News for all the AI programmers out there...

Alisia · January 7, 2001, 09:14

Well, reading my post "If you have comments about..." sure pointed out something. We have a lot of AI programmers out here

AlphaWolf
Dale
The Viceroy
Alisia

And off course a lot of people that are familiar with the textfile system of CtP2.

Now, here my sugestion: in stead of talking crap about the AI, let's work together. Stand as a group, and we might get premission from Activision to "tweak" the AI. They might even be able to provide us with a comlete list of all the values the AI looks at, and those that it uses to make a move. That would allow us to try our hands at a better AI, and Activision wont have to do a thing.

Perhaps an idea?

January 7, 2001, 10:11

when it comes to the text files, you dont need any permission from activision to change anything in it....

unless you're talking about geting into the exe...

Alisia · January 7, 2001, 10:17

Okay... But do you think Activision might provide us with a list of all the commands? They probably have it lying around somewhere... Once we can get our hands on those, we can re-write parts of the AI, instead of just trying to change things...

BlueO · January 7, 2001, 12:16

Actually, I've already begun some slic programming to make the ai more challenging. I have done all I can to the text files. The ai is now able to conquer its neighbors (unlike the shipped version), but it still rarely attack me.

So, using the activision documentation posted earlier on the creation forum, I came up with a pretty simple attack ai, that should launch waves after waves of armies against the human player. Its simple:

1) AI picks a big stack of army.
2) AI moves that stack to nearest human city.
3) AI attacks that city.
4) repeat.

To make sure the AI won't send everything, it will only send one stack at a time.

I have some success getting the code to work, but I still got lots problems to work out. I'll probably post the result of the new ai, in the creation forum when I'm done.

colorme · January 7, 2001, 12:21

Alisia,

Clearly, you've not been following the AI modification posts in the 'creation' thread. You're a little late in suggesting this

MrLeN · January 7, 2001, 12:46

quote:

Originally posted by colorme on 01-07-2001 11:21 AM

Alisia,

Clearly, you've not been following the AI modification posts in the 'creation' thread. You're a little late in suggesting this

Clearly, so what if she hasn't?

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It's better to close your mouth and let everyone 'think' you're stupid, than open it and let everyone 'know' you are.

Alpha Wolf · January 7, 2001, 14:27

quote:

Originally posted by BlueO on 01-07-2001 11:16 AM
Actually, I've already begun some slic programming to make the ai more challenging. I have done all I can to the text files. The ai is now able to conquer its neighbors (unlike the shipped version), but it still rarely attack me.

So, using the activision documentation posted earlier on the creation forum, I came up with a pretty simple attack ai, that should launch waves after waves of armies against the human player. Its simple:

1) AI picks a big stack of army.
2) AI moves that stack to nearest human city.
3) AI attacks that city.
4) repeat.

To make sure the AI won't send everything, it will only send one stack at a time.

I have some success getting the code to work, but I still got lots problems to work out. I'll probably post the result of the new ai, in the creation forum when I'm done.

1. what activision documentation? or are you referring to the SLIC doc?

2. I've been having the same problem with my changes. The AIs pound each other, the barbarians pound on everyone but even they avoided my best defended cities. Altho i've lost many a city now. The biggest problems I see with the AI attacking are distance, and the pre attack AI calculation to determine if it can win. In my attempt to make the AI defenses better, I may have made it impossible for them to launch any attacks.

3. a single stack cant sustain an offensive very long. I've be victimized by some 12 unit stacks but with no replacements for their losses, eventually I win that war by wearing down their stack.

4. I'd be interested in what you already have done and compare it to my changes in whatever stage they are currently in.

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History is written by the victor.

Alisia · January 7, 2001, 15:49

Okay, this effort was shattered before it even started

Oh, well, fine with me. I can live with the old AI. I just thought I could contribute to the community. Seems I was wrong.

Ta, life is hard, no?

The Viceroy · January 7, 2001, 16:28

Alisia,

I agree with bases that we should be doing something about this .... Activision/Firaxis/who ever, should take the time to at the least play test using a selected group from Apolyton .. As they are software houses themselves, I can't see them asking for coding assistance .. although I would gladly help out (for a price).

I think there is a wealth of Civ experience second to none here, from the players who have just started, to us "old" CIV1 players .. We could make a difference..

Although I wouldn't refer to our AI knowledge as "talking Crap" .. i get your point, its pretty meaningless moaning once the ship is launched..

Activision (and others) .. please take note .. we'd like to HELP! .. and were always here to help you make the damn best game .. just SHOUT!

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"Wherever wood floats, you will find the British" . Napoleon
[This message has been edited by The Viceroy (edited January 07, 2001).]

BlueO · January 7, 2001, 17:30

quote:

Originally posted by Alpha Wolf on 01-07-2001 01:27 PM
1. what activision documentation? or are you referring to the SLIC doc?

2. I've been having the same problem with my changes. The AIs pound each other, the barbarians pound on everyone but even they avoided my best defended cities. Altho i've lost many a city now. The biggest problems I see with the AI attacking are distance, and the pre attack AI calculation to determine if it can win. In my attempt to make the AI defenses better, I may have made it impossible for them to launch any attacks.

3. a single stack cant sustain an offensive very long. I've be victimized by some 12 unit stacks but with no replacements for their losses, eventually I win that war by wearing down their stack.

4. I'd be interested in what you already have done and compare it to my changes in whatever stage they are currently in.

yeah, the slic code documation. That really helps a lot, without it, I don't think I could write a single line of slic code.

I have the same problem with the ai as you. Except for the one game I had in impossible, the ai rarely attacks me. And when they do, I have no trouble taking the cities back because the cpu only sends that one stack. I've changed all sorts of values in the ai text files, but the only real difference I've seen, is changing so the ai will use a lot more of its production points for unit support, and the siege powerbonus. I also put in coldenemy and neutral targets in the siege goal. After all, the cpu don't use dipolmacy on each other anyways. And I find it extremely lame that I can take a cpu city, get a ceasefire. Then repeat until the cpu has nothing left... not that ceasefire do all that much since the cpu is already so passive.

In my slic code, I take a big stack, and keep giving it MoveToPath order to a human city. The problem now is, the ai keeps taking that stack and order it to defend. I need to find a way to relinquish control when that happens. I also need a way to gather an attack force, instead of letting the cpu do it itself. In my observations, the cpu has tons of forces, but all of them are defending. I need to take a unit here and there, and move it to a gathering point. There's probably more problems I haven't foresee...

[This message has been edited by BlueO (edited January 07, 2001).]

colorme · January 7, 2001, 19:10

quote:

Originally posted by BlueO on 01-07-2001 04:30 PM
In my slic code, I take a big stack, and keep giving it MoveToPath order to a human city. The problem now is, the ai keeps taking that stack and order it to defend. I need to find a way to relinquish control when that happens. I also need a way to gather an attack force, instead of letting the cpu do it itself. In my observations, the cpu has tons of forces, but all of them are defending. I need to take a unit here and there, and move it to a gathering point. There's probably more problems I haven't foresee...

[This message has been edited by BlueO (edited January 07, 2001).]

I've tried the same approach a while back. My impression is that the MoveToPath order doesn't work as you'd think it does. Try the MoveToOrder (the one that moves only one square). That definitely works. Only problem is, it is not clear then how to make the stack move along a particular path.

Dale · January 7, 2001, 22:12

quote:

Originally posted by Alisia on 01-07-2001 08:14 AM
Well, reading my post "If you have comments about..." sure pointed out something. We have a lot of AI programmers out here

AlphaWolf
Dale
The Viceroy
Alisia

Alisia,

Actually, I've only done the basics of AI programming. My training at uni was designed more at designing and flowcharting an AI, not programming it.

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Rommell to a sub-commander outside Tobruk: "Those Australians are in there somewhere. But where? Let's advance and wait till they shoot, then shoot back."

Alpha Wolf · January 7, 2001, 22:56

I assume she was referring to game AI programming. I've only taken one elementary AI class and that was years ago.

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History is written by the victor.

BlueO · January 7, 2001, 23:25

quote:

Originally posted by colorme on 01-07-2001 06:10 PM
I've tried the same approach a while back. My impression is that the MoveToPath order doesn't work as you'd think it does. Try the MoveToOrder (the one that moves only one square). That definitely works. Only problem is, it is not clear then how to make the stack move along a particular path.

Unfortunately, MoveToPath order seems to be the best if I can write my own path finding slic code. MoveToPath still works, because by repeating the order forever, eventually it'll work when the ai gets tired.

I've seen the biggest stack on the board move in and out of a city as the slic code fights the normal ai code for control of that stack. Eventually, that stack will move toward me when the ai fills that city with some other units. (which leads me to think, each city must have minimum garrison filled...might have a solution to that)

The MoveOrder(army_t, GEA_Path, location_t, int_t) seems very interesting, but what the heck is GEA_Path and int_t? Hmm...maybe GEA_Path is a location array, and int_t defines how many items in that array?

The only order to work consistenly so far is the Battle order. I can give the Battle order anywhere in the world, and it'll eventually work...sort of. The stack will move toward one of its own cities, then suddenly, one of my cities will be attacked! Even if all of my defenders are wiped out, it won't be taken over because the ai stack isn't really there...weird, but I decided not to implement it because I want to see the ai approach my cities. Though, if all else fails, maybe I'll send each BIG stack I find the MoveToPath order to the human city, and pray that maybe one or two of them will make it through without the normal ai code taking them over.

I guess, this thread really should be move to the Creation forum.

Dale · January 8, 2001, 01:37

I took a bit of a look at the AI text files over the weekend, and IMHO, without actually being able to reprogram the AI, it's always going to provide a 2nd/3rd rate AI. By changing the text files there is just not that much we can do. So until Activision can release an AI which can kill me, I'm shelfing this game and gunna load up something else.

Maybe I'll have a go at SMACX. I never actually got around to loading it up even though I got it ages ago.

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Rommell to a sub-commander outside Tobruk: "Those Australians are in there somewhere. But where? Let's advance and wait till they shoot, then shoot back."

colorme · January 8, 2001, 01:59

Well, I was just suggesting that it may do her some good to go back and check what AI mods have already been attempted, before she goes about bad-mouthing the
"We want a better AI" camp.

A lot of these mods we've tried are not the "make random changes", that she once implied.

So, Alisia, to paraphrase what you said - Go and do something useful, instead of just being the defender of the AI!

Ok, I was kidding there ...