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Old November 18, 2000, 01:36   #31
Diodorus Sicilus
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Just a couple of things... No, there has never been a nuclear-powered battleship, but there have been Fleet Carriers built with nuclear power that total over 80,000 tons displacement - larger than any WWII battleship ever built. Also, while most battleships ever built used high-speed turbines, the German Battle cruisers Scharnhorst and Gneisnau used diesel engines: at 26 - 28,000 tons they were actually in the Battleship size-range.
As for CtPII, I just got it today, have had time to read the book and peruse the chart and will, hopefully, have time to play it some this weekend. Here are my first impressions from the chart data:
1. The Tech Tree sucks like a starving leech. Among the Low Points: no development of steam power to enable the industrial revolution, railroads, battleships, et al. Fascism BEFORE Nationalism, which sounds like no one in Activision ever studied political history. Horse riding comes after Ballistics and ballistae towers - despite the fact that cavalry appeared before 1000 BC and the first catapults not until 350 BC! Cannon after muskets, Monarchy (one of the oldest forms of government!) after philosophy, Democracy after Fascism...why go on: it's a hopeless hodge-podge of half-baked semi-historical crap, as if they just needed something to hang terrain and city improvements and units on.
2. The units and strengths aren't much better. The archer has a better ranged factor than the Infantryman, which is the only gunpowder non-mounted troop you get until Machinegunners?! Aircraft still take years to fly to their target and back. Units of minor historical importance, like the 'Fire Trireme' (which should be the Byzantine Dromon, the Greek-fire-spouting warship) are included but the Legion, rifle-armed infantry and the chariot are not. Civ games have always concentrated ship types on the warships, but now the trireme is gone, replaced by the Coracle, which was never a warship, only a transport. The ironclad is slower than the ship of the line, and neither of these capital ships, nor the battleship, all carrying the heaviest artillery of their time, has a ranged factor!
3. The real interactions between governments, societies, Wonders, City Improvements and tech are bungled. How can a Wonder like the London Exchange act on Brokerages in a Communist state in which Brokerages shouldn't be operating at all? How can Aristotle's Lyceum affect Monarchies, Theocracies, Democracies, and Communist states all in exactly the same way, when some are inherently antithetical to science and some aren't?

Anyway, I'm disappointed. The only saving note so far is that I still have all the CtPI mods and the unit animations for Spearmen, Nobles, Horse Archers, etc made up by the very talented folks for the Downloads. If the slic2 is half as good as it's supposed to be (or even only as good as that in CtPI) I'll be able to modify the Tech, units, strength figures and government attributes to POSSIBLY get something resembling a semi-historical game, instead of the mish-mash of fantasy and froth I have now.
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Old November 18, 2000, 04:30   #32
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Originally posted by WesW on 11-17-2000 10:45 PM
Mark, have any of the Activisioners said whether or not they will be scanning the forums, especially this forum, in the coming weeks?
nothing specific, but i've been seeing Mr Ogre, Pyray and St Swithin answering several questions the last few days

what i'm sure of is that they are working on "extensive documentation"(quote) for the scenario editor and slic
 
Old November 18, 2000, 04:38   #33
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quote:

Originally posted by Diodorus Sicilus on 11-18-2000 12:36 AM
If the slic2 is half as good as it's supposed to be (or even only as good as that in CtPI) I'll be able to modify the Tech, units, strength figures and government attributes to POSSIBLY get something resembling a semi-historical game, instead of the mish-mash of fantasy and froth I have now.
excellent, i'll be looking forward to your mod

dont forget to re-balance the game after all the changes, ok?

 
Old November 18, 2000, 14:30   #34
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The most important thing is that the game is still fun after your changes, remember this. Im quite a history buff myself, but games should primarily be fun.
Since the game covers a large historical time outdated units really must have some chance against modern ones otherwise you will become invinceble when getting new techs.
But that is something that could be changed by us, adding more units inbetween or something like that...
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Old November 18, 2000, 19:15   #35
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Has anyone tried putting a Ctp1 sprite into Ctp2?
The Activisioners have said they should work, but I noticed that the battleview in Ctp2 is shown from a different angle, and I wonder if this will affect anything.

Diodorus Sicilus, if you wanted to use the Med mod's advances chart as a starting point for your ideas, I would be happy to work with you on this.
I don't have the game yet, to be able to look at the entire tech chart at one time, but it's obvious that it needs a lot of work, as do many of the unit abilities.

I have a copy of the original game's tech chart, as made by Morgoth's wife, if someone wants to take it and convert it to ctp2's layout.

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Old November 19, 2000, 02:04   #36
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Btw, the City Walls are set to increase defensive strength by 15. This is comparable to 1.5 in Ctp1. I haven't done any tests yet, but this would seem to make their effect negligible once you got out of the bronze age. What do the rest of you think?

I find myself planning on re-instituting the Stockade improvement, and placing the City Walls about where I did in the Med mod, somewhere in the Medieval period.
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Old November 19, 2000, 04:54   #37
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Wes, about Stockade. there are also the balista towers now
 
Old November 19, 2000, 20:55   #38
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Exactly how do the Ballista Towers affect the battle when a city is attacked? I admit that I am a little confused about how battles are resolved in ctp2.
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Old November 20, 2000, 00:02   #39
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Ballista towers give +20% attack vs land units.

BTW check out the list of gripes I've compiled in the suggestions forum, just in case Activision can't or won't do any of them. Perhaps you mod guys can.
[This message has been edited by Mad-Kat (edited November 19, 2000).]
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Old November 20, 2000, 08:08   #40
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I still don't have the game (now I am in UK) but I like it EXCEPT:
1) the tech tree: too small, wrong, almost pathetic; I mean, the governments' ages! Fascism and the republic in the renaissance! Thology after republic! Democracy after fascism! No classical age after the ancient one, no middle age, no industrial age... and why "genetic" age when it is clearly (at least for me) "information" age? And where is the wheel? Labour union? Steam engine? The radio? Basic rewriting and more fleshing needed...
2) ancient units: where are they??? I mean, give me at least some petty horsemen to roam around, or a legion (ok, I will not carry on the "legion issue"), or some chariot before the knight! I like mounted archers, but they are not the only ancient mounted unit... And "fire trireme" without "trireme"?

I would not like to have to mod the game... there is no manual or help for mod games... I would be happy if Activision would release a PATCH or a "MOD PACK" with these and other major issues in the forum, do you think that if we ALL ask this they will do it? I mean, all I would like is an OFFICIAL MODIFICATION with all the details and juices. Please tell me if you agree.

P.S.: I posted this question last week, but I do not fond anymore the thread... so here it is again:
what happens when a city control radius is cramped short by other cities'ones? Will the city need less workers to gather 100% of resources? For example, if 3 squares are cut off by another city radius, will I nedd three less workers to gain 100% of resources? And in this case what will happen of these workers? Will they be specialists? Will I be able to put them back to gather resources when the radius of the city will grow again? Sorry for posting the same question again, please answer or tell me where to find the reply. Thanks.
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Old November 20, 2000, 14:43   #41
phix
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quote:

Originally posted by Depp on 11-18-2000 01:30 PM
The most important thing is that the game is still fun after your changes, remember this. Im quite a history buff myself, but games should primarily be fun.
Since the game covers a large historical time outdated units really must have some chance against modern ones otherwise you will become invinceble when getting new techs.
But that is something that could be changed by us, adding more units inbetween or something like that...


Ahhhh but hasn't that been how history works? Knights became useless due to the range and power of gunpowder.

How about the polish army in the 1930's riding on horseback against Nazi tanks.

Stealth fighters over Iraq, not only stealthy, but flying above the range of Anti-Aircraft guns.

Rifles vs. Spears when the Europeans came to North America. (Indians did not have bows and arrows until the Europeans showed up)

Advanced Technology *should* be *A* deciding factor.

However... Throw in the ability to steal techs from defeated units. Gang up on an infantryman with a bunch of archers and *maybe* steal some sort of tech along the tree (not nec. gunpowder... but *something* along the way)

I AM happy though that the Civ and CTP games are getting closer to realistic attacks. I still remember the day when I played the first Civilization all those years ago, and I lost 5 Battleships attacking a town that had ONE... yes ONE Phalanx unit defending.

I do like how Alpha Centauri handles government types and the different effects some technologies have. Also, I like the "Active" status of defending aircraft and artillery. Scramble those fighters when a bomber approaches.

I do think that airpower needs a lot of work to make it more realistic. Bombers having 2 YEARS to make a round trip? Come ON! All aircraft should have to attack and land in the same turn. If that means doubling their move rate, so be it. Set them so they can't attack twice. That's fine with me. But a bomber having a 2-turn turnaround... That's just crazy.

Anyone know how many attack runs each bomber made during WWII?

Also. In a MODERN war setting. It should not take 10 turns to get to "the front"

The cargo helicopter is a start

All in all though, despite the wackiness of the tech tree. (I must say I didn't catch the inconsistencies until I got Facism, and then could research Nationalism... and Democracy came a few techs later.)

I'll be looking forward to a tech tree patch!

My current gripe... Piracy. I think you should be able to attack units engaging in piracy without *always* provoking war. Or at least be able to Expel a foreign unit if it's on your trade path. (in or out of your territory)
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Old November 21, 2000, 11:44   #42
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Has anybody thought of adding SLIC to make the forts come with a defensive unit automatically like the med mod had cities come with a defensive unit. That would let you have a defensive border next to another country. Much like the old forts of the English and the French in American during the French and Indian War.
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Old November 22, 2000, 01:13   #43
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Another thing that might be cool to limit the power of the tank is a movement limit with fuel supply. Nothing as small as the air units, but something like a 50 movement limit without going to a city for refuel of a supply depot improvement like an airbase. What do you all think? Stupid or okay?
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Old November 22, 2000, 02:39   #44
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Giving mechanized units a limited fuel supply would be a good addition to the game, but I don't think the AIs are set up to handle this. You could experiment with it and see, but I think that would be the problem.
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Old November 22, 2000, 04:46   #45
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The Ship of the Line should definately be able to bombard land units, but its bombarding strength should be decreased.
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Old November 22, 2000, 09:32   #46
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quote:

Originally posted by ElitePersian on 11-22-2000 03:46 AM
The Ship of the Line should definately be able to bombard land units, but its bombarding strength should be decreased.


Agree. Hopefully to be included in the -eventual- 1st patch...
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Old November 22, 2000, 15:49   #47
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I want to see a nice stat screen like the one in Civ II, showing birth, pollution, army income etc. That was a great feature and CTP II is sorely lacking in the nice touch department.

Also, bring back the old style messages. Hopefully something comparable can be done in SLIC.

A way to view the scores other than at the end of a game would be nice. I also miss the Civilization % from Civ II and the comparison to a world leader. That was cute.

In fact are there any negatives in the Civ score? I don't remember getting any.
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Old November 23, 2000, 00:57   #48
Diodorus Sicilus
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After playing a couple of games up to the beginning of Gunpowder, here are my tentative thoughts on changes:
Each age needs a combination of ground units as Defense, Attack, Ranged, Flanker, Special. Right now, the modern units actually seem to be the most messed up, although I haven't had a chance to play with them and confirm this. There is no defensive infantry, the Flanker (tanks) has a higher Range factor than Artillery (the Ranged unit) has, and the only non-special Attacking infantry are Machinegunners, who should be (historically) Defensive units. In the naval area, the Carrack has no attack factor at all, which is Unhistorical, to say the least, the Ship of the Line, Ironclad, and Battleship have no Bombard/Ranged factors, and for some inexplicable reason the Destroyer (according to the Reference Chart) has no Sub-spotting capability while the PT Boat has, and the miniscule PT boats cost almost as much as the Destroyer!
The City Walls are much less effective at keeping cities safe from anything, and there is no replacement for them until Forcefields become available in the (far) future. At least, the City Walls need to be upped in effect from +15 to about +25 (testing needed). This would have the effect of making the average defensive unit (Hoplites) almost twice as strong as the average attack (ancient) unit: Samurai or Knight. Without "city crackers" like Cannon or Catapults, attackers would need to outnumber the defense by at least 2:1 or more, which is closer to historical effects. Someone with considerable graphics expertese needs (more than I, anyway!) to add a Gunpowder-Renaissance era replacement for the City Wall, the Vauban or Italian Trace fortifications, which would double or triple the original effects (+40 or +50?) to make cities defensable into the modern era. Increased use of air power and modern artillery would make these Ramparts increasingly ineffective, until some futuristic Forcefield can be substituted.
The Sentinel command for units should be modified by someone with more programming knowledge than I (my last computer language studied was FORTRAN, so you can tell I'm waaaay out of my league with the modern stuff) so that aircraft fly to their target, attack, and return to base within the same turn - bombers taking up to 5 years to attack and return is beyond ridiculous. If Fighters on Sentinel could attack enemy aircraft coming within their 'Vision' automatically in that same turn, we could streamline the air unit combat realistically. By combining fighter/interceptor units on Sentinel orders with Radar Stations (+8 tile Vision) a player can simulate the extensive Air Defense networks like Britain's Fighter Command in the Battle of Britain or the USA's NORAD and USSR's PVO-straniy in the 1960s and 1970s.
In Summary, what I think we need in units is:
Chariot - first ancient Flanker unit
Legion - ancient Special dual-purpose unit
Longbowman - 2nd level Ranged ancient unit (medieval)
Rifleman - Industrial Age infantry unit
Rename the CtPII Cannon as a Bombard, which is what the graphic shows, and supplement it in the Industrial Age with a Cannon using the CtPI graphic, for a Ranged unit.
Make the Machinegunner's defense factor better than its attack factors, make it the Defense Modern unit, and add the Shock Troops (new graphic similar to the Marine or Fascist) as an infantry non-special Attack unit.
Refactor the Tank - no ranged factor, but possibly a higher attack factor.
Add an attack factor to the Carrack - they mounted guns and later evolved into the Frigate, although I don't think we need another naval unit between Carrack and Ship of the Line - no time.
Add Ranged factors to the Ship of the Line, Ironclad, and Battleship.
Give the Destroyer Sub-spotting capability.
If we have to have the PT Boat, make it a Special Unit, rather like a seagoing Cruise Missile: huge attack factor, but it self-destructs when it hits (good analogy for attacking Battleships with those things!)
Finally, redo the Tech Tree extensively, which is grist for an entire other thread...
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Old November 23, 2000, 10:29   #49
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Giving mechanized units a limit FOR the human player... wouldn't be a bad idea;

When a human player builds a mech unit, which when built has no fuel requirements, it would be replaced by a fuel restricted version.

The AI is not constrained by the rule, but you don't necessarily *NEED* to see this anyway.

If we have the same problem with planes crashing as we did in CtP1 we should use the same approach to a) give appropriately fueled AI aircraft or b) infinitely fueled aircraft (although b is probably unbalanced...)
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Old November 23, 2000, 18:19   #50
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I dont know if this would be possible in a "patch" but it would be REALLY nice to actually SEE a picture of the other nation's leader in the diplomacy screen, diplomacy just feels incomplete without that.
[This message has been edited by ElitePersian (edited November 24, 2000).]
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Old November 24, 2000, 04:01   #51
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Persian, check out my upcoming thread about the Med mod II.

Diodorus, the PT boat is a problem. I was told in the beta that it was going to be a Frigate. I didn't see this unit until the later beta I got.
I was thinking of giving this unit a large damage setting, with a low attack and defense setting. Would this simulate torpedo attacks, which were the main weapon PT-boats used against other ships? Their chances of hitting were small, but if they did, they caused a lot of damage.
I am also going to find another unit to be used as a Frigate, similar to that unit in the Med mod 4. This unit will have anti-air capabilities, with Destroyers being the sub-hunters.
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Old November 25, 2000, 06:40   #52
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About the fuel problem:

If possible, the AI shouldn't be affected. The engine cannot handle that (I think).

Human "units" should be refueled at cities or at airfields/fortifications (are the more installations in CTP2 than in CTP? Or can you "make" your own?).

For the human: When (I write when, cause it will happen) a tank or mech.inf. runs out of fuel, the units should still be "alive", seeing and defending.

Only way to get that unit moving again would then be either to build an installation or a city "below" the grounded unit - if you use a city, you are able to disband that when it has done the job - refueling the unit?!
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Old November 25, 2000, 08:23   #53
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Activision would be well advised to implement the changes Diodorus Sicilus proposed. They are well studied and would add a great deal of realism to the game.

Regards
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Old November 26, 2000, 01:28   #54
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Please, please please! reduce or eliminate infinite city sleaze (ICS) factor!

Small, efficient, advanced empires should have an edge over large, inefficient, backward ones. From my understanding, the game does not reflect this at all.



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