Is nuclear war underrated

Genghis Al · December 24, 1999, 18:47

I am currently playing a game. Small world map, king. I started in south America the Persians in north. I am the Russians by the way. I killed the Persians with elephant stampede. I made Moscow my science city and the rest ISC one square apart caravan makers. Went trading, found the Greeks in Africa. They sneak attacked 3 caravans and paid with there lives. Then it was me (Americas, and Africa) and the French all of Europe and Asia. The French were very busy killing a lot of civ all game. Just me and them. But the thing was all of there 22 cities were 15-24. I only had 2 above 12. I had to stop them. So I got a big force. 3 howies, 6 tanks, 3 bombers, 1 carrier, 2 transports. Went over the sea and sneak attacked Paris. I had no problem with howies. The French split so Europe was Suox. Then the French built "it". The scourge of man. The Manhattan project. I had to build nukes or else I would be bullied by the French. So I did. After I while I used some spies to see what the French were building, wow, every city was making a nuke. I knew what I had to do. I took my 6 nukes into a sub. and pushed the red button of the coast of Asia. I hit 6 targets, then I let the tanks in Paris use the tracks to take it all. The French got pretty scared and peaced me. They had 1 city in Japan left. So before all the global warming and famine I had a great war. I say if you can organize and hit your enemy before he can do it to you... It is worth it.

That is just my opinion

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Ah man! Ghandi! New game.

-Genghis Al

Aurelius · December 24, 1999, 20:53

Hey Ghengis,
Can subs really carry nukes or is this just a literary vehicle?

Aurelius

lmstoudt · December 24, 1999, 22:14

Yes, they can.

Genghis Al · December 24, 1999, 23:58

Yes subs can carry 8 I think missle units, Thats rockets or nukes.

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Ah man! Ghandi! New game.

-Genghis Al

Aurelius · December 25, 1999, 04:45

Geesh, I have never used a sub this way. The help on sub doesn't mention this point but the description alludes to subs and nukes. Certainly makes sense! Maybe that is why the AI nukes reach my far away cities. Though I suspect (or it's been suggested) that they just have unlimited range.

Like Ghengis, I start scrambling when Manhatten Project gets developed. My spies are on supreme alert.

Someone once suggested that 5 Solar plants will offset most any global warming threat, but environmentalism is often the very last thing researched. I hate nuclear war! I'll sabatage the project if I'm able. Or I'll search and destroy cities with nuclear arsenals.

But does the AI every use subs to stealthfully deliver nukes like Ghengis? Very curious.....

Thanks, Aurelius.

Genghis Al · December 25, 1999, 18:32

Well I don't know if the AI can/does use the sub thing. But when I was nuking the hell out of the french. They never nuked any of my cities back in america. And they had a much bigger army and nuclear arsenal (most of wich I destroyed in my nuke rain)

So I don't think they do that

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Ah man! Ghandi! New game.

-Genghis Al

Aurelius · December 25, 1999, 19:10

Yeah Crustacian,

But how often does the AI use spies to plant nuclear devices--I'm afraid I've done this far more often than the AI

I had a game in which I really needed my ally to GO AWAY! They'd launched and I only had one or two parts built. So I took the spy and blew up a big city with three nukes. My civ was so powerful, that I wanted to get caught and wanted war with every other nation. We were the land of Howitzers and SDI and Stealth. Most annoyingly, we didn't get caught! So I had to usurp ally towns until a spy was caught. Then the fortuitous war commenced.

Aurelius the Magnificient (that day)

Oh, Ghengis, I can see that you take as much pleasure as I do crushing the AI. I wonder if we both talk to ourselves during battle....later comrade.

SandMonkey · December 25, 1999, 20:23

I normally try and stay away from nukes. I have only ever gotten hurt by them. But the whole "Planting a nuke" works very well. I had a game where a civ launched thei'r ship and it was to land one turn before mine. I took about 10 spies and went after the capitol (which had SDI, of course). About the 4th or 5th one nuked the city, and i dropped a paratrooper in. Over and done, i won that game. So all in all Nuclear war is not underrated, it's very effective, i think people are just wary of the reprocussions of using this strategy.

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SandMonkey

"Fear can sometimes be a useful emotion. For instance, let's say that you're an astronaught on the moon and you fear that your partner has been turned into Dracula. The next time he goes out for the moon pieces, wham!, you just slam the door behind him and blast off. He might call you on the radio and say he's not Dracula, but you just say, 'Think again, bat man'"

Crustacian · December 26, 1999, 01:17

Yes each solar plant neutralizes the effect ½ of 1 polluted square so they do help reduce risk of global warming.

I hate nukes!!! and mysteriously planted nuke devices which SDI can't protect from...

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The journey itself is the thing~Odysseus

Genghis Al · December 26, 1999, 02:22

Yes yes... I do talk to myself. I like to talk during the nagotioations with my enemies. they say "our words are backed with nuclear weapons" I am sitting there saying yeah yeah, i will show you nuclear weapons. It gives me satisfaction.

I just won my first intended conquest!!! I always go for AC. Last game the nuke was won it for me. But my score was terrible becouse of low POP (famine) and horrible pollution. Do you get more points for winning early?

P.S. that conquest abination is terrible!!! I should show my tanks rolling it to a city or somthing!

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Ah man! Ghandi! New game.

-Genghis Al

King Andre · December 26, 1999, 09:00

Genghis, you're missing a point, the AI USES the sub thing.

I first noticed that when Mongols blasted 9 of my cities in a single turn. I loaded the game again, toggled the cheat mode, revealed the map and I was amazed that Mongols had 3 submarines near my coast loaded with 6 nukes each! And all of their cities were off the range.

AI also uses submarines to carry Cruise missiles so that he can attack your battleships withoout the fear of losing them.

By the way, who uses Aircraft carriers?

Genghis Al · December 26, 1999, 17:52

To me aircraft carriears are just plan transports.

I always thought the AI gets to cheat with the nuke thing. I knew they has the missles though, I have lost many a battleship to that.

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Ah man! Ghandi! New game.

-Genghis Al

Aurelius · December 26, 1999, 18:12

So King Andre,

Does this mean the nukes are sleeping? I've often done spy investigation to see which cities have nukes, but I've never seen a sleeping nuke!

That must have been quite a shock--to be all out nuked. In those big mapped games, I'm pretty fast to put up SDI in my industrial complex in the homeland.

Now I'll always feel a bit of trepidation when I see a sub off the coast of my lands. And someplace on some podium, some world leader will be dangling a trinket dipicting a multiple warhead (Think it was Brezhnev? But that's twentieth century stuff.)

Aurelius

Puaxant Tuvip · December 26, 1999, 19:44

Nuclear war is overrated in my opinion. It makes it too easy. Look at the ww79 scenario in conflicts in civ for a good example of the ai using nukes and subs. They also use nukes and carriers. You can nuke all of china the first turn and conquer china and make peace with the US while you build up an invasion force. Conquer New York's UN make peace and stage nukes, howitzers, mech. infantry, and engineers there. Very effective.

Aurelius · December 27, 1999, 00:50

wrong thread

[This message has been edited by Aurelius (edited December 28, 1999).]

Peter Hennesy · December 27, 1999, 06:40

On the AI - sub - nuke thing.... interesting never realised the AI actually used subs (or carriers) for that matter. Played a few pacific scenarios where its essential and nothing seems to happen. Remeber the classic in a ww2 scenario when the US sent 3 aircraft carriers across the pacific... without any aircraft or support for that matter.

Woul be interested to try to it but Ive always thought that it was hard to fight a proper nuclear war because Im sure the AI cheats to find the location of my subs (no matterhow careful I am, they seem to just take the things out willy nilly). anyone else found this or am I just being sceptical again?

Puaxant Tuvip · December 27, 1999, 17:54

yep the ai knows where your subs are, so I rarely build them. Their movement is terrible anyways. I will use my unit the ballistic sub which has movement equivalent to a carrier and a good defense.

War4ever · December 27, 1999, 23:44

Well personally i believe nukes are great for lightning strikes.... and for takign out the opponents navy where there is no pollution. However be warned that nukes opens up a new can of whupass if your not carefull about it. Nuke a capital and four of the surrounding large cities and move your engineers in. Nukes are the ultimate power in the universe

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War is the answer when you need to strike first.

War is the answer when you think you should strike first

war is the answer when you think others may strike first.

Aurelius · December 28, 1999, 06:50

wrong thread

klesh · January 2, 2000, 01:06

I hesitate to develop nukes.
Everyone complaines about the AI war strategy, but it's Nuke War is not too bad.
You see, I always feel bad when I nuke a city, I'd rather overpower with tanks and howies. But the AI has No feelings. I've had them Nuke one city 3 times in a round, had entire regions (8 cities) befouled by polution, roadways destroyed. Defenders rendered non-existant. Not good.
If I do engage in Nuclear War I do Four things:

1. Have SDI's in ALL my cities.
2. Make the strike preemtive
3. Make the strike quick (1 turn)long
4. Follow up with Paratroopers, then move in transports with defensive units and engineers. (A must)

And get the War overwith quick, nothing worse than a lingering bloodbath.

[This message has been edited by Field Marshal Klesh (edited January 01, 2000).]

War4ever · January 2, 2000, 22:59

I totally understand the need for engineers but i will nuke with absolutely no hard feelings if need be ...... and then later clean the mess

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They call me Mr. Fierce

My Wife Hates CIV · January 2, 2000, 23:44

I've used subs in the past to bring nukes in range of the AIs large cities. The AI does not attack subs with cruise missiles the same as when you bring a battleship in range. I can move to the AI homeland, unload all the nukes and move away without a single cruise missile attack. I wish subs could hold a few marines also. Can you do that in a *.txt file??

Bohlen · January 3, 2000, 11:33

Just finished up a game where those pesky Indians built the Manhattan Project. I never allow this to happen, but I was unable to prevent it this time. Anyway, I thought the game might be over because I was looking at about 2008 and 10 or so Indian cities left to go. With the AI having nukes, I thought my 1 city per turn plan would fail. Well, as I have been in very few nuclear wars (back when I first started playing...ignorant warmonger), I was looking for the usual AI cheats that would allow my stronghold on the Indian continent to disappear. However, it did not happen, but almost did. The Indians used 2 nukes and I used only 1 for the rest of the game. I didn't even build my nuke, but took it when I bribed a city. Although I almost lost my new capital of Bombay during a nuke strike, the combination of my cruise missiles and my 1 nuke won the game for me. I thought that whenever the AI could build nukes, I would never survive or that the war would go on forever, destroying the world. I was wrong. Even though it does seem like the AI does a better job at warring when it has nukes, it still doesn't follow through all the way.

Yeah, I know...play MP for a real challenge. Ok. Anyone for a game?

SandMonkey · January 4, 2000, 22:20

Bohlen, you're right. The AI rarely follows through with it's wars. I, myself, like to have a large initial attack force, and then have a steady stream of reinforcements coming to back myself up, just so i don't get spread too thin. That's what tends to happen to me in Nuclear wars, i take too many cities at once, and then if you don't follow through right away.... well i am pretty sure that's happened to some of you before.

Fistleaf · January 5, 2000, 03:40

To see what real nuclear war should be like, try SMAC. Entire cities blasted to oblivion, leaving huge craters. Adds to pollution that cannot be negated ever. Whole planet flooded by global warming.

Bohlen · January 5, 2000, 10:21

I hear you SandMonkey. I'm probably too careful when it comes to making sure I don't spread out too thin. Must be why my conquer games go on for a while.

jlmk · January 5, 2000, 21:32

Wow!You can use nukes or cruise missiles in subs to attack a city? Wow!

jlmk · January 5, 2000, 21:33

Darn.My first double post.
[This message has been edited by jlmk (edited January 05, 2000).]

klesh · January 7, 2000, 01:30

I'm almost certain that if the ai can't see your subs, they sure can see the nukes or cruise missiles IN the sub!

If you notice, when you finish moving a sub that has sleeping missiles, the missiles overlap the sub in the stack.

Can they see the ICBM's poking out of the water?!? Ha

Mad_Conquest · January 24, 2000, 07:41

Nuclear war can be quick and fun, or it can be long, bloody, and gory. I rarely actually have HAD to face a nuclear war, usually I am so far ahead in tech it's spooky, but one time it was BAD. I was USA and I had spent thousands of years building on my technology. I had gunpower based techs while the other civs, all in europe, asia, and africa, just were still researching feudalism. I arrived in europe and all hell broke loose, by the time I had modern tech they all had nukes and were pounding me into dust (diplos). It took me a few hundred years of constant nuclear war with every civ against me before I finally managed to dig out and win, it wasn't pretty though.