Introducing the Medieval Pack II

[hexagonian]

Wes,

I do not think this will be a problem, but am asking anyhow.

Will it be possible to load maps that have been recently been created in the default CTP2 game (minus the goods) into MedMod2?

The main reason is that I am hoping to be able to use the goods Nordicus implemented and the adjusted terrain settings that you created. If these different terrain settings cause game crashes, then I will probably be holding off on map creation until your mod is released.

[Matte979]

These two are in the const file.


CITY_HEAL_RATE 1.0
NORMAL_HEAL_RATE 0.1

[WesW]

Here is the bulk of an email I sent to Locutus, Gedrin, and some other interested people this evening. This was obviously before I read Wouter's post above. The mod just keeps looking better. The only thing that concerns me is the unit categories limitation I mentioned earlier.

I think that you both know that I want to use the militia and refugee triggers in the Med mod II. I also want to try out a partisan trigger in the mod as well. I want it to share characteristics of both of the aforementioned triggers.
I want the number of Partisans created to be based upon city size, like the refugee trigger. I think 1 Partisan per 6 pop would be about right. I also want the units created to be based upon the technology of the civ., like the militia trigger. To represent the fact that these Partisans would be less powerful than regular army troops, I want them to be the defensive unit of the age prior to the one the civ is currently in. This way, we will not have to create new units and/or sprites for this trigger. The trigger will only activate when the civ either has a certain tech, or is under certain govt.'s, I haven't decided on that yet. Also, the trigger will only activate if the conquest distress in the city is zero. This way, if you re-take a city you just lost, you will not have to fight your own citizens.

I would like for you two to work together on this, if possible, since you both have experience with different aspects of the components of the trigger. Darryl may have done some work on such a trigger already, so I am going to send a copy of this to him as well. I think he will be active in slic work on Ctp2 as well, so I might as well try and get you guys talking regularly. If anyone else wants to comment or get involved, well that's why I am sending you copies as well.

On another topic, Wouter, have you done any work on the trigger to make it cost production to heal units in cities? (The production would come from the public works stockpile.) Having spent the weekend playing the Alexander scenario, which is awesome btw, I really realize how this trigger would revolutionize warfare campaigns in the game. I think this trigger would be a bigger boost to the game than the militia trigger. I mean, this would really separate Ctp from the Sid games in an important way, a way as significant as the public works concept and stacked combat, imo. Right now, I think 75% of the original cost per percent seems about right. I am also going to increase the chance of becoming a veteran to about 30%. This would make Ctp a lot like the Panzer General series in this regard, an aspect of reality in which I think that game did an excellent job emulating.

Btw, Gedrin, did you see my post in the Med mod II thread where there are flags in the DiffDB designed to do what your disseminate trigger does?

Finally, I had a moment of inspiration myself today. (Either that, or I finally saw something that has been staring me in the face for a year now.) I have been wanting for some Improvements' upkeep cost to be based upon city size. Well, the necessary flag has been there all along; the Television's gold-per-citizen flag. I inserted that flag into the Improvements that I wanted- gold, science, production and food, and gave it a negative value (I eliminated the set upkeep cost for these improvements). This is another thing that is going to have a significant effect on the game, and make it much more realistic. (New York City's library system costs the same as that of a small town under the current system, but obviously gives a much greater benefit.) Since the value has to be an integer, I may have to increase the effect of gold improvements to compensate, but I think this new way of figuring costs is going to be a real improvement to the game.

[skorpion59]

Hex,

Yes, you can add any map to the Med Mod provided it only uses default (or Med Mod) items.

[Locutus]

Thanks Matte979 (though a little late since Wes already emailed me all the info I need ).

(BTW, for those who don't know it yet, I'm Wouter )

------------------
"The most likely way for the world to be destroyed, most experts agree, is by accident. That's where we come in; we're computer professionals. We cause accidents." - Nathaniel Borenstein

[Martock]

Wes, would it be difficult to incorporate the fusion tank from CTP into this game as an early version of the fusion tank. i really did like that sprite and though i like the new fusion tank sprites too, it'd be nice to have them both in there. maybe even adding the old war walker as the genetic ages SAM unit of choice. lastly, i'd like to see the old space marine unit brought back in as a heavier version of the hover infantry (which i like too). i don't know much about modifying the files to do this on my own so i'm hoping you might do just that.

thanks!

[wheathin]

Wes, couple of things:

1. Great idea with the negative values. By combining them with a static upkeep value (positive or negative) you can get an even greater range of maintenance costs. Example: power plants have a high fixed cost - the plant itself, and then a low per-user cost. SoO maybe a 50 gold fixed maint cost, plus 1 gold per citizen?

2. Negative values can be useful in other aspects of the game as well: negative science for slaves (I don't know if CtP2 uses a Pop.txt file like CtP did) to mimic the real-world effects of slavery. Negative food values for glacier/polar/tundra terrains might be a way to have those areas provide less fertile ground for coastal cities, offsetting the productivity of the ubiquitous beach tiles. (Weighted such that a city founded on or near a glacier tile would have to have beach or other productive terrain in 6, 7, or 8 surrounding tiles in order to grow? - I'm talkin' large penalties here...)

3. Have the militia units have increasing vision ranges. In CtP I adjusted the vision range of the Musketeer and later militia units to have 3 or 4 square vision ranges, effectively increasing the visibility radius around my cities as time progressed.

4. Finally, I would be worried about the effect of repair costs on the AI. If it is too high, the AI might end up bleeding production and not realize it. There would certainly be no way for the AI to decide *NOT* to repair a unit because it is running low on production. More than anything, this would necessitate large roduction bonuses for the AI.

5. Related: make sure units are only repaired to the current readiness setting for the unit.

[WesW]

Martock, you will be happy to know that I have replaced the Ctp2 Fusion Tank with the Ctp1 version. I am going to use the Ctp2 version as the Diamond age Mounted Artillery (Ranged) unit. I plan to use the Ctp1 Space Marines as the Diamond Age Marine unit, called Storm Marines.The Ctp1 War Walker will be in the mod as well.

Wheathin, there are settings in the files pretaining to AI public works and so-forth. I feel confident that we can get the AIs adjusted to handle the new trigger properly. This is going to be such a big change to the game, it will be worth whatever effort it takes to implement it. Seriously, if we get this going, it would be worthy of some press in the strategy gaming community, though that stuff doesn't happen with fan-created mods as far as I know. I mean, if this feature was part of the standard game, I think that Activision could, or should, have promoted it as one of the most significant innovations in the game.
With the game as it is now, once you get a tech advantage and start taking cities with your units barely surviving, you can wait one turn, and it's like you suffered no casualties at all. This is completely unrealistic, as we all know.
If you start having to choose between healing hurt units and building other things, or simply not having enough production to immediately heal your units after a large battle, it is going to cause major changes in how the game is played. Think about how this trigger would affect something like the Alexander scenario, or notice how it would affect you the next time you go into conquest mode.

I am in the middle of semester exams this week, so I will have to slow down on the mod for a few days. However, I am through with school next Tuesday, so I hope to really get things going then. I plan to keep tinkering with things, and throw out some polls and such on the forums, to try and get specific ideas on new terrain values and a couple of other things. If someone wanted to throw some things out on their own, that would be great too.

One thing: I wish someone would take some time to look at the diplomacy files which contain the AI replies, and see if they could be altered to fit the situation. Right now, all you get is "offer accepted" and "offer rejected". If someone could customize the messages to reflect why the AI decided as it did, it would address one of the main gripes people are having with the game.
I may start a thread about this on the general forum to see if it can be done, hoping to get one of the Actigrammers to respond. (If someone else wants to start the thread instead, be my guest.)

[Martock]

GREAT!!!! i'm really glad to hear that Wes. one thing though, can we leave in the hovering factor for the CTP2 fusion tanks...that way we don't have to seperate our forces for over shallow water invasions.

[TheBirdMan]

The fusion tanks and shallow waters: Hooverunits should be able to pass shallow waters (I think) - but if not - this can be altered easily in the txt files by the players if wanted.


About help for diplomatic strings:

For the ancient and up to the modern age, try ask St Jon, The Deleted (Sophix), Mobius, Lung and The True Demos(can remember rest of the name) to supply you with sentences/proposals for the text. Just to mention some. They are doing a lot of this stuff in their PBEM games. I simply enjoy reading their comments (and be part of their games).

[WesW]

Yes, I plan to leave the hovering ability in.
I have spent today thinking about units: unit names, abilities, wonder units and so-forth. What I have come up with is really exciting. Below I have pasted a version of the unit build list text which I am using to try and keep track of everything.
Notes: TD- Tom Davies' unit, HT- Harlan Thompson unit, Wonder unit- enabled by building a wonder, Advance unit- enabled by being the first to get an advance, wonder militia unit- second type of militia unit created in all your cities, Alexander & Mag. Samurai- unit is from one of those scenarios.
Special Abilities:
Mongol Horsemen will have both ranged attack and flanking attack.
Ctp1 War Walker will be an all-around offensive and anti-air unit.
AT-Artillery stands for All-Terrain Artillery, and uses the Ctp2 War Walker sprite. This unit will be able to move on any terrain, including Mountains and Undersea, as will Storm Marines. This way, you can have combined-arms assaults on undersea cities.
Hover Infantry will be able to cross shallow water.
I am still thinking up stuff, so feel free to make suggestions, though please write a short passage on why your idea is an improvement over the current setup.

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_DEFENSE {
Unit UNIT_SPEARMAN
Unit UNIT_PHALANX
Unit UNIT_LEGION (WONDER UNIT)
Unit UNIT_PIKEMEN
Unit UNIT_ARQUEBUSIER (TD, WONDER UNIT)
Unit UNIT_MUSKETEER (CTP1 UNIT)
Unit UNIT_INFANTRYMAN
Unit UNIT_MACHINE_GUNNER
Unit UNIT_PLASMATICA (CTP1 UNIT)
Unit UNIT_LEVIATHON
}

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_OFFENSE {
Unit UNIT_WARRIOR (CTP1 UNIT)
Unit UNIT_SWORDSMAN (TD)
Unit UNIT_HOPLITE (CTP1, WONDER UNIT)
Unit UNIT_HEAVY_SWORDSMAN (ALEXANDER PHALANX)
Unit UNIT_BERSERKER (TD HUSCARL, WONDER UNIT)
Unit UNIT_MAN_AT_ARMS (CTP2 WARRIOR)
Unit UNIT_SAMURAI (WONDER UNIT)
Unit UNIT_MUSKETEER (CTP1 UNIT)
Unit UNIT_INFANTRYMAN
Unit UNIT_FASCIST
Unit UNIT_HOVER_INFANTRY
}

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_RANGED {
Unit UNIT_SLINGER (TD)
Unit UNIT_ARCHER
Unit UNIT_LONGBOWMEN (ALEX, WONDER UNIT)
Unit UNIT_CATAPULT
Unit UNIT_BOMBARD (TD, WONDER MILITIA UNIT)
Unit UNIT_CULVERIN (CTP2 CANNON)
Unit UNIT_CANNON (CTP1 CANNON)
Unit UNIT_ARTILLERY (CTP1 ARTILLERY)
Unit UNIT_AT_ARTILLERY (CTP2 WAR WALKER)
}

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_MOUNTED_RANGED {
Unit UNIT_JAVELINEER (EB ZULU ARCHER)
Unit UNIT_MOUNTED_ARCHER
Unit UNIT_BANDIT_HORSEMEN (ALEX, WONDER UNIT)
Unit UNIT_HORSE ARCHER (HT)
Unit UNIT_SELF_PROP_GUN (CTP2 ARTILLERY)
Unit UNIT_FUSION_TANK (CTP2 UNIT, RE-NAMED "PLASMA CANNON")

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_MOUNTED_FLANKER {
Unit UNIT_ZULU_WARRIOR (EB, WONDER UNIT)
Unit UNIT_LIGHT_CAVALRY (TD JAVELIN CAV.)
Unit UNIT_ELEPHANT (ALEXANDER, WONDER UNIT)
Unit UNIT_HEAVY_CAVALRY (TD NOBLE CAV.)
Unit UNIT_KNIGHT
Unit UNIT_DRAGOON (CTP1 CAVALRY)
Unit UNIT_CAVALRY
Unit UNIT_TANK
Unit UNIT_WAR_WALKER (WONDER UNIT)
Unit UNIT_HOVERTANK (CTP1 FUSION TANK)

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_MARINE {
Unit UNIT_MARINE
Unit UNIT_STORM_MARINE (CTP1 SPACE MARINES)

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_PARATROOPER {
Unit UNIT_PARATROOPER
Unit UNIT_SWARM (CTP1 UNIT)

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_ANTI_AIR {
Unit UNIT_MOBILE_SAM

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_NAVAL_ATTACK {
Unit UNIT_TRIREME (CTP1 UNIT)
Unit UNIT_FIRE_TRIREME (WONDER UNIT)
Unit UNIT_CARRACK
Unit UNIT_PRIVATEER (HT GALLEON, WONDER UNIT)
Unit UNIT_SHIP_OF_THE_LINE
Unit UNIT_IRONCLAD
Unit UNIT_DESTROYER
Unit UNIT_BATTLESHIP
Unit UNIT_PLASMA_DESTROYER

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_NAVAL_DEFENSE {
Unit UNIT_LONGSHIP (ADVANCE UNIT)
Unit UNIT_MONITOR (TD IRONCLAD, ADVANCE UNIT)
Unit UNIT_PT_BOAT (ADVANCE UNIT)
Unit UNIT_FRIGATE (HT WWII PACK)
Unit UNIT_MISSILE_CRUISER (APOLYTON PACK)

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_SUBMARINES {
Unit UNIT_SUBMARINE
Unit UNIT_NUCLEAR_SUBMARINE
Unit UNIT_MOREY_STRIKER
Unit UNIT_KRAKEN
Unit UNIT_DREADNAUGHT

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_SEA_TRANSPORT {
Unit UNIT_CATAMARAN
Unit UNIT_COG (TD)
Unit UNIT_TROOP_SHIP
Unit UNIT_CRAWLER

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_AIR_TRANSPORT {
Unit UNIT_CARGO_HELICOPTER
Unit UNIT_AIRCRAFT_CARRIER
Unit UNIT_SPACE_PLANE

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_AIR_ATTACK {
Unit UNIT_DIVE_BOMBER (HT WWII STUKA)
Unit UNIT_ATTACK_HELICOPTER (APOLYTON PACK)

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_AIR_DEFENSE {
Unit UNIT_FIGHTER
Unit UNIT_INTERCEPTOR
Unit UNIT_STEALTH_FIGHTER

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_BOMBER {
Unit UNIT_BOMBER (HT WWII B17)
Unit UNIT_JET_BOMBER
Unit UNIT_STEALTH_BOMBER
[This message has been edited by WesW (edited December 06, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by WesW (edited December 08, 2000).]

[Diodorus Sicilus]

Wes, this is looking better and better! I've been concentrating on rebuilding the Tech Tree advances for Ancient-Renaissance eras, but these unit lists are very close to my own notes: Great minds, etc.
Just a few observations/questions...
What is your intended difference between Phalanx and Hoplite in characteristics or strengths? The Hoplite, or heavily-armored spearman, was the historical progression from the simple (shield only) spearman of the ancient Middle East, while the 'pike phalanx' of Alexander and his Successors was the progression from Hoplite. Trouble is, Hoplites originated in Lydia and spread to Greece and the pike phalanx became the 'standard' infantry for almost every civilized state around the Mediterranean except Rome. If you need a Wonder Unit, how about the Legion instead? Trigger it with a Tactics, Training, or similar Wonder or Feat, because the Legion's combination of long training (expensive), heavy armor, and combined arms was never copied successfully by non-Romans.
Instead of a Wonder trigger, how about triggering the Elephant unit by the Elephant 'trade good'? I've broached this idea before, 'way back in the CivIII suggestions over a year ago: now it looks like it can be included in a civ game! Make the Elephant a rare good (Type 2 or 3?) and Elephant unit is obtained only if you have the good in a city radius or as a Trade Good from another civ (Ptolemaic Egypt and Seleucid Syria both traded for war elephants from Africa and India). This should be combined with a specific Advance, such as Dometication or Riding: without a source of elephants you get normal cavalry, with the elephants you get either cavalry or War Elephants - which should also have a pretty high maintenance cost.
Rename the 'Fascist' as a Storm Trooper or some other 'non political' title, and fergawdsakedon't make it unique to any government, but the 'standard' Modern (automatic weapons) infantry attack unit.
The Bombard and the Culverin represent very similar artillery weapons, both in effect and historical time. How about the difference being that the Bombard has an effect only on City Walls, which it negates? This would echo the historical First Effect of large gunpowder artillery, which was to make all existing fortifications obsolete. The Culverin, by contrast, would represent the first 'battlefield' artillery, with a regular Ranged effect.

[Matte979]

One comment for your list.

I made some modifcations in the same direction.

One thing i did was make the musketter of CTP-1 a pre unit for the infantry unit.

And the Ctp-1 Cavalry a pre unit to Ctp-2 cavalry..

Looks nice. The old ctp-1 musketter unit looks older than the ctp-2 infantryman unit.

you put the ctp-1 cavalry after the ctp-2 cavalry.. Me thinks the ctp-1 cavalry looks older than the ctp-2 cavalry. Just a comment.

Great work with the others. Now we just add all these lists to the strategies? Can be decide how many of a certain unit or % atleast? Just to use the priority number seems abit to crude.

By the way increasing the time slices and the slider and the terrain affect changes the game to be alot better. Less money less food, cities alot more diffrent.

One comment about the terrain. I realised that you don't get enough bonus in production from Mountains and Hills. This cities don't seem to produce that much more than cities without hills/mountains. May i suggest my correction. I removed so you can't build mines on grassland and plains. Changed alot of things in the terrain file. Specieally where you can build things and made alot more diffrent bonuses for diffrent locations.

Thats what i love about this game if i don't like it i change it..

I made the base production for hills and mountains a little higher not much 5-10 generaly and removed commerce. Then the mines improvement i doubled. Now i get the feel that these cities are producing faster than those that don't have production.

/Mathias

[Martock]

out of curiousity, when creating these new mods is it possible to put in some of the older sound affects? i do miss hearing my spies saying "they nearly caught me now" and such...

just a thought...

[Harlan]

About the unit list.

How much are you planning to extend the current timeline? Cos I really hate having new unit types come and go before I can even build them and move them to some battle. With such an extended list, you should be careful about that. For that reason, I would suggest cutting it down. You seem to have added every unit you have a good graphic for, and some you don't have a good graphic for. I think less is more (though of course still more than what CTP2 comes with). For instance, why both an Ironclad and a Monitor, except that you can cos you have graphics for both?

Also, with so many units to pick from, I don't see why you should settle for anything less than fully animated units. This includes the units I've made: I'd rather you don't use them (except as a hole plug for a must have spot) since they aren't fully animated.

There is one unit I wish was on your list that isn't though: Chariot. Historically absolutely vital, but I guess not on your list simply cos there isn't a graphic that's even close to it. Could someone make one?

[lev]

quote: Originally posted by Martock on 12-07-2000 11:55 AM out of curiousity, when creating these new mods is it possible to put in some of the older sound affects? i do miss hearing my spies saying "they nearly caught me now" and such... just a thought...

Yes, those old .wav files are in the CtP1 gamedate/english/sound/sound.zfs - which can be decompressed. I miss some of the old sounds too; the CtP2 warrior sounds far too civilized.

[TheBirdMan]

Hey Wes.

Take a look at this tread: Increasing bombard range

Can this be used for something in your mod?

I hope so, at least if an "variant" for PBEM or Online games are made.

------------------
Woodstock was here!

[WesW]

Well, there is a lot to respond to today.

Lev, or anyone else, if you would decompress the sounds zfs and send me the sounds from the Ctp1 units I am using, I would really appreciate it. Here is a list, which includes a couple of additions to the list above:
Warrior, Trireme, Phalanx, Legion, Cannon, Cavalry, Musketeer, Artillery, Plasmatica, Space Marines, Hovertank, Swarm, and War Walker.

If you would also lift the lines from the sounds.txt needed to use the files, and put them together so that I can cut-n-paste them into the Ctp2 sounds.txt, that would save me some time as well.
I am going to have to start farming some of this stuff out, there is so much of it.

Rebel Rick showed me how to change the slider bar numbers that are seen in the game, so I have corrected them, and set the food settings back to their original settings in the const.txt.

I am of the opinion right now that we should adjust those settings (food per pop), and perhaps the number of tiles worked per population in the initial radius, to address the growth problems in the game, rather than trying to adjust all the terrain settings. I feel that the terrains are pretty well balanced in relation to one another right now, and that making a couple changes to pop hunger is better than re-working all the terrains.

I have updated the unit list to reflect some recent changes, and the Legion unit, which I had forgotten to include.

Diodorus and I continue to think alike, in that I had already decided to make the Hoplite a wonder unit, and the Phalanx the standard defensive unit of the iron age. The Legion will be a wonder unit as well, so that we can give these two units the balance of abilities and costs that they had historically.
I plan to make Hoplites unable to attack on mountains, though they can move across them, and fortify on them.

If the slic guys can make a unit dependent upon a good being located near a city, then I would be happy to have this setup for the War Elephant.
I had already planned to make the Fascist a Stormtrooper-type standard unit, unrestricted by government, just like I did for the Med mod I.
The Bombard is going to be a militia unit, which those of you familiar with the Med mod I will remember cannot move. I like to keep two units garrisoned in my cities in the earlier time periods, one defensive and one ranged, for martial law effects as well as defense, and this will give you such a setup.
The Ironclad is the standard capital ship of its day, while the Monitor is going to be a cheap, slow coastal defender like in the Med mod I and certain Civ II mods. It was actually more of a harbor and river defender, so I might decide to make it a type of coastal militia unit, like the Bombard. (See how cool the possibilities are? ) Same thing with the PT boat, except that they weren't slow.
The only WWII pack units I used were for what I considered huge holes in the unit lists. I am not sure whether the Galleon needs to be a transport or a slic warship, but it does need to be in there, imo.
Btw, if someone wants to take these units and animate them, get in touch with Harlan and see if he will give permission to do so. Any new units that someone wants to create themselves I would be interested in hearing about.
I am looking for Renaissance-era and 19th-century cavalry units, as well as a Diamond age successor to the Attack Helicopter. A Chariot would be great as well.

Right now I have 7 stages of unit progression, the same number as in the Med mod 4, where I thought that they worked out very well. Since Ctp2 has more turns than Ctp1, you should turn out to have plenty of time with each age.

I read the thread TheBirdMan referred to, and I think I will leave that to scenarios for right now. If it turns out to be a good feature, we can see about adding it to the mod for multiplay versions or what-not.

Diodorus, I am glad to hear that you have been working on making tech changes to the game. Once you get a good idea of what you want to do, please make a thread so that I can see.
Paul made a Word tech-tree chart which mimics the one which came with the game. If you, or anyone else, would like a copy email Paul or I and we will send you one. (My old website is dead, btw, so I am having to temporarily do without one.)

One sore point, as I have stated in earlier posts: I found out that the AI is apparently limited to five unit_build lists at any one time. This is going to put a major cramp on my style as it were. I am going to have to get together with some slic programmers and work out how to arrange unit_list activation to produce a balanced AI force.

Btw, if anyone reading this is into slic programming, and would like to work on the Med mod, please contact me. I am working with Locutus and Gedrin, but this mod is going to be so slic-dependent that I am going to need about all the help I can get.

If we can get all the slic stuff to work, this mod is going to have a really different flavor than the Med mod I. The standard units, as you can tell from the list above, are now pretty generic, ie there are few culture-specific ones left. However, there are going to be enough slic units to enable everyone to have some, and it is those who are going to make the game really fun and a unique experience each time you play it. I think players are going to develop strategies of combining units and playing styles similar to what you would find in AOK or other rts games.
Once I get the first beta out, which will not have the wonder-enabled units available, and we get things play-balanced, then I will release a detailed list of the special settings and abilities of the slic units. I think people are really going to be blown away once they see it all laid out before them at one time. There are enough flags and settings in the game now that you can really create some interesting units once you know that the standard units are provided for.

[skorpion59]

Wes,

I haven't done much with SLIC lately because I have too many other things in the fire. However, I do plan on picking it back up soon. What motiviated me was the Samuri scenario. In it, I can run 7 tiles away from the 'bad guys' but they still attack me. In essence, they have removed the '1 tile away only' for attacking. (They actually didn't but thats another story). Hopefully, I will be able to give you a hand.


After seeing your last post, I have to say the drool is running down my chin and into my lap. I think maybe you should forget about all those silly things like school, sleep, food, etc and get this baby done!!!!!

[Harlan]

Wes,

You didn't really answer my questions from my previous posting. First off, what percent longer will your mod be in turns than the regular CTP2 setup, and how does that compare with what percent of new units you'll have. I still worry about getting too many new units before I can really use them. Ways to automatically update old units to new (for a price or a Leonardo wonder or something) would help, certainly.

Second question. What do you think about my comment that "less is more" and one shouldn't simply add a new unit or wonder or other, just because the graphic is there? I'll again point to the Ironclad and Monitor as an example. As far as I know, there was no such thing as defensive and offensive Ironclads, there was just one type. The Monitor was but an early single boat, and as one of the first Ironclads ever built, largely without any offensive weapons. This was an oversight (based on a need to rush a weapon, any weapon to meet the Merrimack) that was soon rectified by all later Ironclads. I can see why for logical reasons its good to look for an offensive and defensive ship in each era, but the Monitor is not what you're looking for for that era, unless you want to fly in the face of history.

I would also call into question some of the other unit additions as being unnecessary, such as the Privateer, but if you could explain the wonders they'll be attached to, maybe they're look better. The Galleon I agree is an important unit, but I believe that is exactly what the Carrack is. They're nearly the same thing, but I'm sure the Activision guys named it Carrack simply so there would be one less unit they share with Civ2. For instance, I asked the lead designer why he wouldn't include Chariot, and the name was the reason: the legal team said they were skating on thin ice with having too many things the same as Civ2, and there was no other name to call Chariot.

Other ones I'd question: why a WW2 Frigate? Slinger? Horse Archer and Bandit Horseman (one or the other is fine)? Heavy Swordsman and Swordsman (again, one or the other)? The Zulus? These seem driven by a cos we have the graphics sentiment. Bombard, Culverin AND Cannon seems a bit iffy- 2 out of three is good, unless the mod will stretch time out a ton.

On the other hand, there are some holes that still need fixing. For instance, ICBM (I assume you forgot to mention Nukes), Seige Tower, Anti-Air Gun (pre-SAM).

On another note, what about a provision in your mod for reducing the PW cost of adding, say, a Mega Mine to where a Mine was, or a Railroad to where a Road was. For instance, pay 300 instead of 500 if the original cost 200.

I think it would be wonderful if someone made animations out of some of my units, but I also think it would be pretty near impossible, since they aren't based on 3D models.

[lozina]

I just wanted to bring up the flaw in fighters and other air units. How is it that when I attack a city with a fighter- it gets destroyed by infantrymen (supposedly muskets) and artillery and cavalry??? Is there a way you can make it so if you attack a city with a air unit and that city has no anti-air capabality then you can destroy a random unit in that city? Also- can there be a new option added to bombers where upon bombarding a city you can aim for a specific unit/building or maybe even a wonder? Just some thoughts...

[WesW]

quote: Originally posted by Harlan on 12-08-2000 11:24 PM Wes, You didn't really answer my questions from my previous posting. First off, what percent longer will your mod be in turns than the regular CTP2 setup, and how does that compare with what percent of new units you'll have. I still worry about getting too many new units before I can really use them. Ways to automatically update old units to new (for a price or a Leonardo wonder or something) would help, certainly.

At this point, I plan for the mod to use the standard Ctp2 timeline. If play-testing reveals that it needs to be adjusted, we can do that.
As far as units go, my aim is to give each unit a sufficiently long era of supremecy in its category to make it worth building. Ideally, you will be jeopardizing your safety if you don't upgrade your forces when I new unit comes along.
The land units are divided into 7 ages, each age with a unit from one of the unit build list, except for modern units like anti-air and marines.
The naval units are less precisely defined, but I am basing them on the Med mod 4 setup, which worked out well as far as spacing is concerned.
Air units are divided into WWII, Genetic and Diamond ages, roughly speaking.

quote: Originally posted by Harlan on 12-08-2000 11:24 PM Second question. What do you think about my comment that "less is more" and one shouldn't simply add a new unit or wonder or other, just because the graphic is there? I'll again point to the Ironclad and Monitor as an example. As far as I know, there was no such thing as defensive and offensive Ironclads, there was just one type. The Monitor was but an early single boat, and as one of the first Ironclads ever built, largely without any offensive weapons. This was an oversight (based on a need to rush a weapon, any weapon to meet the Merrimack) that was soon rectified by all later Ironclads. I can see why for logical reasons its good to look for an offensive and defensive ship in each era, but the Monitor is not what you're looking for for that era, unless you want to fly in the face of history.

From my understanding, the Ctp2 Ironclad is comparable to the successors of such ships as the CSS Alabama and the USS Kearsarge, who fought it out in the English Channel, and the forerunners to Armored Cruisers like the USS Maine.
Ships like the Monitor and Merrimac were specific to the US Civil War, but my understanding is that there were many Monitor-class ships built by the US Navy, and ships like the Merrimac played crucial roles in river warfare in the Civil War.
I plan to use the Monitor as a niche unit, available only to the first civ to research Steam Engines, for example. If less turns out to be better, then we can easily remove these units from the game.

quote: Originally posted by Harlan on 12-08-2000 11:24 PM I would also call into question some of the other unit additions as being unnecessary, such as the Privateer, but if you could explain the wonders they'll be attached to, maybe they're look better. The Galleon I agree is an important unit, but I believe that is exactly what the Carrack is. They're nearly the same thing, but I'm sure the Activision guys named it Carrack simply so there would be one less unit they share with Civ2. For instance, I asked the lead designer why he wouldn't include Chariot, and the name was the reason: the legal team said they were skating on thin ice with having too many things the same as Civ2, and there was no other name to call Chariot. Other ones I'd question: why a WW2 Frigate? Slinger? Horse Archer and Bandit Horseman (one or the other is fine)? Heavy Swordsman and Swordsman (again, one or the other)? The Zulus? These seem driven by a cos we have the graphics sentiment. Bombard, Culverin AND Cannon seems a bit iffy- 2 out of three is good, unless the mod will stretch time out a ton.

I envision the Carrack as a Colunbus-era ship, while the Galleon would be the next evolution, a 16th or 17th-century unit. There is only one Naval transport unit available after the Cog, the Transport, which comes about in the Industrial age. We may need another transport between the Cog, which I plan to use as an early Renaissance transport like Tom designed it, and the Transport, and move the Transport to the 20th century. Or, I can use the Galleon as a swift raider ala Francis Drake, available to one Civ to establish naval supremecy during the Renaissance era, and an able support craft to the SotL, when that unit comes along.
Frigates are going to be the first and only unit capable of defending against air units until the late 20st-century Missile Cruiser comes along. The Slinger is the Bronze age ranged unit, the Horse Archer a late-Medieval Ranged and Flanking unit, and a companion to the Knight, Bandit Horsemen will be Iron Age swift raiders with both Ranged and Flanking attacks, available to only one civ, Heavy Swordsmen are successors to Swordsmen (I spent about an hour combing websites trying to find a better name than Heavy Swordsman, but to no avail. Any suggestions are welcome.) The Zulu Warrior is another special unit, and will have mounted-unit mobility and flanking attack combined with infantries ability to move over any land terrian. They will be a bronze and iron age unit, and I may leave them active up to the Industrial age. As I said earlier, Bombards will be immobile defensive units created automatically, and not able to be put into the build queues of anybody, while Culverins and Cannon will occupy diffrent eras.

quote: Originally posted by Harlan on 12-08-2000 11:24 PM On the other hand, there are some holes that still need fixing. For instance, ICBM (I assume you forgot to mention Nukes), Seige Tower, Anti-Air Gun (pre-SAM). On another note, what about a provision in your mod for reducing the PW cost of adding, say, a Mega Mine to where a Mine was, or a Railroad to where a Road was. For instance, pay 300 instead of 500 if the original cost 200. I think it would be wonderful if someone made animations out of some of my units, but I also think it would be pretty near impossible, since they aren't based on 3D models.

I have not made any changes to nukes. I thought they were in the lists somewhere. I don't think there are flags present to portray siege engines accurately. If someone wants to try some slic stuff, be my guest. The anti-air artillery, which I had in the med mod I, I was going to wait and see how play-testing went. The anti-air category may have to be absorbed into another category anyway given the 5 build list restriction.

I will try and make another post dividing the standard units into their ages, and with wonder units in another list. Hopefully this will clear up some of the confusion.

As far as the Tile Improvements, I would love to be able to do that, but there is no setting for it at this time, unless you tried slic again.

[Pintello]

Hi Wes and Harlan,

Just to come to WesW's defense about the Monitor, the North built 60 something of those things just during the period of the Civil War. In fact, they were an entire official class of ships during the Civil War. I think the way Wes has broken up the early iron warships between coastal defenders and deep sea vessels is a good idea.

Wes, I like the way you are going to use one of your early "cannon" units as a strickly garrison type unit. If you can make the AI a lot more aggressive, that could be a very important developement. However, I don't think it is a good idea to use a ship as a garrison type unit. I think your plan to use the Monitor as a Shallow water defender/attacker is a better idea. If you want a garrison unit that is able to defend against sea units, just give the garrison cannon the ability to bombard ocean. I have already experimented with this and the AI definitely knows what to do with it. I think if you do give it the bombard ocean ability, you should also mitigate this by giving any naval vessels of this era the ability to counter bombard land though.

The reason the South's Merrimack type ships - they had more than one too, but not nearly as many as the North - were only used in bays and rivers was because the North had Monitor Class ships out is the coastal waters supporting operation "Anaconda." Anaconda was the name of the strategy the North used to blockade the entire Coast of the Confederecy. Later Monitor Class ships were able to handle the coastal ocean waters a lot better than the original Monitor could. Ericson, the guy who invented the Monitor, learned from his mistakes with the original Monitor and made lots of improvements on later models.

Regards,
Timothy Pintello
[This message has been edited by Pintello (edited December 09, 2000).]

[Alpha Wolf]

If I might jump in for a moment, I somewhat disagree with the upgrade ability. Human based units makes alot of sense. Just give them new weapons and some training and they are upgraded. But how would a ironclad realistically get upgraded to destroyer, or a cannon to artillery, since the artillery in CtP2 is actually self-propelled (speaking of which, how did they think sp artillery could happen BEFORE internal combustion?)

Not sure if you'd be interested, but I'm greatly modifying the terrain values. I too am sick of 20+ sized cities surrounded by snow, altho the one that got me was an AI city around 500bc that was already 21 and was completely surrounded by swamps except for 3 water tiles and 4 squares of river. Along with that, I'm modifying the cost and output of the terrain improvements. i have some play testing to do, but you are welcome to it once I get it to balance realistically. I'm hoping that slic can reduce time and cost to upgrade from one improvement to the next. Unfortunately, my slic is elementary at best so if you hear how to do it, I'd appreciate the knowledge.

[Matte979]

Some comments about the wage slider. If you change the wage slider to 12 as base and 4 in each direction it will seriously alter the game. The science will go much slower, there is a problem though seems 12 is a bit to high, human players can put wages at 4 but computer players put it at 8 and 12 which will damage there economy badly. I suggest you lower the base to 6 and have it got by steps of 2 to help computer players.

The happiness costs to much if the base i 12 and step is 4..

/Mathias

[lev]

Wes, I just sent you an email about the old CtP1 unit sounds.

Also, I agree with Harlan about the "less is more" -- variety of units must be balanced with game simplicity, and I urge you =not= to include units that are too similar in function unless they really add something to the game.

Overkill of units is the one big reservation I have about the mod, and I think you should weigh each choice carefully.

I =do= think it would be great to have an atom bomb available before guided weapons tech, with only two movement points, so that it would have to be bomber-delivered.

[lev]

Another couple ideas about Wonders (forgive me if these have already been mentioned, but I have trouble keeping up with all the posts!):

1. What if Wonder obsolescense was triggered not by an advance, but by the building of another wonder? For example, the Dutch East India trading co. could become obsolete when and if someone builds the London Exchange.

2. To fix the problem of "free-building" wonders and mayors building those anyway, change the wonder effect so that it actually places the building in the inventory of any existing or newly built city, on a one-time basis. If the building is destroyed, you don't get another free one in that city. This is the way SMAC handles such things, and it works well.

However, that would require changing some of the Feats of Wonder, since some of them are triggered by having a certain number of particular buildings, and you'd get a double bonus by building (for example) the Internet since you'd also gain the "lots of computer centers" feat. Actually, I'd recommend changing the Internet and the London Exchange to research and gold bonuses (respectively) rather than free buildings to fix this, instead of changing the Feats themselves.

[Harlan]

Wes,
Again, I feel you didn't really answer my comments about units, though you came closer. I generally know what things like Slingers or Frigates are, and what their role in the game would be roughly (though Bombards being immobile was a surprise). What I was hoping for in response was a spirited defense as to why such and such a unit is a must-have. Does it make the game more fun and/or is it a necessity historically? I would argue for the units I mentioned, no and no. I highly doubt that if you didn't have a graphic for, for instance, a Slinger, you'd be thinking, "Dang! If only I had a Slinger, then the Bronze Age would be looking really good." In that particular case, Archers go way back, to far before the start of CTP2's timeline. (Historically, Slingers were the poor man's archer, not the precursor)

Especially as you're not planning to extend the timeline any longer at current, I think the units you add need to be held to close scrutiny. 20 extra units is a gimme, but its easy to slip into 30 then 40 then more, as more sprites become available.

Another example. The Monitor again. Its true about 60 of those were built during the Civil War. Maybe 100 worldwide of vaguely Monitor-y type boats. But these had a very short history- from about 1861 to 1869, when the design of the Ironclad changed utterly. The Ironclad itself was a transitional unit, with only about 30 years of dominance, and the Monitor just an early transitional model of that. I could come up with dozens of units that have as much historical justification as that. I assume CTP2 turns would be moving at about 2 years a turn at this point, so you'd have about 4 turns to build and move into battle a Monitor before it was historically obsolete. It would be great for a Civil War scenario, though.

Galleon: the Santa Maria, sailed by Columbus, was a Galleon (though his two other ships weren't). This shows how short a historical life the domination of the Carrack was (about 50 years), though the two coexisted for a while longer.

I'm not sure what the point of Heavy Swordsman is, still. The Frigate didn't have any special anti-air capability until the SAM was invented. For the anti-air role it arose the same time as the Missile Cruiser, but is merely a cheaper, smaller version of that.

Then there's the Mounted Archer, Horse Archer and Bandit Horseman. I can't see what would be the need for three. The Horse Archer could play the role of Bandit Horseman: the Mongol Warrior type raiding at the fringes. One thing I recall reading when making the Alexander scenario: it is commonly believed by military historians that Alex's army could have taken on just about any army of the world until about 1500 since there was so little advancement in military technology and prowess until that time. The only advancement ever in archers on horses was the invention of the stirrup around 300 BC- one probably couldn't tell the difference between a Hun and a Mongol.

Its interesting that Bombard can't move or be built in the regular way, but I must have missed the discussion on that. Can you say again what that's for? Ditto for Zulus- you're keeping the associated wonders with some of this stuff a secret for now, I guess.

Sorry to be a pain, but you said you'd be glad to respond to challenges on what units to include or not include. Now I'm going to go and try to figure out how to get my graphics implemented into you mod, since I have lots of time today.

[graystone]

Theocracy to Fundamentalism - I've never been able to stay with one to get to the other!! They were too far apart in the CTPI mods... Be SURE there's a way to stay 'religious' with clerics etc.. all the way through the game if that's the choice someone will be making. Maybe Theocracy - Fundamentalism - Celestial Utopia? Theotopia?

[Harlan]

On AI Cheating. I hope in your mod you give the AI better compensation for not being as smart as a human, than the regular game does. I would like to see less initial cheating, and more long term cheating. The problem with CTP1 was if you could survive long enough, the game eventually became a cakewalk. Whereas the game should be the other way: not too hard to survive initially, but the longer the game goes on, the greater the challenges. The only way I know to boost long term cheating is with these lines:

RELATIVE_AI_PRODUCTION_CHEAT_COEF 1.0
RELATIVE_AI_SCIENCE_CHEAT_COEF 1.0

I don't know: does the AI cheat more if these are over 1, or less than 1?

I hope other methods are worked into the mod to make the game tougher as it goes on, esp. ways to have the AI players bounce back after they start losing. One idea mentioned above was having the building of new wonders make old wonders obsolete. Off the top of my head, this gives me the idea of having a catch up wonder: doesn't do much in and of itself, but it would make a bunch of useful wonders obsolete. So if you're behind, its a great thing to build to sock to the player who's built most of the wonders.