issues with diplomacy

The diplomat · December 20, 2000, 10:06

I have been trying different proposals to study the AI's response in diplomacy, so as to learn more about how diplomavy works in ctp2. Unfortunately, I have to admit that I am less and less impressed. I don't necessarily complain about the use of "proposals" instead of a "dialogue". That was a decision by the people who made the game. And, although I prefer the "dialogue system in some ways, I don't think that the "proposal" system is necessarily bad.
However, it seems to me that the the factors that determine when the AI will accept your proposal, are extremelly basic. If your regard is good then it will accept, otherwise, odds are that the AI will turn you down. Shouldn't the AI accept a peace treaty sometimes just because yo are much more powerful eventhough it doesn't like you. I have often offered peace treaty with large sums of gold to a vastly inferior civ, and it still refused after I threatened. Did I use the wrong tone (I used "kind" when I first made the offer)
Could someone enlighten me? Experimenting a little, I purposely offered proposals that were overly generous to see what would happen. To a friendly civ, I offered a peace treaty with 5000 gold, the AI refuses!? I asked for a friendly AI to give the tech "democracy" in exchange I would surrender a city size 10 to him, the AI refuses !? How come the AI refuses such generous offers?

Also the AI never really initiates diplomacy. The only proposals that I have gotten from the AI have been asking for an exchange of maps (boy, have I gotten that one a lot) and asking for a cease-fire. The AI never initiates diplomacy to ask for other stuff. Have others encountered the AI using the other proposals? I haven't!

In summary my 2 observations are:
1) the AI does not respond in a realistic way to my proposals
2) the AI rarely initiates diplomacy and when it does, it does not use any of the choices.

Spiker22 · December 20, 2000, 10:52

The same for me. I have played the game for quit some time, but not even once have I ever seen any other proposals made by the AI other than the cease-fire and exchange map ones. Moreover, the AI always just simply reject my proposals without leaving me any clue as to what actually makes it reject them. It would be much nicer if there's some kind of feed back from the AI, giving me at least the reason behind the refusal. Alpha Centauri had done a much better job in that aspect.

Savant · December 20, 2000, 14:38

The AI is really quite stiff and clueless. It doesn't initiate much of anything and when it does, it's the same old thing.. map requests.

I have played around a lot with offers as well, going back to the saved game and changing the offer systematically and I found little in the way of an intelligent AI response. I too offered cities of size 10 to a civ for a peace treaty and got nothing. In fact, the AI doesn't care for giving anything at all. I offered a city size 10 for it's map and it said "no". I have never been able to exchange advances successfully. I can give them away, but can't seem to get anything for them but somewhat better "regard".

Sometimes I am encouraged like when I see a civ send an army of 4 or 5 out into the territory of an enemy AI and start to plunder and seige a city. Most of the time however, the AI figures that being "at war" means keeping to one's self and just saying "no" to proposals. It is an extraordinarilly "shy" AI.

I am beginning to wonder whether any progress in AI has been made at all since 1996 - Civ 2. The AI then was cheesey, but at least it had the animations to keep you interested.. like eye candy.

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'Blood will run'

Spiker22 · December 20, 2000, 23:29

I was able to achieve Peace Pacts and even alliance with AI players by threatening to declare war on them.

colorme · December 21, 2000, 01:07

quote:

Originally posted by Spiker22 on 12-20-2000 10:29 PM
I was able to achieve Peace Pacts and even alliance with AI players by threatening to declare war on them.

Hee hee. Talk about a stupid strategy (sorry, stupid AI programming, I mean). "Be my best friend, else you're dead meat!". Sounds like the mob to me ...

The diplomacy is another aspect of CTP2 that has the potential of being exciting, but it's obvious that the activision dudes didn't have time to finish it. Clearly, that's the job of the captive community of apolytoners (or whatever).

Hey, I love this business model ... sort of like the (silly?) 'we-provide-the-veggies-you-cook-it-yourself restaurants' in California.

Any business-types know whether this model is taught in any business-school courses?

December 21, 2000, 02:16

quote:

Originally posted by colorme on 12-21-2000 12:07 AM
Hee hee. Talk about a stupid strategy (sorry, stupid AI programming, I mean). "Be my best friend, else you're dead meat!". Sounds like the mob to me ...

in smac when someone surrendered, you had two options: ignore his surrender and eliminate him or demand that he becomes your ally. how is that different??

ElitePersian · December 21, 2000, 08:56

In the first i game played on medium, i cant recall even one time where the AI asked me for exchange maps.
After the nuclear fallout where all the tiles got blackened...the AI asked me to reduce pollution, and after i built infectors, the AI kept asking me reduce biochemical weapons. There was nothing else that was too interesting about the AI's diplomacy. It was too hyped up.

Triumphus Romanus · December 21, 2000, 09:48

Well, ive had the AI ask for my map and offer his/hers in return. Also, ive had them ask for peace and even a couple times offer gold, but thats about it.

Captain_Dave · December 21, 2000, 11:16

Yeah, I'm playing a game where I'm behind in tech, and tried getting the AI to trade some to me. If I offer gold in exchange, they always counter asking for more gold than I have. I tried trading off a small border city that I captured, they countered for huge gold ransom instead. Then I tried offering a map in exchange, and he accepted! Two turns later, same player, offered map again for another tech, and he accepted again! This won't work with his BEST techs, just some of the lower ones (he had like 8 techs that I didn't). Well, now I know how to manipulate him!

Martock · December 21, 2000, 16:11

i've been playing on the impossible levels for some time now. only finished the game once though as i've restarted to see any what happened when i went mucking about in the files. the AI does ask for maps ALL the time, which i don't mind doing as i get theirs in return. i've seen the AI ask for a reduction in my nukes, bio's, and pollution. i've had them as for peace treaties, cease fires, research treaties (twice i think) and once i had one ask for a trade treaty!

as far as tech is concerned, i've both asked and been asked for tech. normally i don't bother asking for techs if the computer is equal or greater than my strength (duh) but then again, i'm normally in a research treaty with most and that usually means they love me and trust me completely...so at that point, i can ask for the tech to duplicate the key to their daughters chastity belts and they'd give it without question. most of the times i can ask for tech and they won't even ask for anything in return. so i do think that all lot of this has to do with how the AI feels about you.

anyway, that's my 2 cents...now off to create barbarian infectors, nukers, and the like...heh heh heh.

red_jon · December 21, 2000, 16:37

quote:

Originally posted by colorme on 12-21-2000 12:07 AM
Hee hee. Talk about a stupid strategy (sorry, stupid AI programming, I mean). "Be my best friend, else you're dead meat!". Sounds like the mob to me ...

Sounds more like the US

(j/k)

rwz · December 22, 2000, 01:03

"in smac when someone surrendered, you had two options: ignore his surrender and eliminate him or demand that he becomes your ally. how is that different??"

Yea this bothered me too, except that from then on he did give you all his research and you could demand bases from him from time to time. In SMAC occasionally a surrendered pac brother would sometimes revolt and go their own way, (the Gaia's did this to me once and attacked), after that I never accepted surrenders. I haven't tried for the diplomatic victory yet in CTP2 so I don't know how the other Civs respond once they become your ally. Do they reneg on the deal?

Dyzee400 · December 22, 2000, 01:47

To get techs from the AI, I just park two stacks of about 10 or 12 units next to one of his cities and demand the tech, and I actually throw in a little gold to be nice. They ALWAYS reject but when they do I just threaten to declare war. Then they often accept but if they don't I keep my threat and declare. I wait a turn, take their city, get a cease-fire, and an embassy. I do it over again until I have all the techs I want. I'm playing on hard, if anyone was wondering.

jlb · December 27, 2000, 15:53

I'm new to CTP and I'm a little confused by the behaviour of one of the AI units. It's prancing about on horseback around my Capital City and every so often keeps "blowing a couple of trumpets" at least that's what it looks like! Is he trying to tell me something? I can't find any evidence of diplomatic messages from this particular civ!

Michiel B de Boer · December 27, 2000, 16:09

Is it perhaps pillaging your land ?

Dale · December 27, 2000, 17:19

Woohoo! My first post.

I've never really had a problem with the AI not doing diplomacy. When I first started playing CTP2 I did but then I decided to imitate the US way of diplomacy (no insult intended here BTW). I just stuck my nose into everything and used the arrogant tone. I even stuck my nose into other nations wars. To start with the other nations ignored me or got annoyed, but after I had muskets/tanks/ships-of-line before any of them they started listening and agreeing. Then pretty soon they were all initiating diplomacy with me (and from what I could tell each other). Pretty much I acted like the US as world mediator, bullying everyone to my way and before you know it I had diplomatic victory before aircraft.

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Rommell to a sub-commander outside Tobruk: "Those Australians are in there somewhere. But where? Let's advance and wait till they shoot, then shoot back."

Matte979 · December 28, 2000, 01:43

Martock.

What changes did you do?. I would also like the AI to make cease fires and peace with other AI.

I think this is possible with slic. We need to create a database with new functions that do useful stuff for diplomacy. There is great potential to do small functions that do diverse things like diplomacy.

"If you want something done as you want it to be done you have to do it yourself"

/Mathias