Self-handicaps

CrispyCritter · February 20, 2000, 12:34

This question is sparked by the thread about whether you expect to win every time. Certainly if you've played enough (too much?) you expect to win unless you've handicapped yourself somehow (in single player mode).

The OCC is a very nice example of a handicap set. My question is what other handicap sets do people use to make interesting single player games?

My current BloodLust handicap set is
One original settler is a scout only.
Not allowed to build any wonders.
No Fundamentalism.
I play small map, 7 civs, diety, barb hordes, MGE.

I can win almost all games like this, but most are challenging. I'm currently trying to add to the above set to come up with a Spaceship goal set but so far my handicaps have been too difficult for me (currently above plus
Can't conquer any wonders
Max number of cities is 20
And obviously allowed to build the single wonder of the Apollo program.)

So what sort of handicaps do people use?

Crispy Critter

Hawkman · February 20, 2000, 14:05

Delete all goody huts, they give the human too much of an advantage. Play at highest level, with barbarians going at full tilt.

CrispyCritter · February 20, 2000, 14:46

As far as Ming's suggestion of no offensive attacks, I forgot to mention as another handicap that I play my reputation has to be spotless. Do you mean more than this?

No diplo/spy sounds like it has some possibilities. That sounds awfully harsh though, in that they're my main defense against barbarians, and are needed in the midgame to take care of city walls. It distorts the game too much not to be able to knock down city walls. But a handicap of no bribing AI's (non-barbs) sounds playable and I'll add it to my list.

As far as goody huts go, I never investigate them until late early game (eg, after both Monarchy and Philosophy) in any case. I don't view them as being terribly important in my style of play.

Crispy Critter

Ming · February 20, 2000, 15:46

CrispyCritter... when I said no offensive attacks... I meant just that. You are never allowed to attack anything. Obviously it means you must get to AC first to win

After beating the game like that, then add the no diplo/spy rule... and you know what, it still isn't much of a challange

CrispyCritter · February 20, 2000, 18:37

Ming,
Thanks. For some reason I had grouped in my mind the "no wonders" with the "no attack", but you didn't mean both at once (I assume?). I would think it would be tough to do both; I seem to need 15-20 cities to have a chance at a 1-wonder spaceship, and that makes me enough of a target for the AI's so even if I could find
15 cities before the AI's got there I wouldn't survive without counter-attacking.

My OCC games tend to be close to no-attack games, and are also close to no diplo/spy. (I play MGE and the AI's are hostile enough so I try to have as little contact with them as possible.) I'll try it out, but I want to figure out a reasonable 1-wonder AC game first. Thanks!

Crispy Critter

Ming · February 21, 2000, 01:12

OCC... No wonders... No offensive attacks...
No diplos/spies...

Thank god for MP, because playing against the AI is no longer challanging or fun. Bring on an opponent that thinks, and then you have an interesting game again

Scouse Gits · February 21, 2000, 10:31

An interesting handicap, in a large world conquest game, is to set science to zero after researching a target tech.

For instance, say after Invention - you receive no other techs except by conquest. Stealing is NOT allowed and neither are caravans. (except food caravans for wonder building)
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SG (2)

rah · February 21, 2000, 11:35

I would think that if you have to wait for the AI to have all the techs for the spaceship before you can get them through conquest, they will launch and land before you everytime. This is based on their ability to steal the last tech from you and launch a fast ship on the next turn.
Unless you can arrange to take out multiple capitals each turn, I doubt you would be successful.

But please feel free to give it a try and report back your humiliation.

Of course we all thought occ would be impossible originally.

RAH

Has anyone completed and won an occ challenge with only building one wonder yet?

Tom DeMille · February 21, 2000, 12:19

Rah, I think I'll try a wonderless OCC game this week. There's a couple of comparison games from Paul's site I haven't tried yet.

What would be the best choice for single wonder? Copernicus or Appollo.

Seriously though, if you built Copernicus you'd get up the tech tree all the faster. Gift the AIs all your techs and hope one of them builds Appollo for you.

Maybe the true test would be no wonders at all. Well, I think I'll build Appollo this time.

Campo · February 21, 2000, 16:54

quote:

Originally posted by Ming on 02-20-2000 02:46 PM
...it still isn't much of a challange

As someone who can almost always beat King level but still hasn't won at Emperor, I'd sure like to watch one of you guys play. I feel like I understand all the important principles. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I wish I could stand over someone's shoulder and watch every move, to pinpoint the key factors.

DaveV · February 21, 2000, 17:17

quote:

Originally posted by Campo on 02-21-2000 03:54 PM
I wish I could stand over someone's shoulder and watch every move, to pinpoint the key factors.

You can come close to doing this by persuading someone to send you some save games. There have been several comparison game challenges where people saved every 20 turns. You could follow a player's progress by loading his save games in succession. If you'd like an interval more frequent than 20 turns, start a new comparison game - here's a thread for reference: http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/HTML/000373.html

February 21, 2000, 17:29

I'd like to check that out. I can beat Emporer and probably beat Diety. But I seriously doubt I could do those one city challenges. Diety is still quite a challenge. But it is easy now, that I got rid of some of my bad habits (but I still like to build up before I annihilate the AI)

geofelt · February 21, 2000, 23:39

Try to conquer the world without suffering any casualties.
I also tried to conquer the world without capturing any cities before I discovered howitzers. It's hard not to retaliate when sneak attacked.
See how long it takes to send a diplomat around the world on a 20x250 map. It takes longer than you might think.
try to build all the wonders.

CrispyCritter · February 21, 2000, 23:55

quote:

Originally posted by Scouse Gits on 02-21-2000 09:31 AM
An interesting handicap, in a large world conquest game, is to set science to zero after researching a target tech.

For instance, say after Invention - you receive no other techs except by conquest. Stealing is NOT allowed and neither are caravans. (except food caravans for wonder building)
--------
SG (2)

Nice idea! I assume you're also not allowed to trade for techs? Do you cut off science as soon as you build Invention, or do you allow building other techs that don't depend on Invention (eg, you could make Invention as late as the 41st tech you build).

This suggest variants like
"You're allowed to build 20 (or 30 or whatever) techs throughout the game."
The rest have to be gotten through the AIs, either just conquest (for a hard game) or any source.

For a conquest game, you'd probably get most techs early, but save some for later? Which advances do you want to get first?

A spaceship game would be interesting; you probably need some in the beginning to get going, but you need to save most for the end to quickly develop a science lead. Food for thought, thanks!

Crispy Critter

CrispyCritter · February 22, 2000, 00:16

quote:

Originally posted by geofelt on 02-21-2000 10:39 PM
Try to conquer the world without suffering any casualties.
I also tried to conquer the world without capturing any cities before I discovered howitzers. It's hard not to retaliate when sneak attacked.

Hmmm... I suspect you're not playing MGE. You can establish peace one turn and have them sneak attack a diplomat the next turn! There's no way to explore the world without casualties. And you learn to accept being sneak attacked. In my current game, I've been sneak attacked 4 times in the past 20 turns by the same AI. I re-establish peace as soon as I can and they attack one or two turns later.

The "not conquering cities before howitzers" sounds interesting. Probably depends a lot on the map size you play. Small map, 7 civs doesn't leave a lot of room... But if you can build wonders, 4-5 cities may be enough.

rah · February 22, 2000, 01:11

LOL
I was thinking Apollo but now that you mention it, it would be a lot tougher if you have to wait for the ai to build it

Good luck.

RAH

Scouse Gits · February 22, 2000, 05:45

CC - After your target tech has been acquired your science rate is set to 0%. There is no tech trading. Your only advances come from capturing/bribing cities.
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SG (2)

Sten Sture · February 22, 2000, 14:17

I have an unfinished game (v2.42) where I tried to do conquest/no dips with just one movement units like archers, muskets, paratroops, alpines etc. No cat/cannon/art/howie, or airplane/missle type units either. I did allow myself engineers for fortresses which was very helpful. Unescorted transports and cities without terrrain to attack from caused some problems. City walls were a pain in the arse, but like everything else in SP once you get momentum it is just a matter of time. I am dying to get back to MP to get my butt kicked...

It has been a while since I played that game, but it was the most fun conquest type game I have done.

CrispyCritter · February 23, 2000, 10:55

I tried the no offensive attack, no diplo/spy handicap set last night. I won my second game without too much trouble. The first game I had a couple of cities on clear terrain without any choke points keeping the enemy away. I had to spend way too many units rebuilding after massive catapult attacks!.

The second game I had 7 cities, most on rivers or hills. They became separated from each other as the AI's gradually infiltrated with their cities, but that happened after my trade routes were set up so it wasn't a problem. I was actually clearly second on the Powergraph from AD 1 on, but my science was overwhelming. I allowed myself to expel diplomats for a few turns following Apollo, but then decided that was probably not kosher under the handicaps and stopped. I'm afraid I did allow myself to capture barbarian chieftains, though. My fingers seemed to do it automatically on their own!

Overall, it was somewhat disappointing. Wonders are just too powerful. The 0-wonder and 1-Wonder-AC handicap games have been interesting games so I'll explore more options in that direction.

My Wife Hates CIV · February 24, 2000, 01:17

Try this for a different twist. At the end of your turn go to the advisor menu and click on casualty timeline (bottom of menu). Now click on end turn. The casualty menu stays on top and you can't see the battle field as the AI attacks/moves. Does this make things any harder?? Not sure, but I HATE it when this happens by mistake!

You can hear the battles and see the results if your unit dies (casualty timeline updates throughout the turn). It's fun when you do it every turn.
[This message has been edited by My Wife Hates CIV (edited February 24, 2000).]

klesh · February 24, 2000, 15:54

MWHC,
I hate it when it does that! It would be a good handicap.
Another one I do its not to rush-build woders via caravans. Also I ALWAYS try to prevent Manhattan project. This means you must dedicate certain cities to make task forces to either sabotage prod., or take the city. It always keeps you busy. I try to keep every alliance, but this is impossible because they change every 2 sec.
I also do not keep armies of spies. I'll use them when I need them, but If I know everything about the AI, it doesn't stand a chance.

CrispyCritter · February 26, 2000, 14:02

The 1-wonder spaceship handicap looks viable. I played two games this week and won (almost) both of them. [The first game I actually lost because I blundered into anarchy during the spaceship race; I replayed from a saved copy at the beginning of the spaceship race and won.]

My ground rules going in:
1. Apollo program is the only wonder you can have (first game the Celts built it for me!)
2. Maximum 15 cities.
3. Diplomats only used against barbarians.

I play small map, 7 civs, diety, barb raging hordes, MGE.

Both games I was way behind on techs in the mid game, but grew rapidly with WLTPD soon after Democracy. The first game I just barely caught up (got Fusion Power the turn before I sent the spaceship off), but the second game I probably took the lead by the time of Computers/Flight. I had 10 cities for the first game, and 11 in the second.

They were fun games, but there's not that variability in them, just proper development of cities. I'll probably play the conquest handicap sets mentioned earlier more. (I've been trying to avoid MP because of time constraints but ...)

George Garrett · March 6, 2000, 12:51

I sometimes handicap myself by assuming the characteristics and political history of the icon in charge, thus "King Rex" of England undertakes the conquest of the British Empire, only, up to 1950...all under "Monarchy",exclusively, once achieved; "Abe Lincoln" and his Americans grab for the almighty dollar under the handicap of "Democracy" and the desire to be loved by the rest of the world. His biggest handicap is to be overruled by either "House" the military and/or domestic adviser, by means of the auto
production feature.(in face of the danger of your city going down a barbaric drain, they're apt to suggest a sewer system!)
First thing "Noll Cromwell" has to do, is to display military smarts...next thing is to build a temple/cathedral in each new city built, or conquered...the two characteristics are not always compatible. If "Eisenhower" is up at bat, all has to be organized to the nth degree, ere any campaign launched; if "Monty"
comes to the crease, he must "hit 'em for six" and not sustain a casualty, in so doing.
For my next trick, I propose to try the "Ceasar" scenario, which means, I suppose, slash, crash and burn around the known world.
O, to get back to my own Machiavellian persona when playing Civ 2...:-)

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George Garrett · March 12, 2000, 12:31

This handicapping lark is doing Wonders for my game...got seven in my latest, seldom bother to go after one!

I also learned a lot as "King Arthur" (First thing this icon of chivalry had to do was off
Boedicea in The Tight Little Island!). Since
under the "code" of the Round Table I was allowed neither hydro for my domestics, nor heft for my military...if I was to live by the sword (plus catapult)up against all them atom bombs, and things, I'd have to stay out of trouble. This I did, first by the Wall, later, U.N. And a whole lot of Wonders in between, mostly paid for in jig-time by hitherto ignored caravans from 4 or 5 cities.

Instead of my usual expansionist style - I'm the kind of player who never met a square he didn't like to build a city on - I had to focuss on survival...this I did by consolidating the cities in the immediate U.K. Since, under the handicap my science options were limited, by the middle of the 19th Century I was able to set a 50/50 tax-lux rate, and solved my few problems- never seen so many happy citizens - by throwing money at them. Near game's end, I was colonizing 2 square tundra islets, into size 8 going concerns!
I was constantly beset by opted- for
raging barbs, and hostile Civs, but the latter went away cursing my Wall, and U.N. respectively, the former just...went away in puffs of smoke, yet - truly, how mighty is thy (Horseman)sword, Lord!

All in all, my best game ever (tho still mediocre mind, 740 points at Chieftan), when I scarce expected to make it into the Stone Age...a good learning experience, and tons of fun. I'm now gonna play Despot throughout(at Warlord level), so good not to have to listen to a committee! (So good, as well, to be able to go after Leo, once more)
[This message has been edited by George Garrett (edited March 12, 2000).]