Openciv3 - Technology

[amjayee]

Technologies

Created: May 23rd 2000
Updated: -

This is a description of a technology system for the game. I will be updating it according to the discussion. eventually here will also be a list of the technologies. From the beginning of the description you can see, when it was updated, and what was changed.

Information should be divided to theoretical and applied - science and technology. Technology is knowledge about how certain thing is done; science is knowledge about why that is possible. Deeper understanding leads to better technology, and so on.

Scientific information could include:
-natural sciences like mathematics, physics, biology, medicine
-human sciences like philosophy, psychology
-economics
-geography
-history
-military science (tactics): infantry tactics, cavalry tactics...

Technological information could include:
-military technology like sword making, cannon making, machine guns...
-transport technology like shipbuilding, airplanes...
-agricultural technology like farming, domestication...
-community technology like road building, sewer building...
-etc.

My idea is, that each of those fields would have a certain value: scientific fields would have a certain level of knowledge, technological fields would have a certain level of skill. The higher the value, the better you understand the mathematics or the better swords you can make.

When the skills are used, some CE will be spent to achieve better and better results. Once a certain level of skill is achieved, some CE will be needed to maintain the skill. If you don't build ships for centuries, it will be hard to start over again.

Scientific knowledge increases in the same way, but much slower; however, scientific information won't disappear as easily, but it is more dependent on written information; if the libraries and universities are destroyed and scientific work is not continued for some decades, the information will start to be forgotten quickly.

The key element of this system is, that there are many smaller fields of information, and they are all developed simultaneously. You don't need to spend centuries to discover "the ultimate sword"; even the most primitive swords and firearms kill people. Instead, you learn quickly, what a sword should be like; then you will slowly learn to make better and better swords. This gives small bonuses to your troops using swords as weapons.

Certain revolutionary ideas make rapid changes in science and technology. Newton's laws caused great progress in physics. Damasc steel gave the sarasenes great advantage during the crusades. Let's call those advances "milestones". Most advances used in former civs go under this category. Those ideas cannot be kept secret very well; the news about the breakthrough travel quickly to other civilizations. However, the civilization to reach the milestone first should get some kind of bonus. After some time the others could get a bonus, too, but smaller. Example: civilization x develops damasc steel. This causes dramatic enhancement in sword technology and gives the civ x a 10% additional bonus for their swordsmen. Civs y and z hear quickly about the advancement and learn the secret, too. After some turns they will get a 5% bonus to their swordsmen, but the civ x still has a slight advantage.

In order to learn the secrets of certain field of information, some requirements need to be met: for example, to learn how to domesticate horses the civ needs to have some experience on domestication of other animals. For scientific information there could be some "infrastructural" prerequisites: in order to research philosophy, you need to build at least one academy etc.

When the prerequisites are met, certain amount of CE would be needed in order to find the new field of technology. The amount of CE needed shouldn't be excact, but a value "betweem x and y", and when the total amount of CE is between those values x and y, there would be each turn a certain possibility to make a breakthrough. This would create an element of randomness, which add realism. Especially with the milestone ideas this simulates the fact that often great geniuses make the final effort to combine the information properly.

When the new field of information has been found, certain amount of CE would be needed to advance in level: when certain progress has been made, some CE and perhaps some practical exercise is needed to maintain that level; for instance, if you spend X turns not building or repairing any ships, your shipbuilding skill goes down. One prerequisite for progress on certain field could be certain progress on some other field. This is how it has been in our world, too.

The produced CE should be distributed 1) depending on how much the skill is used 2) with some random factors thrown in 3)the player could choose how to emphasize the development; when certain level of excellence is reached, the player would choose to slow down the development on that area and emphasize some other area. On scientific fields, player's funding and emphasizing should be most important factor.

The information "leaks downhill" from civ to others; this means that if civ x is better shipbuilder than the others, the shipbuilding skills of civ y make certain progress because of the "leakage", depending on the connections between those two civs. Usually there is no way to prevent this, and the system should be, that it wouldn't even be wise. They get some of your technology, and you some from them. This also makes the differences between civs smaller. Not fair, perhaps, but realistic. The exchange of scientific information should be much more effective; the scientists from different countries have always cooperated. The progress on scientific fields should be so difficult, that the cooperation would be indispensable. This would add realism.

In the modern world, perhaps after some milestone has been reached, you could build secret labs and make certain information "classified" to make the leakage smaller. By using espionage it shouldn't be possible to steal the whole technology the others have; You should order your spies to "infiltrate" other civilization and use many turns to slowly raise your own level of skill; each turn there would be a possibility that other civ's counter-espionage units notice your actions, depending on their espionage skills.

The good sides of this system are guite good realism and versatility; you don't need to spend centuries to gather a large enough pile of information to be able to build frigates; instead, you can slowly enhance your skill and make your ships better and better. Also, you can research many fields simultaneously.

The bad side is its complexity; but if the system is created skillfully, the hardest part would be to balance the system and synchronize the techs.

I hope I can update this soon. -amjayee

[markusf]

Perhaps if you develop certain advancements like steal, bronze working navigation. There should be a certain cost associated with it. maybe a 200 shield wonder that once build would represent a steal mill, foundry or a shipyard in every city? That allows you to produce these new units. Also certain techs should not be allowed to be stolen by the enemy. Also you shouldn't be allowed to steal flight when you just got warrior code.

[amjayee]

markusf:

I really like your new wonder idea. It will definitely be added.

Also tech stealing will be different... I think a civ shouldn't be able to steal a tech in a complete package; rather, a spy could increase the progress in certain tech slightly by stealing some notes, memos, test results etc., and only if his civ has all prerequisites for the tech. Also a spy could infiltrate the research facilities of another civ, and cause some of the results "leak" his civ, thus increasing progress in that area. Also spies could steal a unit, and the scientists could study it and learn something... Also if unit prorotypes are used (perhaps that will be the case at least with modern units) the prototype could be photographed making the job of creating your own prototype easier.

The key idea in the tech system is that many techs are researched simultaneously. Also you cannot discover entire mathematics at once, but slowly increase your knowledge of it. Certain progress in mathematics then can allow you some other tech, without need to discover all of it. I will try to refine my tech ideas soon.
[This message has been edited by amjayee (edited May 30, 2000).]

[markusf]

moo2 and birth of the federation would be great models to work from in terms of military and tech + spying

[amjayee]

markusf:

I haven't played those games. Could you make a brief summary of the main tech etc. ideas in them that you think could be used in our game? I think adapting best ideas from other games in the genre (or in other genres if they are good) is only wise. Additionally, if we copy ideas from many games, we cannot be blamed for cloning some particular game...

[markusf]

moo2, you can strike up a research treaty with another civ. First it starts off negitive(You pay cash) Then after 3-6 turns, depending on how big the 2 of you are the trade route goes positive. As soon as it goes possitive you get that many beakers assigned to your civ.

Birth of the federation. Cities are allowed 3 trade routes, those trade routes are achieved once your "city" reaches a certain size. So size 4 city is allowed 1 trade route. Size 9 city 2 routes etc etc.

[The Joker]

Yeah, the trade and science pact from moo2 should be added. But it should be more complex, and it should take longer for it to turn positive. In moo2 there was no reason to not make trade and science pacts with everybody, as they would almost immidiately give you credit. Sometimes it should be better to not make trade or science pacts with other civs.

[Guildmaster]

Here's something you might consider, and this will help to make the actual gameplay a lot less brainwork for the player... technology could be automatic and circumstantial.

Here's what I mean: A Chinese Emperor didn't set out and say "I'm going to research Gunpowder." It was discovered by accident when he commissioned his greatest scholars to try and discover the secret to eternal life. Plus, a lot of military advancements are more cause than effect... for example the use of Blitzkrieg method of warfare using mobility and combined forces to overcome superior firepower had more to do with the existence of the Maginot Line and the need to figure out a solution than the Germans' desire to discover the concept of mobile warfare. Presence of a problem has always spurned great advancement... in the medical field during times of plague, in the military field during times of war, etc.

There should be milestones, like you suggest (I like that idea) this would be the development of steel... and there are minor advances like the method of folding developed by samurai sword makers. Whatever the use, I do think that technology needs to be accidential and required if not subsidized.

[amjayee]

Guildmaster:

I totally agree. My intention when I created the "skill level" idea was to add some randomness and "accidentality" to the tech system. So, the basic technological and scientific fields advance steadily due to the work by your scientists. Then, when certain level of knowledge/skill has been reached, it is possible, that in certain circumstances you discover some "milestone" or "advance" as in former civs. I like your idea of smaller milestones and greater. Perhaps the greater milestone the advance is, the easier it will spread to other civs. When one civ has discovered milestone x, the surrounding nations have a larger possibility to discover it, depending on their connections to the discovering civ. And of course they need to have the prerequisites for the milestone.

Prerequisites for a milestone can be a certain level of skill/knowledge in some fields, and in some cases another milestone. When the knowledge in other fields exceed certain level, it is more and more possible for the milestone to be discovered. Also each milestone could have a "situation" in which it is much more possible to discover it - even if all the prerequisites are not met.

[Guildmaster]

I have the perfect idea regarding the "rolls downhill" concept. We could use a combination of rewadring the first civ to develop the new technology and penalize those that don't.

Par example, Say the Chinese develop "Standardized measurements". They now use the "Chinese system of measuring." Now if the Japanese aquire the concept of standardized measurements from the chinese, they also use the "Chinese system of measuring" just like we Americans use the English system today. If the Philipinos don't aquire the chinese system but develop it on their own, they use the philipino system of measurements. Trade between the two countries would be slightly hindered when products have to be remeasured, but an insignificant ammt. If for whatever reason the Chinese force the Philipinos to change to their system of measurements, the Philipinos would have to pay money, resources, and energy, and they would lose time on trade, research, and etc. Very costly. Now say 54 years later the Japanese develop the "Metric System." The Japanese would then automatically convert to metric for free. Everyone else would be faced with a dilema, to either pay out the yin-yang to convert to the metric system, or to suffer random acts of loss (like NASA) due to the co-existence of the two systems?

This model can be used with technologies that are concepts. But what about products?

In the 17th century, a french monk by the name of Dom Perignon discovered a wine that was bubbly and very good. Since then, everyone else has copied his invention and although some sparkling wines are perhaps every bit as good as those made in France, they are not true champagne. For over three-hundred years the sparkilng wines from the Champagne region of France have enjoyed a reputation for authenticity and superiority. Of course this instills high morale and great pride in worksmanship thus further reciprocating superior craftsmanship. These winemakers Krug, Dom Perignon, Salon, and a host of others have made quite a luctative business out of it one can imagine.
Across the ocean, have you ever seen those license plates which state "First in Flight"? Over a century after the wright brothers' little kite-flying ordeal and need I bring up Mr. Armstrong's small step for man? Being the first nation to discover something or build something or accomplish something has always been a source of great national pride and if nothing else, ought to instill many compound bonuses in gameterms.
Morale is higher...
Patriotism and unity go skyrocket...
Trade revenue is better...
I mean, why do you think the French are they way they are? Because they discovered lots of stuff, just watch the history chanel... the stethascope, pasteurization, the portable toilet, mobile warfare (yes, General DeGaulle was ostricized for his ideas on warfare not based on fixed positions and trenches) also the guillotine and of course, champagne.

[pris]

There's a good tech tree artice here;
http://gamasutra.com/features/20000531/watrall_01.htm

[Guildmaster]

I totally agree with this guy. Technology isn't a matter of, "We're going to discover stealth next"

[amjayee]

Guildmaster:

Yes, those things should be possible. For every advance, we should be able to program that kinds of features. Also the "first to discover" thing should be there.

pris:

Also I completely agree with the article writer. I will see how we could use the points presented in it in our game.

[This message has been edited by amjayee (edited June 12, 2000).]

[Maniac]

May I make another suggestion for distinguishing technologies.

Military, Economic, Academic, Social, Applied, Farming

Indeed, mostly like Civ2. You don't have to throw something away if it's good.

I would create 3 or 4 ways on which technologies are researched/discovered/leaked.

The first way is for Academic techs. They resemble what you call Science. They would be researched in your Schools, Libraries, Universities, Academies, Research Labs.
Every building would yield a certain amount of Theory points. If you have enough Theory points, you get an Academic technology. Note that this way Academic research is completely loose from your trade income. It doesn't make any difference if you're living in a Marxist-Communist country or in a Laissez-Faire Free Market.

The second way is the way that is used in all civ games. You set aside a certain percentage of your trade to science research. The other tech categories are researched this way.

The third way: tech leakage. I would put it as simple as this: for every trade arrow you get from a certain civ as a consequence of trading of goods, you also get a 'leakage point'. If you have gathered enough leakage points, you get a random tech you don't have and the other civ does.

The fourth way. You would get some techs for free after sole trigger is fulfilled. This because as some people already mentioned techs are discovered because there is need for them. Crop Rotation would never have been applied if there was enough food. There would never have been an Industrial Revolution if there was enough textile productional capacity. Etcetera.

[amjayee]

M@ni@c:

Yes, your division does make sense. And also it's true we shouldn't scrap something that is working. But also I think we shouldn't take the civ2 system, and then think how we could make most of it - that's too restricting. Since we are making the game from scratch, we can as well design a system that gives us more freedom.

Which brings my mind a non-technology related issue: I had some talk about one other programmer of the game, and we thought about starting the game development as a civ2-like game, with some kick-ass enhancements in the key areas. But we would build the game system so, that it allows us to build more advanced features gradually. So, we might want to think what are the most important enhancements we should make, but at the same time, we could keep on making ideas what the game should be like, so we can figure out, what the game system should be capable of doing.

But on to technology talk: I agree that we can use the division you proposed. But tell me, what do you think about the "skill level" ideas? The old "advancement" system, where you research a complete package of metallurgy, for example, is too simplified in my opinion.

Instead, it would be better if the "skill" in the area gradually increases as you do research. In real world, no one just found out the complete metallurgy information after some decades of serious commitment. Then there would be some breakthrough ideas, that change the wya of thinking, and work as the advancements in civ2.

Generally, we should not restrict our thinking too much just because in the existing games, some thing is done in a certain way. We don't need to use the same ideas as in other games - the technology system in civ2 for example. It was done that way simply because it is easy to create that kind of system. If we put some thought in it, we shouldn't have any trouble making the system proposed in earlier posts.

About technology leaking and stuff, this is an example of taking existing games as a starting point. We don't need to use the beakers and trade arrows. Certain amount of population produces a certain amount of scientific development, if they get certain level of funding for education, if they have certain amount of universities of certain quality, etc.... That development is then consumed according to the players emphasizing, and what the people do - if they build ships, the ship building skill increases, and their ships are better etc.

The science is not produced by buildings, but by the people. If they have good buildings for it, they will produce it more.

The leakage of technology is done simply by allowing the progress flow along the trade routes, roads, etc; you can't stop people movig about and spreading rumors. Eventually, they will reach other countries, and they will get advantage of your progress. Also all countries in contact with each other have some level of interaction, trade, etc., that also spreads new thoughts. But that traffic is two-way, remember - also you receive ideas from them.

All development should be made basically in the same way - but of course each "section" should have its unique behavior.

The idea about allowing certain technology when certain conditions have been met should be there. But is must not be that simple; if you are in situation x, you should be more likely to find the technology y, but in no conditions you should automatically get it. Also other way round; if those conditions have been met, that should not result in you being not able to find that tech in any circumstances. People are always looking for better solutions - if they don't absolutely have to find the new solutions, it might take longer. Propability is the key word - there should be some level of randomness also in all game areas. If you know, that by doinf x, you always get y, that's not strategy. It's simply following a pre-paved path. As I have been preaching in all threads, real strategy is finding the best path in the current situation. If things are random, you can't rely your strategy on one thing, you have to have backup plans etc., if that fails. My dream is to make that kind of game, but that isn't too tedious or difficult - also too much randomness is bad. You have to be able to know, that if you do this, it is generally a good direction, but if something unexpected happens, you would need to reconsider your course, etc... Am I writing too inspired messages?

[heardie]

^Bump^