieve Too, I play large multicontinent worlds. The strategy I use might not work on small single continent worlds.

Once I get radio I build airports and freight units as fast as possible. In a few turns every one of my cities is connected to an airport by railroad. Most cities will be connected to several airports. I fly freight units to distant cities and deliver them on the next turn. As soon as I can afford to do so, whenever a city starts to build a freight unit I buy enough shields so that the unit is completed on the next turn. If this means buying all 50 shields I do that. After 10 to 15 turns of continual freight building my main money problem is spending the money. If a city costs 5000 coins I bribe it; if there is a unit between my howitzers and the capitol and I don't want to waste a shot on the unit I bribe it; even if it costs 2000 coins.

If you have never played a game where you deliver 10 to 20 freight units per turn, turn after turn, you might want to try it. This is what I meant by Infinite Caravan Sleaze.

A bonus of this strategy is that you can set your taxes to 0%, your luxury rate to 40%, your science rate to 60%, and still get an advance every turn. Becaue the luxury rate is so high the cites are usually celebrating "We Love The President" and growing whenever there is excess food. This increases the value of the freight units. It is a vicious cycle.

[Flavor Dave]

My vet. partisans do alright, cuz they're always on hills. In my experience, it usually takes two armors to knock them out. I lost 50 shields, the AI loses 48 (60% of 80) or 42. Still, it's worth it--I like to take one city that is at 50+ shields, have it build a partisan every turn, and re-home. A half dozen or so are a big help.

Another devilish trick is to have the partisans pillage a mined mountain. Sure, it's only wasting 2 shields per turn, but that partisan will last.

The partisans are more effective, admittedly, when the AI is being attacked on two fronts. Don't know why it is; I'm guessing the AI is reluctant to use an armor outside the city whenever there are units within X tiles of that city.

Remember, that armor that takes out the partisan is an armor that doesn't counterattack your brand new conquest. If your pillaging troops tear down the city walls, that's great.

[War4ever]

jpk..... i understand the whole womens sufferage thing but i don't understand your reasoning for it especially if your usuing a small army. Wouldn't it be easier to just use KRC which costs far less than womens sufferage for your little war machine and prevents unhapiness period as apposed to one unit from each city going to war, which if you are not paying attention can cause unhappiness if you build one too many units from the same city. maybe i am confused here.

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War is the answer when you need to strike first.

War is the answer when you think you should strike first

war is the answer when you think others may strike first.

[Sten Sture]

W4E - I'm sure you mean Shakes, not KRC.

[Sten Sture]

As an addendum: I once insisted to my ally in an MP game that I was almost done building the GL, but I meant the LH and then someone else built the library and I became slightly unpopular...

[War4ever]

oops sorry Sten..... good correction... nice to see people read my posts and that is rather funny what you said )