What Government would YOU support? - Page 2

Chris B · January 31, 2001, 17:31

quote:

Originally posted by MR. SADDAM on 01-29-2001 06:17 PM
BUSH ROXS

those who voted against him say "we dont need tax cuts" and when that tax cut comes in the mail they will be the happiest people

GO BUSH - WE ARE A REPUBLIC NOT A DEMOCRACY :O

What are you talking about??!!!!!!;mad: Bush is an INCOMPETENT LOSER!!!!
But aren't we her to tlak about civ, not polotix???

David Murray · January 31, 2001, 20:42

quote:

Nope, I voted for Bush becuase of Gore's postitions on gun control and other issues. While I don't agree with any of Bush's positions I find his positions much less horrible then Gore's openly socialist ones. While I would like to vote libertarian I need to yeild to practical concerns, and another 8 years under the democrats would not be acceptable to me.

So tell me, you find it preferable having the right to carry as much guns as you want? You don't favor any gun control, despite all the high school massacres? Okay, that's a whole other issue. But I find it surprising you value the rights of the market, the pro-gun lobby, etc, over the rights of women, who Bush is determined to quash, and the rights of those who favor increased tolerance of gays, more respect for the environment, etc. You may be a free market libertarian, but you certainly don't sound like a social one. As such, I doubt you're so much libertarian as an extreme anti-government conservative. A lot of people who call themselves "libertarian" are really extreme conservatives.

quote:

Up until this year most people didn't even know about the electoral college so I don't think that is a good explanation for the low turnout. I think that a better explanation would be that many find it distasteful to have to choose between a candidiate who you disagree with on every issue and a candidate who you "only" disagree with on most issues.

Believe you me, most people I speak to say that there's no difference between the candidates. Both Dems and Reps are sleazy to the public's eye. However, Bush won't reform any part of the electoral process. We need to exterminate the sleaze, the antiquated electoral college, the corporate influence in the media and in politics, and enthuse the public with new and innovative policies. Arguing over tax cuts may get some people going; but it does nothing for the millions out there homeless and living in poverty. Arguing over how to be tougher on drugs impresses reactionaries, the right and other old stalwarts, but for social libertarians and a growing number of people the war on drugs is looking increasingly inept.

We need a new lease of life in politics--welcome, Mr Nader.

[This message has been edited by David Murray (edited January 31, 2001).]

skorpion59 · January 31, 2001, 20:53

I have to agree with Chris.....

if you want to continue the political discussion, take it to the OT forum. This is a CtP2 forum.

EDIT: Markos, any possibility you could close or move this thread. This is starting to get out of hand.

[This message has been edited by skorpion59 (edited January 31, 2001).]

Action · January 31, 2001, 22:12

I am going to make this quick b/c I think the mods might want us to shut up.

You said: "You may be a free market libertarian, but you certainly don't sound like a social one. As such, I doubt you're so much libertarian as an extreme anti-government conservative. A lot of people who call themselves "libertarian" are really extreme conservatives."
http://www.lp.org/issues/
Read that, those are pretty much my positions on the issues, making me a libertarian. Now, the fact that you may not agree with those views is beside the point.

(I am done b/c the mods are getting mad.)

David Murray · February 1, 2001, 01:01

Okay, okay okay! I'm sorry, I won't talk about politics any more.

Shessh, some people are so tetchy! It's almost like you're forced to read this thread, or something.

[This message has been edited by David Murray (edited February 01, 2001).]

David Murray · February 1, 2001, 01:52

quote:

Originally posted by Action on 01-31-2001 01:15 AM
1)It would be inaccurate for you to call me a right wing nut. I actually don't appear on the right-left political spectrum at all (libertarian).

So you were one of the 0.1 percent of the population that voted libertarian, then?

quote:

3)The electoral college is not antiquated, it is a means to ensure that small states are not rendered completely insignificant in the presidential election.
If popular vote was all that counted then the candidates would only campaign in kali, florida, texas and the north east. It would be easy to pursue policy which favors high population states and causes harm to low population states. With the electoral college even the smallest states are worth something and so are less likely to be ignored when it comes to policy.

In our elections, under 50 percent of the population turns out to vote. Perhaps if we motivated people to vote by clamping down on sleaze, we'd have a proper democracy. But I think we should be less afraid of democracy and it's about time we let the people decide who is their President, instead of letting the states and the courts appoint him. After all, what's the point in a popular vote if we won't get a popular outcome?

OmniGod · February 2, 2001, 02:20

Alright time to weigh in... I am one for the greatest political freedom of a few, the enhancement of knowledge that I believe is true, the openning of churches to all that proclaim me King (would have choose God but thought I'd be a reservist), the freedom to procreate the population through my loins... that about sums up my great government and I was stunned when it worked so well in CTP2. Have you guessed my gov't... of course it's theocracy with the every few years of anarchy to control my subjects. Hey what can I say, I'm a evil dictator... like I've said before, if my cities don't produce well, what do I do... I sell them to another civ and then bombard the city... long live freedom in Omni's World

Yeah maybe it's true, maybe it's not... if it's not then I'll choose the Canadian Republic Dominion. Little "free" healthcare, no military, and lots of beer and hockey.

David Murray · February 2, 2001, 02:54

quote:

Originally posted by OmniGod on 02-02-2001 01:20 AM
Alright time to weigh in... I am one for the greatest political freedom of a few, the enhancement of knowledge that I believe is true, the openning of churches to all that proclaim me King (would have choose God but thought I'd be a reservist), the freedom to procreate the population through my loins... that about sums up my great government and I was stunned when it worked so well in CTP2. Have you guessed my gov't... of course it's theocracy with the every few years of anarchy to control my subjects. Hey what can I say, I'm a evil dictator... like I've said before, if my cities don't produce well, what do I do... I sell them to another civ and then bombard the city... long live freedom in Omni's World

Yeah maybe it's true, maybe it's not... if it's not then I'll choose the Canadian Republic Dominion. Little "free" healthcare, no military, and lots of beer and hockey.

just be thankful you don't have the death penalty and you have a national healthcare system. Believe me. You'd miss it if were to go.
[This message has been edited by David Murray (edited February 02, 2001).]

Alpha Wolf · February 2, 2001, 03:10

I propose the true form of government is the press. After all they were telling us who won long before most polling places even opened. here in Illinois we were told for weeks that Bush didnt have a chance in Illinois. i know many people who didnt take the time to vote (a lame excuse in my opinion) because either they were gore supporters and he was easily going to win Illinois, and bush supporters who didnt vote because it was a wasted vote. Then the news is announcing then retracking, then reannouncing a winner sometimes before people on the west coast have voted. Why go vote if the election has already been decided? i've always hated the electoral college until now. i just think it needs to be tweaked that instead of all or nothing, you get electoral votes for the number of representative districts you win and who ever wins the overall state popular vote gets the 2 votes that represent the senators.

I'm not exactly sure which game government this would fit under or if it even qualifies as either a republic or democracy. So i might add 2 new governments; pressacracy and something to represent my ideal electoral system.

I would find it interesting for some real life thoughts on government types. For instance, is communism itself bad, or just how its been implemented.

It seems to me that there are really only 2 types of governments: one the people get to freely elected, and one that is forced upon them. Everything else just seems like policy making to me. For instances, was Rome a republic(senate), a tyranny(military installed emperor), or a monarachy(emperor by birth right)? Were medieval european governments monarchies or theocracies?

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History is written by the victor.

TacticalGrace · February 2, 2001, 10:20

quote:

Originally posted by Alpha Wolf on 02-02-2001 02:10 AM

I would find it interesting for some real life thoughts on government types. For instance, is communism itself bad, or just how its been implemented.

...

For instances, was Rome a republic(senate), a tyranny(military installed emperor), or a monarachy(emperor by birth right)? Were medieval european governments monarchies or theocracies?

Communism was demonised by the US during the cold war. most people now don't understand what it is.
Note that Hitler's greatest enemies were communists both within and without.

Rome was a republic originally but this didn't last very long before someone worked out how much more fun a tyranny/despotism would be. This developed eventually vaguely into a Monarchy with a line of succession although often it wasn't the emperors actual blood line that was continued but an adopted son.

The English Monarchy was certainly not a Theocracy, at least not until Henry VIII. There were many disputes between the King and the Church - the Church had many powers independant of the King.

quote:

I think it's really funny how RepubliKKKans completely disregard the rights of black people, Jews, liberals, etc, yet are fanatically pro-armed forces. It's rather scary, to be honest.

funny how if you replace the word "Republican" with "Nazi" you often get a meaningful statement.

The original conception of the US by it's founding fathers was a state without taxes and hence without a permanent military. As a consequence we have the "right to bear arms" to allow for "a well formed militia" in place of a military.

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Do not be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed...

MrFun · February 2, 2001, 16:08

What is really interesting is that from after the failure of Reonstruction until 1965, the Southern states had an ethnocractic government based on a one-party dictatorship.

Poor whites for awhile in the south were denied the right to vote along with freed blacks and there was really only one party to vote for if you valued your property or your life - Democratic, because otherwise you would be lynched or have your house burned down.

Not to mention the fact that the counties of many Southern states had a police force that was inspired by the Nazi Gestapo forces of WWII Germany.

Steve5304 · February 2, 2001, 17:38

Mr fun you truly are an idiot.......arent you?
the south merely wanted to be left alone.They didnt want northeners telling them what they could and couldnt do. Southerners are different people from northeners. Understand? Southerners are Mainly French , Dutch, Native , and Welsh decent.North is English,German, and italian. Huge differences between the 2 existed.Southerners were Hunters , Farmers , Miners , Fur traders and would prefer to live without neighbors. Northeners were Factoryhands,Political activists,Scientists, Railroad workers , and would prefer to live near a grocery store.The differences are still obvoius today. Most southerners would rather Smoke a Hog and roll some green up.While the Federal Government in the north still thinks weed is bad and Hunting is evil.

The north was incapable of evening defeating the Rag and tag Army of Northern Virginia. Lee took this army and for 3 years chased the Yanks around at the battles of Mannasses , Bull Run, Antietnam , and Bull run 2.Only At gettysburg did the yankees finally learn that the Rebels were a superior fighting orce. You know when a Reb army of 80,000 Pushes a Yankee force of 290,000 all the way from Richmond to Pennsylvania is a much superior army.

The south never used Nazi Tactics you idiot. The Democratic party in control then (yes DEMOCRATIC , The political Grandfather of Clinton , Gore , Etc.) Allowed more freedom then the Republican North.Example- Service wasnt mandatory , Martial law wasnt imposed , and Southerners were free to do what they wanted.

These days the South Now not only has more people......it is more economically Powerful than the north. (florida and texas make up 17% of us economy alone)

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P.S. 'The south will rise again'
we are different people
[This message has been edited by Steve5304 (edited February 02, 2001).]

Emperor10 · February 2, 2001, 21:31

Technically, the Roman Empire as designed by Augustus(27 BCE- 14 CE) was an elective monarchy...the Senate elects the new Emperor when the old one dies, in THEORY anyways...in reality, Emperors fixed elections for thier kids/adopted kids, Generals would be declared Emperor by thier soldiers etc. Basically, whoever has the military under wraps would be Emperor, since the Senate can't very well not vote for you when you have guards pointing swords at their throats.

Darkknight · February 2, 2001, 22:35

Maybe I should rephrase the question sorry for bringing up this political thread Mark but I should have named it : What CTP2 Government do you agree with

And I've abbandoned my crazy idea that technocracy might actually be good.In my latest game i had a corp. Republic gov. with 43 cities (3 over the limit(I'd had a busy conquering session in mid-game where i conquered the largest empire in the world also i'd expanded around trying to find an ocean(stoopid me had set the ocean levels to 0))) I was all ready with settlers from disbanded cities to rush out and build and i had a huge army on my arch-enemies borders(I thought tech. had 60 cities) but when i got tech. i could only build 2 more cities.I then had to put my army on hold till i got virtual democracy(another 100 years)

By the way I thought i put a post in this thread asking for Questions for a modding FAQ that i'm writing i'm really desperate now and can't think of anything more.Reply here or in this forum or e-mail me @ Gondhi_dm@hotmail.com . If anyone wants to write a Question and answer i'll put it in with full credit 2 U.

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" mind over body "

MrFun · February 3, 2001, 00:19

Steve - do not stoop to name-calling. I was exaggerating.

There were important, deep differences between the norht and south. But do not overlook the violent racism that dominated southern politics.

David Murray · February 3, 2001, 05:40

MrFun is totally right in his summarization of the Southern states at that time...they were characterized by terror, burnings and lynchings by white-hooded kooks and police, official apartheid and racial tyranny...anyone who denies that fact is an ignorant revisionist who smears the memory of all those decent, honest black people who were brutally murdered at the time.

David Murray · February 3, 2001, 05:41

quote:

Originally posted by David Murray on 02-03-2001 04:40 AM
MrFun is totally right in his summarization of the Southern states at that time...they were characterized by terror, burnings and lynchings by white-hooded kooks and police, official apartheid and racial tyranny...anyone who denies that fact is an ignorant revisionist who smears the memory of all those decent, honest black people who were brutally murdered at the time.

I think I should point out that an "ignorant revisionist" is another way of saying a "Republican".

lol

MrFun · February 3, 2001, 12:47

I would also like to add to my defense: my major I'm studying for is BA in History, and minor in Writing.

And of course, I have done independent reading on pre-Civil War, Civil War and Reconstruction in the United States. The Ku Klux Klan was founded as a political terrorist organization by Confederate veterans to ensure the revival of the dominance of Democrats in the South.

Before the 1940s, the Democrats was the party of white supremacy while the Republican party was founded on racial idealism until Republicans betrayed the ghost of Lincoln.

And to understand the problems of gaining an earlier Union victory, you need to read about the Union generals and Confederate generals. It was not because the Confederate forces were superior - it was due to Union generals, before Grant, who put their personal ambitions ahead of destroying the Confederate army. Lee was indeed a great Confederate general, and Grant was an excellent Union general.

Steve5304 · February 3, 2001, 20:20

Yea but spreading such rumours about my Brave Sourthern Relatives Angers me. One marched and survived Picketts Charge.And another died at the Battle of Shiloh. I am proud of my Heritage and im proud of them !

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'the south will rise again'

MrFun · February 3, 2001, 21:10

I am sorry - I did not intend any personal attacks on any of your relatives.

I have read quite a bit material on this era, and based on that material one can conclude that the South fought to preserve slavery - not state rights.

David Murray · February 3, 2001, 21:30

quote:

Originally posted by Steve5304 on 02-03-2001 07:20 PM
Yea but spreading such rumours about my Brave Sourthern Relatives Angers me. One marched and survived Picketts Charge.And another died at the Battle of Shiloh. I am proud of my Heritage and im proud of them !

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'the south will rise again'

The truth hurts, boy.

And these aren't rumours, they're truths.

BTW it's nice to see you're living in the past. You can stay there for all I care; I don't want any redneck hillbillies marching on DC and telling me how great the old southern racists were.

MrFun · February 3, 2001, 21:34

Um David - we don't need to hurl insults. True, Steve started the insults, but let's not continue the insults. So far, I have stated facts based on the material I have read.

But anyway, this was a topic that has gotten more off the original subject of this post. Since I started this topic, I would like everyone to end this topic - no more posts on the history of the Southern states please.

Sean · February 3, 2001, 22:18

You would do well to remember that not all of us in this forum are Americans. As such, the constent bleating about the repubicrats and the North vs South, has fast become tedious. Either talk about civ governments or shut up.

David Murray · February 3, 2001, 22:38

Okay, let's end it.

Although I know this is the wrong place and everything, I still get my back up from people telling me to shut up when they are not forced to read this topic.

But I agree. If any of you want to debate politics, I recommend www.turnleft.com/interactive.html

MrFun · February 3, 2001, 22:47

Sean and David - thanks for agreeing with me.

Alpha Wolf · February 4, 2001, 01:03

cant we all just git along?????

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History is written by the victor.

Steve5304 · February 4, 2001, 01:39

hey david how old are you?

Redneck? i live in Racine wisconsin............My relatives are from the south. I dont listen to pointless Babbling from people like you. Confedrates were Heroes........Tho the war was lost...or was it? The Old Political party of the south has taken over American Politics? Southernern states through out reconstruction Legislation in 1974. In the South We have State holidays Celebrating the Rise of the south. We Call ourselves Confedrates.....not americans. The Desendents of Slaves are all Trapped in Urban Areas and live like animals,As drawn out bye Democratic President Jefferson Davis in the Marshall Plan .... Just in case the South lost the war.

Spend some time thinkin Murray..Who imposed whos will?
The Southern Democratic Party Became the Democratic Party.........And we made it look like we are Inclusive...to get votes

, Notice in 8 years Clinton has done 0 to get them out of the Ghetto.(He needs to keep them in one place so when the time comes to Ship them off or kill them off)

none of these comments are Racist.....But i am still Enraged at David calling me a Redneck.If He can Insult my Heritage , I have no mercy for his.

note to reader: i drink of beer tonight, and Cant stop yapping

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'the south will rise again'

Steve5304 · February 4, 2001, 01:46

Hey Murray............**** YOU

i see no more use for this thread now that its been taken over bye Slack-Jawed Gawkers who stop at nothing to put down other peoples Upbringing.......Even sending them Threatining EMAIL.

do it again and I will ~!?%@ nuke you murray........no kiddin

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'the south will rise again'

[This message has been edited by Steve5304 (edited February 04, 2001).]

David Murray · February 4, 2001, 08:54

LOL

Lock away your grannies, the hillbilly brigade has managed to get out of the mental hospital.

PS--the South is subjugated and will do as DC tells it, end of story.
[This message has been edited by David Murray (edited February 04, 2001).]

MrFun · February 4, 2001, 15:02

Here are some facts again from a History major student:

1) the South fought to preserve slavery - not state rights.

2) the South tried to force a fake government in the territory of Kansas through corrupt voting processes by Missourians before the Civil War

3) Southerners burned huamn beings alive after the Civil War through the 1930s

4) blacks are in ghettos due to lack of mobility available to them, poverty, and denial of opportunity

5) the South had a defacto one-party dictatorship based on white supremacy until the 1960s

There - END OF SUBJECT!!!!!! Note again for the visually impaired - E N D O F S U B J E C T!!!! NOTE AGAIN FOR THE REALLY VISUALLY IMPAIRED - E N D O F S U B J E C T!!!! END OF SUBJECT!!!!!!