*WONDER* why this is.

[Jerk]

Petty petty petty. Yes the Wonders are named stupidly in some cases but I don't think the name of the Wonders alters gameplay greatly. Let's start arguing about the effects the wonders have. That DOES effect gameplay and balance.

As for particular wonders that arent really wonders, I'll see what I do to alter the game and make them 'accomplishments' instead of Wonders. That way things like the Zero Crime Bill won't deeply offend some people.

Keep in mind that wonders are highly changable with a bit of editing. Anyone can go in and rename them as they wish. If the movies offend that much, turn them off. I always turn them off after finishing off my first game anyways.

I never kept count of which wonders were built by what nation. My concern was what good they would do for me if I built them.


- Jerk -

Who is now modifying civilisation.txt and changing all the civs to US state names. Whine on!
[This message has been edited by Jerk (edited December 21, 2000).]

[Alpha Wolf]

quote: Originally posted by Jerk on 12-21-2000 12:53 AM Who is now modifying civilisation.txt and changing all the civs to US state names. Whine on! [This message has been edited by Jerk (edited December 21, 2000).]

You should name the civs to their nicknames: like cheeseheads, FIBs, Hoosiers, old folks who cant punch a ballot, and such.

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History is written by the victor.

[Jerk]

Speaking of cheeseheads perhaps I'll make the civs based on NFL teams. Thanks for the idea

Seriously though, I'd like to see some suggestions on improving what the wonders do. You can read my gripe about the global satellite at http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum26/HTML/000107.html

For the "old folks who cant punch a ballot" maybe we can make a new wonder called "The Universal Ballot" buildable by Republics or Democracy governments that gives happiness since all votes are counted on a universal ballot and counted equally. The canadians made us look bad by settling their election before the United States even though they voted for President after we did. I vote they get it

[This message has been edited by Jerk (edited December 21, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Jerk (edited December 21, 2000).]

[Alpha Wolf]

In general I dont like Wonders at all. I'd prefer to a national benefit and a feat of wonder to the first to build it. In reality, if one civ built globesat you can bet most of the rest will follow behind. So for this example, the first to build globesat would get an additional 2 hit points per unit for 10 turns since they could see the enemy coming and be prepared or to plan some ambushes. Or even have the benefit last until the other civ builds globesat.

[Alpha Wolf]

quote: Originally posted by Jerk on 12-21-2000 05:42 AM Speaking of cheeseheads perhaps I'll make the civs based on NFL teams. Thanks for the idea

You could have one civ be football, another baseball, another basketbal.....LOL

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History is written by the victor.

[mosquitodriver]

thats a great idea, the cheeseheads and the green bay packers will rule the world and all the wonders will be from wisconsin, im going to rewrite history and force the british and french to eat cheese to stop their whining.

eat that!

[Alpha Wolf]

likethe brits and frenchies would EVER stop whining.

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History is written by the victor.

[Mike the Nuke]

quote: Originally posted by Alpha Wolf on 12-19-2000 11:51 AM There are so many bogus wonders in this game, that I cant believe you are all arguing over which country they come from. Wonders are supposed to be unique, so how could the WIA, penicillin, or globesat be wonders if more than one country has them? I wish they'd replace Wonders with national improvements that could be bought by any civ. That would also end the arguement on whether Wonders have too much of an unbalancing effect. What about the Magna Carta, Code of Hammarabi, the TVA, I'd even say the roman road system. These are more worthy of Wonder status.

I agree 100 (no make that 1000)% I remember in CTP-1 seeing Contraception as a Wonder. Wow! What brands (Trojans, etc). Geez, if one civilization can invent the "pill" or "rubber", whay can't others. Even 3rd world countries now have devices of contraception available. I think the Wonders should only improve happiness through pride of that civilization in it's Wonder(s) it has built. Globesat was always stupid. Only one civilization/country can develop satelites to expose the planet? Gee, I guess the Russians (in the old USSR) had no satelite data of the U.S. Then, of course, 'Cloaking' came along and all civilizations/countries were "cloaked" from that civilization/country that had 'Globesat', even if they didn't research 'cloaking'. TRASH the Wonders for all purposes other than happiness (through national pride). All other benefits (food, military strength, defense, etc) should be researched and be able to be researched by all. And, yes, for all those just dying to tell me that Cloaking (and possibly Globesat) are not part of CTP-2, but part of CTP-1, I say, "no S___!" I was just using them as an example. I do not yet own CTP-2 (it does not have Hot Seat yet), but it still uses Wonders for things other than 'happiness' through pride of achievement. Hoover Damn, I believe, is a Wonder. Look at all the special things the U.S has that no other civilization/country has. just because of Hoover Damn. Same applies for the Empire State Building, Eifel Tower, Leaning Tower of Pisa (spelling?), pyramids, stonehenge (scientists today still aren't sure of it's purpose).

And after reading all the stuff on this site....I'm glad I haven't bought CTP-2. Same old stuff (with a couple of 'twists'), different cover. Seems to need patches to fix the patches. The Jury, except for those given copies from the manufactureer, should still be (way) out on this game.

I personally bought CTP-1 (after having played Civ1 & Civ2) because it offered sea colonies and space (unfortunately neither was done exceptionally well and space turned out to be nothing more than space stations and has been (rightfully so) left out of CTP2. I was hoping to colonize other planets (aka Alpha Centuri, Civ2-TOT). CTP-1 also seemed to offer a few new (or maybe improved) units and better graphics. It turns out that the Sid Meir group did a much better job (heads and shoulders) above the Activision folks at rating non-imaginary (real life units) such as Battleships, Aircraft Carriers (and having a supply of aircraft for this ship), etc. Both games had flaws with "bow and Arrow guys" shooting down jet aircraft and taking out tanks, etc. CTP-1 seemed to have a better trade method (in my opinion) than the Civ2 game, though the latter was more realistic in making sure that you got the trading vehicle (camel or truck) to the location to be traded with.

CTP-2 (by reading what I've read all over this site) seems to be CTP-1 with more diplomacy with my computer (excuse me....computer AI) and more 'bugs'.

Hey, if they start working on CTP3, they might have it out in time for next Christmas (a little sarcasm) and CTP4 could be out before Christmas 2002 (a little added sarcasm).

"Of course, it's just a game, only a game. Any similarity between this game and anything in 'real life' is purely coincidental."

and....

"Ho, ho, ho ....Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night"

[Grumbold]

They had to pick some cheesy wonders to avoid massice conflict with the original Civ licencee. Every time someone starts a Wonders list theyre is a huge fight over how many are genuine, anyway. I think CtP2 managed rather neutral names for some of the wonders. "The Agency" could be anything. Their reuse of chopped up shorter clips from CtP1 wonders was disappointing.

Like others, I don't believe a "Wonder" should be anything that gets duplicated. People should build and launch satellites until they have 100% coverage. Equally every nation should build the Internet to plug themselves in and gain the benefits.

[red_jon]

If Activision COULDN'T use wonders from Civ2, why do they have the pyrmaids? (Which, ultimate skank, used clips from the INTRO movie).

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"We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills, we shall never surrender!" -Winston Churchill

"Gotta love me"- Baby, Dinosaurs

[MrFun]

The reason I have not posted any concerns regarding this petty subject is because I usually do not cry over spilled milk.

[The Kaiser]

Yes, I think I'll join the "post about not posting" club!

[Paulypav]

Actually, it has been stated by Activision employees in earlier posts that they wanted to avoid potential lawsuits by avoiding similarities where possible. One area in which this has been done is wonders. If one or two wonders are the same, no big deal. If they were all the same there would be some legal questions. I believe that in CTP I, they had some legal right to the Civilization name, but no longer, thus it is Call to Power II, not Civilization Call to Power II. As far as I know, there are no active legal actions, but it always makes sense to prevent them from happening if possible.

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“The American people have now spoken, but it’s going to take a little while to determine exactly what
they said.” — President Clinton

[Imran Siddiqui]

quote: but even more ridiculous, is that Firaxis and Micropose aren't collaborating on Civilization.

Uh... but they are... Firaxis is working on Civ3 with Hasbro, which owns Microprose.

And there is NO legal action over Wonders. CtP2 wanted to be 'different' from Civ, and it suceeded in that, perhaps too well.

[skorpion59]

I (as well as Harlan) spoke extensively with Activision about all this during the discussions concerning what is and isn't allowed in the Shipping Scenarios. It was made quite clear that Activision no longer has a license (thus the rights) to the Civilization name or any similarities thereof. They are on very sticky legal grounds and have done the best they can with what they can.

Having said that, if you simply have to have the Civ2 wonders, movies, units, etc, then go play Civ2. Or better yet, make your own since it isn't to likely they will sue an individual.

This is CtP2 which is an ENTIRELY different game and one, which I might add, that stands on its own.

On to more productive things....

[The Kaiser]

The original deal was for 1 game and 1 expansion disc.

Some say including myself, that CTP2 is little more than a expansion disc. So if Activision had admitted this and released it as an add-on disc, it would have saved them a lot of these copyright issues.

I guess by doing it the way they have, it let's them charge more money and keep more of it for themselves!

[Dominous Nemo]

quote: Originally posted by The Viceroy on 12-19-2000 07:54 AM I completely agree with Red_Jon on this ... Personally, I think America is a continent, not a civilization .. United States maybe .. but not America. I always found it a little funny that I have the North Americans and Americans in the same game. As for it being an American game ... Well, .. how arragant can you get .. the modern world was not build by the US, you have contributed since WW2, and little before this time. Im reminded of my recent trip to Paris, where I heard an American tourist say "GEEE They really built this thing 100 years ago ??" regards to the Eiffel tower .. It may be a suprise to some of you Americans, but we (Europeans) were building empires while you were eating baked beans and firing guns at each other ... nothing much has changed since.

If it wasn't for us baked bean gun toating silly Americans you would be soluting hitler right now. And who cares about the Eiffel tower? It just proves you ppl didn't know how to build things back then either. I am next to a church right now that was bult in 1789 in Buffalo,NY I don't see that in the game and I wouldn't expect to. Plus the building isn't leaning though it is starting to fall apart ;-)

As for the game being to American I agree. I think they should make the wonders more general (i.e. Galilao's telescope eq Telescope and etc...)


PS: Sorry for the flame but I think ppl UK have a chip on their shoulder. If it was up to me when we were done with the germans and the japanese we should of took out the brits ;-)

[Alpha Wolf]

Out of curiosity, if some of the helpful Activision emloyees help the mod makers and the mods look to close to civ2, would that still get them in trouble?

I thought the original licence was for CtP1 and a single followup title.

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History is written by the victor.

[red_jon]

OMG!

You really are the most ignorant person I have ever had the misfortune to meet.

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"We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills, we shall never surrender!" -Winston Churchill

"Gotta love me"- Baby, Dinosaurs

[marcuspeddle]

quote: The canadians made us look bad by settling their election before the United States even though they voted for President after we did. I vote they get it

Canada is a constitutional monarchy which means that we have no president. Queen Elizabeth II is the monarch and so we have a prime minister.

Wonders of the world. Some people are complaining about the Empire State Building being a wonder of the world. No one complains about the Pyramids being a wonder of the world when, in fact, they were built to satisfy the vanity of pharoahs. I have just recently read that the pyramids are no great feat of architecture; it's the logistics of building such a thing that's the wonder. Instead of the Empire State Building being a wonder of the world maybe the Statue of Liberty should be a wonder since it came to be known by the whole world as the representation of democracy and freedom. I don't remember - was the Statue of Liberty a wonder in Civ2?

You know, I have an odd co-worker who might be included as a wonder of the world. There are people from various countries working at my university and we're always wondering what's going on inside his head.

[marcuspeddle]

Sorry, posted the same message twice by mistake.
[This message has been edited by Anatolia (edited December 26, 2000).]

[Changmai Beagle]

Re: WWI & WW2. As a Canuck I believe we provided some assistance, along with the Yanks (just earlier). However, I think the main effort and sacrifice was made by the Russian people.

I do think Bills, like the Bill of Rights (and even court decisions like Mansfield) could be wonders if they resulted in a change in the world - and in this case a change in gameplay.

[Depp]

The pyramids are still unique, nothing else like it in the world, and it was an engineering feat that is unsurpassed. The Empire State Building is just another building, there are bigger and better ones already, and it didn´t last long compared to the pyramids... Hence it not wonder while the pyramids are.
Eiffel Tower isn´t a wonder either to me.

America is a european colony, didn´t you know ?

[Keygen]

The Piramids exist for more than 3000-4000 years.
The time they where built they were surely a wonder of the world. People still go there from all over the world to admire them!

Well, 5 of the 7 Ancient Wonders of the world were Greek but they only Greek wonder is the Labyrinth which is accually not one of the 7 ancient ones. Labyrinth was a mythological place where the Minoans where droping young people as sacrifice to the Minotaur (which in Greek means Minoan's bull by the way ) and can't think how this could be related with free caravans, maybe I am missing something .

As for the Empire Building I thing it was a great achivement the time was builded. Maybe not a wonder or maybe a wonder, why not.

Regarding the American-Europian war that had started on this topic I think both have some share on what is fair. It is true that the Americans gave a great help to the Europians to the two world wars. Perhaps it is true that the Europians might have been enslaved to the Germans (which are Europians too ) if the Americans wouldn't help but if they hadn't, and the Germans had taken the entire Europe then the American would share the world with them and not with themselves right now . And do not forget what the Russians had contribute to the WWII. They beated the Japanese on the early stages of the war and they crashed the Germans. And the British cicked Adolf's butt in the Battle of England and in Egypt! Not to mention the contribution of other nations to the great war, French, Australians, Polish, Serbs, Greeks etc.

Do not forget that most of the American people and their ancestors are comming from the Europian continent. England, Germany, Ireland, Italy, Russia, Poland, Spain, France, Greece etc. and South American who have come mostly from Spain or Portugal too.
I consider most of the Americans more or less as Europians. Yeah I know that many Americans come from different places than Europe like Africa, China, Middle East, India etc but their society and economical model looks like a fresh and optimized Western Europian copy with only difference the luck of some Europian style . Am I getting bad? No just teasing. To say the truth you have managed in a century to kick our Europian butt and extremely contribute to scientific developement which is maybe the most important aspect of the humanity. We love you but do not forget that you own a bit of your success to us the Europians so give us some attention and include less American achievements to the games and more "world" achievents .

[This message has been edited by Keygen (edited December 27, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Keygen (edited December 27, 2000).]

[jkadabomb]

Alright all you ppl complaining about why not all civs can build all the wonders. Think of as if building a wonder makes that civ the first to develop it and others soon follow. Like WIA, the rest of the nations get one but you just dont know it and you dont get the benifits since you didnt build it first. Makes sense? No, but ppl need to stop complaining and enjoy the game.

[Taranis]

quote: Originally posted by Keygen on 12-27-2000 09:21 AM And do not forget what the Russians had contribute to the WWII. They beated the Japanese on the early stages of the war

Actually, they declared war on Japan after the Germans were defeated and they managed to capture only a few (3?) small islands before Japan surrendered to the US.

And btw, I like the wonders the way they are, and I'm certainly not pro-American
[This message has been edited by Taranis (edited December 27, 2000).]

[Alpha Wolf]

I get paid and am American. Does that make me a pro-American?

wonder this, wonder that, blah, blah, blah.... People want wonders and all the good ones were taken, so Activision took what they could. Personally, I've added Code of hammurabi, magna carta, the national guard. Oooops, I need more american wonders

Cant we all just get along????????????? Except the French, they can go away

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History is written by the victor.

[Keygen]

quote: Originally posted by Taranis on 12-27-2000 05:03 PM Actually, they declared war on Japan after the Germans were defeated and they managed to capture only a few (3?) small islands before Japan surrendered to the US. And btw, I like the wonders the way they are, and I'm certainly not pro-American [This message has been edited by Taranis (edited December 27, 2000).]

Probably you don't know that the Russians had engaged in war between 1938 and 1939 with the Japanese before even the Germans got in war with the Russians. The Japanese were crushed by Zhuckov in the battle of Halhin Gol in Mongolian territory!
We Europians know better history than you the Americans simply because we have some .

[Taranis]

quote: Originally posted by Keygen on 12-27-2000 07:05 PM Probably you don't know that the Russians had engaged in war between 1938 and 1939 with the Japanese before even the Germans got in war with the Russians. The Japanese were crushed by Zhuckov in the battle of Halhin Gol in Mongolian territory! We Europians know better history than you the Americans simply because we have some .

Damn, thats even before WW2 started!
And no, I didn't know about that but thats probably because it was unimportant and I don't care about all those little Japanese-Russian wars before WW2.

The Russians may have determined the outcome of the war in Europe but they certainly didn't help the war against Japan.

Oh and I'm a EuropEan btw

[JC Denton]

American wonders=international wonders, got it?
I do not consider America a true country in the historical sense, I feel like it's a big modern colony with all of the great stuff from around the globe collected in one spot. It's like all the countries of the world allied with each other to create the most advanced nation possible...

And Americans, don't forget: you still speak English! which comes from Europe (GB)
So don't think you are better than them (the Europeans) cuz you are them! (grammar?)

And about all those wonders coming from USA - it's just a game and you are put there to show the AI opponents that every country can rule the world (and build all the wonders). And what could you expect from an america-based company?


Let's promote peace and equality in the whole world!
[This message has been edited by JC Denton (edited December 27, 2000).]