Vet units? Great, but where do they come from?

[MyOlde]

Many on this site casually talk about having vet units do this or that. And I understand the value of a unit being a vet. However, where do you create your vet units, especially early on when you have so many things to do?

Let's say you have 5 cities just established. You don't really know where the other civs are. Do you therefore build barracks in all 5 cities? Or most of them? Or one of them?

The way I have been going recently (on Deity) is build a city, then build a warrior, then build a settler, then build a phalanx. I then hope the warrior+phalanx will be able to hold the city while it either starts building a marketplace or perhaps a temple. Or HG, GW, and GL.

So where in all of that is there room to build one or more barracks?

Sorry to be so wordy but, in addition to where one puts one's cities, it seems to me these first baby military steps are crucial as well.

Thanks as always for whatever thoughts you may have.

[Ri-jon Boom!]

First of all, build Sun Tzi's war acadamy. Every unit will be veteran, and if it's not you just have to win one battle and it will be.
I have heard people say to build barracks in one city, then build only units there. whenever a unit is complete, send it to another city to claim suport from there. I never use it because it takes too long.

[Ming]

Yeah... but Civ is a long game. I will usually build one barrack in a city near potential danger zones, and use it to build the vet units I will need. I just send them back to my other cities (and as pointed out) and attach them to whatever cities they are going to stay in. If you have a large empire, one barracks city on either end can usually do the job. A vet phalanx in a city can usually defend against anything early in the game... especially if it's sitting on a river. And if you build cities on plains or grasslands, they are a must.
Oh yes, and build the wonder if you can

[MyOlde]

Okay, Ming, you've probably got the right way. Tell me, then, do you just stick with that one little warrior or maybe two in newer cities waiting for the barracks to crank out vet phalanxes for the other, say, 4 cities?

Sun Tzu is great of course but it comes along considerably later in the game. I'm speaking of those first few precious and fragile years when each decision (I'm discovering at Deity) is really quite critical. Sometimes the bad civs don't appear for awhile but sometimes (because of the location the computer gives you) they're right there in your face before you can turn around.

Perhaps geofelt's tactic is the only way to handle them: give them ANYTHING they ask for in the beginning. But I hate having to give them my hard-earned gold or advances.

[Ri-jon Boom!]

Fuedalism is usually one of my first adances. I go:
1.Bronze working
2.Alphabet
3.Code of laws
4.Ceremoniel burial
5.Monarchy
6.Horseback riding
7.Fuedalism

I take or research all of these, and whenever I am not given the option of one, I research pottery.

[Ming]

My early science path is ANYTHING that gets me to Monarchy. If I can't take a science that leads there because it isn't offered, I will then take writing, pottery, or bronze.

As far as early defense goes, I build 2 or 3 of the best units I can asap. I always build a warrior first just to get "some" defense... but my second unit will be a phalanx if I have bronze, unless I see unhappiness problems ready to happen... then I would build a second warrior instead.
When I start sending the vet phalanxes back to other cities, I will disband any of the weaker units once the city has three defenders. I can't remember the last time I lost a city to barbs or anybody early in a game. I love barbs... free money for their kings

[Sieve Too]

I generally play the beginning a bit differently. After Monarchy, I like to get Pottery for HG and then build that. With HG, I have the effect of the Colossus in the city where HG is built due to WLTKD. Building Colossus there too is a great. But the next thing I really want is Monotheism. So Mysticism, Polytheism, Philosophy (free advance), Monotheism and Writing somewhere in there.

For defense: forget veteran units, Phalanxes, Pikemen and Sun Tzu. I build good ol' fashioned Warriors for as long as possible. Nah, they can't stop even a lame Horsemen, but who cares? They're cheap and provide martial law as good as anything else. With early Diplomats, Elephants and eventually Crusaders, the best defense is a good offense. Hit 'em before they hit you. Since rapid expansion means lots of small cities with no improvements (Temple sometimes), the occasional loss of a size 1, 2 or 3 city is no big deal. Diplos bribe it back for cheap.

With Monotheism, MC is now in your hands. This solves your unhappiness woes while giving you powerful Crusaders to thwart invaders. After MC, I backfill a lot of missing science for buildings and start thinking about Republic.

[geofelt]

Early on, the first four cities are critical. If you play barbarians at raging hordes, or one lower, you must protect against them. I research bronze first, partly to get a potentially good defender, and partly to get a wonder I can start on. If I meet a rival, I give them ANYTHING to get peace if necessary --they won't ask for anything you don't have--. I also offer to trade techs and take any advance leading to monarchy. I think I get one more often than I must take a tech not leading to monarchy, thus delaying monarchy. The AI has a long memory of initial war, and it won't stop until it hurts you some. You can't let this interfere with the critical early cities.
The first barb attackers are horsemen(2), chariots&archers(3), and legion(4). I don't know if they are vets, in which case, the attack values are higher. To defend, a basic phalanx, fortified(3) is not enough; you need an extra defensive bonus. I like to found a city on a river which is usually enough. Not all cities can be well situated, so a vet phalanx is needed. The palace city seems to have extra defense against barbs early on, but I try not to count on it.
After the first two cities are founded, I build a warrior for some defense, and some riot control. Then each builds a settler and founds cities 3&4. The palace starts on a wonder, and the second city builds a barracks if it has decent shield capacity. Then city2 builds vet phalanx for all four cities. These vet phalanx provide defense and riot control. Against the AI, I can usually build one or two before the barbs show up.
Cities 3&4 build settlers which are used to build roads or possibly a mine for city1 or 2. They do not usually build city5 until after monarchy or hanging gardens because of riots.

[DaveV]

I agree with ST that the best defense is a good offense (or even the threat of one). I start out building warrior, horsemen, settler. I use the horsemen for hut hunting and exploration. The settlers build roads and more cities. When happiness becomes a problem, I build a second warrior in cities that need it. If I bump into an AI, they fall over themselves begging for peace and offering tribute. If the barbies attack, I try to pick them off with horsemen, or bribe them if I have diplos.

In the early game, you must concentrate on tempo. Build up lots of cities and units as fast as you can; don't waste money on improvments until you need them. The AIs' respect for you seems to be based on the number, not quality, of your units. So if you have twenty non-vet warriors and ten non-vet horsemen, they will cough up money or techs any time you ask.

Back to the original topic: I don't think anyone mentioned that you can acquire vet units by winning a battle. This always works if you have STWA; I think it's a 50% chance if you don't. Moving into an empty city will make your unit a vet and heal all of its damage.

[Ming]

DaveV... I know moving a unit into an empty city heals it all the way, but are you sure it makes it a vet. I had many non-vet units move into empty cities, and not turn into vets. Was I asleep?

[Theben]

You're right, Ming, you can only get a vet if it survives combat (50% chance of becoming vet) or being built with barracks or Sun Tzu. My research priorities are to get Monarchy ASAP then bronze working (which takes longer for me 'cuz my mod has Pottery as pre-req) then Philosophy for the free tech. On the way I get writing, which is my main defense against barbs. Buy 2 horsemen, then have one of those kill the leader. 2 more units in your army and a net surplus in the bank!
As for vets, don't sweat it. There are other ways to avoid being attacked. In the case of barbs your best plan is to spread your settlements out quickly, filling in any gaps soon after (early expansion is always good). This limits uprisings. For other civs, also expand, but towards them, not away. Look for a chokepoint and either settle there or build the best defense there you can. This limits the other civs ability to grow stronger towards your 1st cities (which will always be your best cities). Ideally you'll want either a fort on a mountain or a city on a hill (special forest/jungle+ river works too) with 2 of your best vet defenders (minimum), a diplomat/spy, and one offensive vet unit (minimum). You'll want barracks if it's a city, even if you have Sun Tzu, for the healing benefits. If it's a fort you'll need a city w/ barracks nearby, and a road to the fort.
This is against the AI. For MP talk to someone else; I haven't played it yet.

[cavebear]

Getting back to MyOlde's question about how to gain vet status in the early game...

I think the fastest way is to get a warrior to a goody-hut. Most times, those give me a horseman. With the horseman, seek out another goody-hut until you get a barbarian attack. In MP, this seems to provide barbs on a single square, and an immediate attack usually wins and gives vet status. When I have ahorseman at a hut, I stop one square short on that turn to assure full movement on the next. I want to be able to attack those barbs on the same turn!

There are few things as useful in the first years as a vet horseman! And, if you can manage a None Horseman, so much the better...
[This message has been edited by cavebear (edited October 07, 1999).]

[Theben]

This depends on what level you set the barb uprisings at. If you set it at "raging hordes", that plan will work the 1st couple of times you step on a barb hut, but after that your unit will be instantly surrounded with up to 8 barbs, a no-win situation. You could try the twin dip scout strat, in which the 1st steps on the hut. You are now surrounded by 7 barbs, because the other dip took up a space. You now use your 2nd move to bribe a barb, and the other dip bribes 2. With your 3 new units, attack the other 4 (unless they are move 1 units; then attack 3). You should have most of your units live and may get a vet or two in the process.

[DaveV]

Ming,

It appears you're right - I started a new game and dropped a warrior next to four AI cities using cheat mode. None of the four warriors became vets by taking the empty city. Just my memory failing me, I guess...

I think this experiment did give the answer to another vexing problem, though. Two of the four civs had units active outside their city. In both of those cases, I got a message saying "French civ destroyed by Romans" when I took the city. Then came a second message "French civ destroyed by barbarians" and the unit disappeared.

[Sten Sture]

DaveV - was your test with Sun Tzu's? I have no idea, but it makes a little bit of sense that capturing an empty city would be considered winning a battle...

[Sten Sture]

There is a first for everything!

[Ming]

Gee, I was right for a change. There is a first time for everything

[DaveV]

SS,

No, I didn't have STWA in the original test. I re-ran the test with STWA, and again four out of four archers failed to become vets after taking an undefended city. An archer that attacked a defended city did become a vet, so STWA was working properly. Ming is right, I was wrong. End of story.

[rah]

OK, everyone seems to throw around that 50% chance of becoming a vet after surviving a combat. Is that right? Is it the same if you attack a barbarian king? It just seems to never happen 50% of the time. My experience is closer to 25% or less. Any one else want to share there perception of this. I just don't believe 50% no matter what the rules say.

RAH
[This message has been edited by rah (edited October 12, 1999).]

[Ming]

I have to agree with Rah on this one. (again, duh)

With regular combat, 25% seems more in line to the reality of actual results.
But, barbarian kings... I'm lucky to get a vet about 10% time.

Anybody ever run any tests on this "fact"

[Paul]

I never ran any tests on this and I'm not much of a warmongerer but I'd have to agree that the chances of getting vet units must be lower than 50%

[SandMonkey]

*~*~*~BUMP~*~*~*

There's a lot of good things in here on early defense, vets (duh), and such. I figured a lot of the newbies (not to mention myself, i picked up a couple new i deas in here that i will try out) can use.

------------------
SandMonkey

"Shut up brain or I'll stab you with a qtip"
-Homer Simpson

"Ecky eck ecky!"
"It's just a flesh wound!"
- Monty Python and the Holy Grail

[My Wife Hates CIV]

I build barracks in all my cities. In MP it seems to be the first thing destroyed when attacked by diplos. Better than having that temple destroyed. I also love the gold bonus you get when reaching the techs that allow the next level of barracks, nothing like a 600 gold bonus! (or whatever you happen to get). I'm poor most of the time so it really helps.

[BlackJack]

Somewhere between my fourth and sixth city I build a barracks and start building elephants. I should have Polytheism by then. And, like others, send them off to my capital and frontier cities. Like others, I also believe a good offense is the best defense and elephants are as good as it gets for me for quite awhile. I'll also consider vet archers. Vet any other early unit just doesn't work for me - other stuff looses too often to barb legion showing up at an unwalled city.

Yeah, I'd like to build a marketplace or library but what I really like is to grin when I see the barbs approaching. Later, with walls or better defensive units, I can let them attack and then pick-up bucks for their useless leader. So bite the bullet - build the barracks.

As my civ spreads and I need other improvements in my barracks city, I'll build another. Only if I'm in a really hot neighborhood where I need quick healing will I build a third prior to Mobil Warfare.

I love Sun Tzu and really try to get it but not 'til much later. Too much higher priority stuff for awhile. But if one of the warlike civs is after it, I up its prioity - I hate vet Mongols. I even hate vet Sioux.

And I know it's supposed to be 50/50, but without Sun Tzu it seems really hard to get a vet.

[MyOlde]

Interesting to see this one come back.

Question: MWHC, if you build barracks in every city, can you do without either city walls or the Great Wall? I'm looking to save a little production here, either within my cities or in Wonders.

I suppose the question really is: what is the ideal MINIMUM effective defense?

[MyOlde]

Sorry, that's too wide-open a question. Should have said: In the early game, when you're scrambling to get everything going in some kind of balance.

[Steve Clark]

MyOlde: My typical strategy in the early game (no matter if it's bloodlust or AC) is to build 2 phalanx in each city at first, then the Great Wall and then pikemen (either building them or upgrading through Leo). That defense will suffice well into the AD against the AI and barbs. It doesn't matter if they are vets or not, it hasn't failed me yet.

Against the AI two phalanx/pikemen seems sufficient. I usually build barracks in my second city, and then start popping out phalanx until I have to build an improvement to stay out of disorder. Usually a newly minted phalanx tags along with each settler sent out to found a new city.

As the empire grows and travel distances to the newer cities gets long I establish more barracks cities. Then the first barracks city switches over to chars/elephs/knts. At some point I also pop out a dip for each city.

I only build walls if I end up being near a quarrelsome neighbor. Then once I'm suitably walled I tell them to go jump the next time they demand tribute.

[Sivro]

I never bother with city walls or barracks early in the game. I'd rather put two phalanxs in each city and have a few offensive units. The key is to build tons of settlers. I use some of the settlers to build roads between my cities quickly. This way, if uninvited guests show up near your cities, you can quickly move in some backup. An early, extensive system of roads is a high priority with me.