*WONDER* why this is.

red_jon · December 18, 2000, 14:28

Oh dear. Looking at CTP" it seems they did about 5 minutes of historical research

Here are the number of wonders each civ has (not counting futurisitc wonders)

British/English= 3
Italian/Roman = 2
Greek = 1
Aztec = 1
Chinese = 2
German/Prussian= 1
Turkish = 1
Egyptian = 1
and
American = 8

CAN ANYONE SEE ANYTHING WRONG HERE?
These are all great and historic nations, BUT LOOK AT HOW MANY THE US HAS. Don't get me wrong- the US has contibuted loads to the modern era, but this is ridiculous!

Plus, the fact that half the wonders are the same as CTP1 but with the end lopped off is a joke, the London Exchange wonders music cut off, mid tune!

With the Egalitarian act, it says in the great library that the EU built it, but in the video it has the US flag!

PLUS, no-where in the manual or in the GL foes it tell you how to finih the game via the science victory!

Dyzee400 · December 18, 2000, 14:30

quote:

Originally posted by red_jon on 12-18-2000 01:28 PM

PLUS, no-where in the manual or in the GL foes it tell you how to finih the game via the science victory!

This was corrected in the patch since it was not included in the manual.

red_jon · December 18, 2000, 14:37

That won't help those who don't have the internet!

This game is a travesty, I actually think CTP1 is better (when it has the Med mod of course)!

Activision have fooled me again. I won't be buying CTP3 thats for sure!

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"We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills, we shall never surrender!" -Winston Churchill

"Gotta love me"- Baby, Dinosaurs

Slax · December 18, 2000, 15:03

quote:

Originally posted by red_jon on 12-18-2000 01:28 PM
Plus, the fact that half the wonders are the same as CTP1 but with the end lopped off is a joke, the London Exchange wonders music cut off, mid tune!

I assume you mean you don't like the movies to be repeated, and not the choice of wonders themselves.

red_jon · December 18, 2000, 15:16

I dislike both. The choice of wonders is laughable- the Empire State building wasn't THAT much taller than the Chrysler building! And a BILL as a wonder?

I've mentioned before why the Emancipation Act and The Agency are not legitimate wonders (they are both things achieved by Britian first).

------------------
"We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills, we shall never surrender!" -Winston Churchill

"Gotta love me"- Baby, Dinosaurs

Jen Dragon · December 18, 2000, 15:50

I agree 100%, they tried to much to stay away from civ 1 and 2's wonders, thay obviously didn't take suggestions very well, like you said remade ctp1's wonders for expense reasons, deffinatly not because people requested their return in ctp2, If I remember correctly they got a little flack over the wonders in ctp1, and still didn't change much.

P.S. if they wait 5 years and there hasen't been a civ game in the last 3 or 4 years you will buy ctpIII.

wheathin · December 18, 2000, 17:21

Of *course* they couldn't use the Civ2 Wonders. They are trying hard enough as it is to avoid trademark-copyright issues with Civ2 as it is. They left out the Chariot, for that very reason - the *Chariot*, for Gods sake! - even though the Chariot is one of the most universal units of the ancient period, one used in EVERY ancient era game.

The Civ2 Wonders don't even correspond to the Seven Ancient Wonders very well, so Activision can't use that as an excuse either. No Mausoleum, for example. And, even if they could use the Civ2 Wonders, they couldn't use similar effects...

mosquitodriver · December 18, 2000, 18:27

all i have to say to you redjon is until the europeans become the leaders of the free world dont complain about america being represented so much in the game. america made the modern world what it is today with some help from the others but shouldnt the leader get due credit like it did in the game. after all it is an american game, heck i think all the civ games are american, why dont the europeans try making one aye?

December 18, 2000, 18:39

quote:

Originally posted by red_jon on 12-18-2000 01:28 PM
Turkish = 1

if you mean Hagia Sophia, it's Byzantine....

The Kaiser · December 18, 2000, 18:47

Wheathin

Is that true about the Chariot Unit?

I know some of the names have been changed like Musketeer's into Infantrymen, but to leave out a unit seems a bit extreme.

Atahualpa · December 18, 2000, 19:44

Stupid Copyright Issues.

How can they put a copyright on some wonders???? They have no rigth to copyright anything. Especially not the chariot! (as if they invented them)
I will make a game where solely a chariot exists and then sell it and see if they will try to sue me. HAHAHAHAHA **** MICROPROSE.

ATa

Dyzee400 · December 18, 2000, 20:47

How the heck can you copyright a chariot?

Celestial_Dawn · December 18, 2000, 22:24

quote:

Originally posted by Dyzee400 on 12-18-2000 07:47 PM
How the heck can you copyright a chariot?

Check with the Assyrian patent office.

red_jon · December 19, 2000, 05:38

quote:

Originally posted by mosquitodriver on 12-18-2000 05:27 PM
all i have to say to you redjon is until the europeans become the leaders of the free world dont complain about america being represented so much in the game. america made the modern world what it is today with some help from the others but shouldnt the leader get due credit like it did in the game. after all it is an american game, heck i think all the civ games are american, why dont the europeans try making one aye?

Bearing in mind it is supposed to be a historically accurate game

So you honestly don't think the US is over-represented? 8 WONDERS? You actually think a BILL should be a wonder? This is a CIVILIZATION game not- CALL TO AMERICA

Americas contribution to the world has been about half a century. The Romans and Egyptions were in power way longer and they only get one each? Something very wrong.

And regarding the CIV2 wonders thing- the game has the Pyramids, so why can't it have the rest? Couldn't it have called the chariot by a different name (like its latin name)

The Viceroy · December 19, 2000, 08:54

I completely agree with Red_Jon on this ... Personally, I think America is a continent, not a civilization .. United States maybe .. but not America.

I always found it a little funny that I have the North Americans and Americans in the same game.

As for it being an American game ... Well, .. how arragant can you get .. the modern world was not build by the US, you have contributed since WW2, and little before this time.

Im reminded of my recent trip to Paris, where I heard an American tourist say "GEEE They really built this thing 100 years ago ??" regards to the Eiffel tower .. It may be a suprise to some of you Americans, but we (Europeans) were building empires while you were eating baked beans and firing guns at each other ... nothing much has changed since.

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"Wherever wood floats, you will find the British" . Napoleon

wheathin · December 19, 2000, 10:35

Obviously you can't copyright a chariot. But the combination of all the elements could lead to a copyright problem. Chariots and Elephants and Dragoons and Barracks and Granaries and Libraries and all the Civ2 Wonders might be too much. Especially if you add the similar game mechanics, TBS design, large overlap in technologies, governments. The game designers (and their legal department) decided that some things would just have to be left out, and so they left out the Chariot.

You can't copyright the color red, or the color white, or a long wavy line. But if you combine them all, the Coca Cola company will start to get mighty nervous, and might sue you on general principles.

As to the US bit: 50 years? gimme a break. The US won WW1 for you - without fresh meat for the grinder, France would have fallen, and Britain would have sued for peace. Of course, it would mean no Hitler...

Dauphin · December 19, 2000, 10:53

quote:

Im reminded of my recent trip to Paris, where I heard an American tourist say "GEEE They really built this thing 100 years ago ??" regards to the Eiffel tower .

I've heard a similar story. An American women at Windsor castle sees a plane flying overhead. She says "I can't believe they built a castle in the middle of a flight path"!

Enough with Yank Bashing.

With regards the wonders: I can understand the bias but I don't think the wonder movies can be excused. Americas declaration of emancipation was not the first.

Dauphin · December 19, 2000, 10:55

quote:

The US won WW1 for you - without fresh meat for the grinder, France would have fallen, and Britain would have sued for peace.

Straw that broke the camel's back.

Paulypav · December 19, 2000, 11:06

Is the U.S. overrepresented. Yes. Is it a crime. No. It is a game made in the United States, by Americans. Frankly, this diatribe has gotten pretty old by this point in time. You have ranted and raved about this time and again with little effect. To be perfectly honest, the United States has dominated the modern era whereas other eras have been represented by a number of strong civilizations. I would like to see more ancient wonders from greece and rome but they are all in Civ II.
I seem to recall one thread asking for alternate modern era wonders and there were very few options that weren't American or already in Civ II. Since Activision is trying to avoid making the game too much like Civ II some things have been cut. They can get away with a few wonders and some units and advances, but if they go too far it could get ugly.
Should the Empire State Building be a wonder, probably not although there have been some decent arguments supporting it in other threads. Is it unfair to give Americans the credit for The Agency when the British equivalent (M6 right?) is older, no, but then again British Intelligence doesn't have the reputation (Infamous) that the CIA has. British Intelligence is the 2nd or 3rd best in the world (definitely behind the Mossad of Israel and probably even with or ahead of the CIA).
The Emancipation Act itself is American, but the freedom from slavery is hardly American, but is it really British either. I would imagine that slavery was ended by many civilizations early on, perhaps even before the British Empire came around. However, has any other civilization created a document or had a significant event that resulted in the freedom of Slaves. I'm sure there is, but I am unaware of any having been taught in American schools. Personally, I think it should become the Spartacus wonder.
That still leaves the U.S. with 5. Oh well, I guess that says something.

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“The American people have now spoken, but it’s going to take a little while to determine exactly what
they said.” — President Clinton

Paulypav · December 19, 2000, 11:08

quote:

Originally posted by Big Crunch on 12-19-2000 09:55 AM
Straw that broke the camel's back.

And all that military support (food, guns, planes, ships, etc.) didn't do much for the war effort either

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“The American people have now spoken, but it’s going to take a little while to determine exactly what
they said.” — President Clinton
[This message has been edited by Paulypav (edited December 19, 2000).]

Alpha Wolf · December 19, 2000, 12:51

There are so many bogus wonders in this game, that I cant believe you are all arguing over which country they come from. Wonders are supposed to be unique, so how could the WIA, penicillin, or globesat be wonders if more than one country has them? I wish they'd replace Wonders with national improvements that could be bought by any civ. That would also end the arguement on whether Wonders have too much of an unbalancing effect.

What about the Magna Carta, Code of Hammarabi, the TVA, I'd even say the roman road system. These are more worthy of Wonder status.

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History is written by the victor.

blinder2451 · December 19, 2000, 14:16

The wonders are definitely ridiculous, but even more ridiculous, is that Firaxis and Micropose aren't collaborating on Civilization.

Until they do, it reminds me of the Civil War. Mark my words, 'Civ3' and 'CTP3' and all the rest will never be as fun as Civ2 and the ones that come before it.

I enjoyed the graphics of Civ2 and Civ1, and they tied into the gameplay. Now it's like I'm playing STARS! in the Civ world, and that's not why I enjoy Civilization.

Those who enjoyed STARS! will enjoy CTP2, but the rest of us will just have to bear with these HALF-civs that come out of half companies.

Carrion · December 19, 2000, 14:29

quote:

Originally posted by red_jon on 12-18-2000 01:28 PM
CAN ANYONE SEE ANYTHING WRONG HERE?
These are all great and historic nations, BUT LOOK AT HOW MANY THE US HAS. Don't get me wrong- the US has contibuted loads to the modern era, but this is ridiculous!

What do you expect from an American company? Especially with a company that has most of its market based in America. If I bought a game developed in England for an English Market I'd simply love to see all the English symbols and patriotism or what ever you call it.

I don't see why people can't stand to see American symbols in video games just because they aren't American themselves.

Could somebody enlighten me on this subject?

red_jon · December 19, 2000, 14:40

Its not because they are American

If it were the French or Romans with that amount of wonders I'd still be complaining as it is unrealistic.

I'm sure the American people who buy this game would, on the whole, prefer it to be historically accurate.

------------------
"We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills, we shall never surrender!" -Winston Churchill

"Gotta love me"- Baby, Dinosaurs

Atahualpa · December 19, 2000, 15:03

Oh man these kind of discussion lead to nothing.

does it really matter where all the wonders come from?
In the game play the british and build the empire state building. Now its yours (british) for the sake of it! This game is there to REWRITE history (the slogan says that)! Do that and enjoy!

aTa

red_jon · December 19, 2000, 15:10

Can you honestly say you think the Zero Crime bill and Empire State Building are wonders of the world?

Even if we forget where they came from it is still STUPID.

------------------
"We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills, we shall never surrender!" -Winston Churchill

"Gotta love me"- Baby, Dinosaurs

skorpion59 · December 19, 2000, 17:57

Got to agree with ATA 100%.

It is a game folks. They are not writing a history book. They are adding some functionality to make the game better.

red_jon · December 20, 2000, 18:22

But if you've just spent ages building a wonder, you want it to be something grand or satisfying.

Spending 50 turns to get a 'wonder' that just makes drug abuse and peadaphillia legal seems idiotic.

Especially when so many good suggestions have been made in these forums.

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"We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills, we shall never surrender!" -Winston Churchill

"Gotta love me"- Baby, Dinosaurs

Big Dave · December 20, 2000, 20:22

quote:

Originally posted by Celestial_Dawn on 12-18-2000 09:24 PM
Check with the Assyrian patent office.

Sorry CD, it was the Hittites.

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Big Dave

Do the Vatican police speak Pig Latin?

Pangaea · December 20, 2000, 21:22

Wern't the Hittites counquered by the Assyrians?

several times?

heh