To all those slamming the ign review

[wheathin]

People reading the review will either know about TBS or they won't. Either way, it makes more sense to write a review of the game that acknowledges that the game is TBS. If readers are familiar with TBS, great: a review that compares ctp2 to others in the genre will be helpful. If they aren't, then a review that identifies the characterisitics of TBS (i.e. it is NOT RTS!) and then compares ctp2 will be helpful as well.

In this case, it seems that the author hates TBS and wants to keep others from playing TBS, instead of thinking that perhaps other gamers out there might enjoy TBS and then evaluating whether this would be a good introduction to it.

In any case, a review which trashes the game for the differences of the genre helps no one.

[LT John]

CTP 2 was made to apppeal to Turn-Based gamers, not a mass market. When we play tested the game with non-TBS gamers, we found that the learning curve was pretty steep for them and that they did not grasp the fundamental TBS concepts (why can't I select all my guys at once like in C&C?). The decision was made to focus the tutorial on explaining concepts to those familiar with TBS games, not to hold the hand of RTS gamers. It seems that the IGN reviewer has a problem with this.

That being said, the size of the TBS market is considerable- over 2 million Civ2 players, over 600K Civ:CTP players, and over 600K SMAC players.

[jkadabomb]

Although personally I did not agree with the review since I have played the series since Civilization and I agree with what most of you have said, I think he was right in writing his ign review. You see his review shows what some1 new to the Civilization series would think. It shows that activision has not done a good job of appealing to those who have never played the series but rather apealed to those who have. This might not necassarily be a good thing either in the long run. Well basically I am saying that the review really probably shows what ppl who have never played TBS games b4 would think. Of course I do think these are narrow minded and stupid ppl, however narrow minded, stupid and ignorant ppl make up the vast majority of the population anyways so we have to get used to them.

[Dark Renown]

yes but most of the people buying ctp2 will already like tbs and will proberly own others, a smaller amount of people will decide they want to try a tbs and should know they will have to get used to a new system.

[WesW]

I think it was the gamespot review, which wasn't much better than the ign one, which listed the difficulty of the game as "easy", and the learning curve as one hour. Does this sound like someone who had any appreciation of the finer points of tbs games in general, and ctp2 in particular? I find it rather insulting, myself.

[Judge]

I agree with some of your comments jkadabomb but I think that in general this is clearly an example of a reviewer who simply doesn't understand the TBS genre. Almost all of his comments would be appropriate from someone who either doesn't like TBS games at all or from someone who simply hasn't given CTP II enough time to learn how to play it, the former being the most likely candidate!

Personally I think this genre is excellent and I am certain that to achieve "mass market" appeal it would have to be changed into something that I and most other TBS fans wouldn't like anymore.

Most turn based games are MUCH slower to play because they give you time to think about your strategy and let you do far more micromanagement than RTS's. In theory at least Turn based games also allow the computer more time for AI calculations.

Its fundamental in any TBS that the front end does not make the job even harder than it should be. The old CTP's front end was poor to say the least but the new one is a great improvement.

CTP2 is not, imo, innovative. CTP2 is really a fix of CTP1 with many improvements. I played Civ 1 and 2 for years, I played CTP 1 for a few days and gave up with it. CTP2, so far, has impressed me. I'm not sure if I like the 12 unit army limit, I can't find any way to apply changes to multiple cities simultaneously, I preferred the CIV2 method of reporting problems better and I liked the old advisors! (sad) but in general I think this is probably the best so far. (9/10)

Anyone reviewing this type of game professionally must have some liking for them or they will be comparing their feelings for it with RTS's and arcade games. An avid fan of TBS who didn't like RTS, when reviewing a good RTS such as AOK, would probably complain that he didn't have enough time to think, that there weren't enough technologies and question how you could get emotionally involved with a game which only lasts around 2 hours to play it through!

[Locutus]

quote: Originally posted by LT John on 11-21-2000 03:05 PM That being said, the size of the TBS market is considerable- over 2 million Civ2 players, over 600K Civ:CTP players, and over 600K SMAC players.

And that's only the people that actually bought those games (warez anyone?)

quote: Originally posted by Judge on 11-22-2000 09:41 AM CTP2 is not, imo, innovative. CTP2 is really a fix of CTP1 with many improvements.

true, except from the new diplomacy system, the reworked combat system with the addition of flanking units and the even-less-micromanagment tile improvement system ctp2 is not innovative. still, there were lots of of innovations from ctp1(stacks, unconvetional warfare, macromanagment, trade system, graphics, goverments with empire size limits, space units, etc etc) that needed "calibration" and thus innovation was not the big demand for ctp2...

quote: I can't find any way to apply changes to multiple cities simultaneously

open the empire manager(f2), select more than one cities, click on the build manager
from there you can make a queue, which you can insert or append to the existing queues or replace the existing queues...

[John-SJ]

MarkG,

"open the empire manager(f2)..."

Shouldn't that be the National Manager?

John-SJ

quote: Originally posted by John-SJ on 11-22-2000 10:49 AM MarkG, "open the empire manager(f2)..." Shouldn't that be the National Manager?

i always confuse the two.... whatever is on F2!

[Sarxis]

Without being too hypercritical of the review, I think they hit the nail right on the head.

Without being too hypercritical of the game, I think it is pretty good.

[Judge]

Ah sarcasm
Innovation in any sequel is dangerous and many developers put innovation in for the sake of it. I would still call the um innovations you describe as improvements but regardless I am still impressed with the "improvements" since they err improve and don't ruin the game.

If that queuing works I will be VERY happy!!!

I really did like the old style message window - your citizens are revolting! type stuff but other posts mention that we can modify some files from beginner mode to get this back in......

So far i've played on medium level with a large map and, I think, about 7 computer players. The game has locked once halfway through a computer turn but a reload of the autosave cured that. I've been playing over a couple of nights for a total of about 8 hours and I'm at 1956 AD. The computer has offered about as much resistance as I would expect on hard level - i.e. some but not exactly fierce. I've had appropriate responses (in the main) from the diplomacy AI which is a refreshing change from CTP and in particular I've had accepted requests for the removal of troops and the common trade route sabotage problems. I must agree with others that a reason for a rejection would be nice even though their general attitude is given.

Anyway sofar as I said before I'm impressed!!

[ghen]

I get the IGN newsletter and read the review, I simply turned to my favorite TBS website to find out whether the review was good or not. If anyone has ever played a TBS game in the past, and if they had been waiting for CTP2 then they wouldn't like the ign review just because it was a negative one. Only after a second opinion by THE LEADER in TBS entertainment (yes, apolyton ) would one such as myself decide upon purchasing the game.


Call to Power was a lovely game, its the only TBS I've played and I liked it. CTP2 would never be released without being better than CTP because the repurcussions from the civilization fanbase would put Activision out of business. This is the view I had before the game came out, and still is my view until Apolyton changes it..

I love you guys, don't expect me back soon though because I have other commitments now including school, and well.. school .

Ghen
I love you, you love me..

[Dark Renown]

how can they say ctp2 has a steep learning curve? Surely its no harder than ctp1? ctp was the first tbs i played and i didnt even have the mannel(friends copy) and i figuered it out in a day or so.

[EdCase]

Maybe your just more patient than the average "twitch" gamer Dark Hence the learning curve of a day is reasonable.Most twitchers need near instant gratification in my experience

[ghen]

I like to read manuals, as it is I usually get games at night, then read the manual in bed before sleep. The next day I play