Help with inadequate food supply

[Campo]

I've finally gotten to the point where I can win easily at King level, thanks to advice gleaned here. So now I'm into my first competitive Emperor game. (I had tried it a couple months ago and got clobbered.)

I'm holding my own so far. I have a dozen cities, all with marketplaces and not much else. I've built Colossus & Copernicus in my science city, and the Great Wall elsewhere. I lost out on the Pyramids and Marco Polo. I'm racing an AI civ to Michaelangelo's, and I've just started Leonardo's.

From what I can tell by contacts, I think I'm first or a close second in techs.

So here's my problem: food. The region I'm in has a good amount of specials for production and trade, but altogether too many hills and mountains. Most of my cities are producing either no surplus or only one surplus food. I only have two cities with more than that, and they're both supporting settlers.

My science city has a granary but no surplus food. It was my first city -- 4 specials, so I figured I'd use food caravans to grow it. I thought I'd develop other cities with enough surplus food, but it hasn't worked out. I'm hemmed in by four AI civs, so I can't keep expanding unless I go for conquest (which would be risky at this point because we're about even in military techs).

How do I grow my population at a decent rate? My only idea is to put a settler on a trireme and found a city on a different continent (with better food terrain), then expand there and start sending food caravans back to my "home" region. That would work, but it would be a very slow process.

Any other ideas? Thanks.

[My Wife Hates CIV]

Start clearing the trees! Or, start a city somewhere with good food production and start shipping those food caravans into the cities that need it.

[Scouse Gits]

MWHC has it - irrigate them there forests (unless they are on river squares) - it would help if you could give us a litle more detail of the terrain surrounding say your science city then we might be able to provide specific clues.
By the bye - hit Ctrl-t and talk to your Science Advisor - he will tell you whether "We are number one!" or merely "All is well, your Majesty" (you may need to put the CD in for this)
____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
[This message has been edited by Scouse Gits (edited March 07, 2000).]

[Campo]

Unfortunately my problem terrain is mostly hills, with some mountains and a little tundra. My science city, for example, has one whale and three other ocean squares, one grassland, two mountains, one tundra, and the rest hills. (The other specials are gold, coal, and iron.) There's an excess of hills everywhere in my territory.

I knew growth would be a problem, but I was counting on surplus food from other cities. Unfortunately the hills curtail my food surplus almost everywhere. I'd be okay if there were more forest.

I don't have explosives yet, so my settlers are limited in their transformation ability. By the time I get engineers I'll have lost a lot of growth time, plus I'll sacrifice population producing enough engineers to terraform on a large scale.

[Campo]

Oh, and as far as starting a "food city", I have no room to expand on my home continent. I'm hemmed in by ocean on two sides and AI civs everywhere else. All the good food terrain is already taken. That's why I'm thinking about heading for another continent to start a food city. From my limited exploration it looks like there are a couple possibilities, but it will be a slow process -- and in the meantime my growth is miniscule.

[My Wife Hates CIV]

Harbor improvement.

[Campo]

Yes, that will help the science city. I've been rushing so much to build the science wonders that I didn't do it yet.

Most of my other cities are inland though, so it won't help them. I've never had a map in which there were so many good specials positioned around such poor food-producing terrain. I've already irrigated what few grassland and river squares there are, plus the one wheat I've got. That's where my settler support comes from.

I really need more roads so I hate to disband my two settlers.

[inca911]

quote: Originally posted by Campo on 03-07-2000 10:35 AM Oh, and as far as starting a "food city", I have no room to expand on my home continent. I'm hemmed in by ocean on two sides and AI civs everywhere else. All the good food terrain is already taken. That's why I'm thinking about heading for another continent to start a food city. From my limited exploration it looks like there are a couple possibilities, but it will be a slow process -- and in the meantime my growth is miniscule.

If you've got AI civs next to you with food, and you are low on food then there is an easy solution to your problem--war! Build several diplomats and sabotage a food rich city until you get the city walls to fall. Then take it over with your troops. Better yet, buy the city outright if you can. Don't hesitate to go to war when it suits your needs--especially on the higher difficulty levels when you are unable to expand.

[inca911]

By the way, you mentioned that you had a granary in at least one of your cities. I prefer to use WLT*D (We love the leader day) to boost population instead of using granaries. You likely have Republic already, so don't bother with the granaries unless you want to use the food caravan cheat to grow your science city unnaturally large.

[Smash]

irrigated hills give 2 food.Double irrigated gives 3 food.So maybe go for Refrigeration and supermarkets.You'll want engineers(Explosives).Engineers can also terraform but unless you have a ton of engineers it takes too long, but, hills becomes plains.Also plains can be changed to grasslands.

If you get Mich's,temples and markets you should be able celebrate(Rep or Demo) up to 12 in most cities(food allowing) without major luxuries.20-40% should do it and 10 or 20% after "we love days" to maintain order.


When I'm going for conquest or MP I also use food caravans under Commie for growth in certain cities but I notice a "food route" takes the spot of a "trade route" so I limit it until sufficient military techs are developed.
That reason is why (IMHO) food caravan growth is not a cheat.It takes alot of resources and has detrimental effect on trade.
[This message has been edited by Smash (edited March 07, 2000).]

[Campo]

I built the granary only in the science city, because I wanted to get faster growth early on before I could get the "love" days. It was obvious from the beginning that it wasn't a good food-producing site, but I couldn't resist an early start on four specials.

Should I direct my tech research to explosives so I can get engineers? I've been researching my usual tech path so I can pursue my key wonders (Copernicus, Michaelangelo, Leonardo, Bach, Adam Smith), plus Gunpowder, of course. I usually follow those paths and get Explosives as a later by-product. I could make it a priority, though I'm afraid that might cost me Bach or Smith, depending on what the AI's do. Is it worth the risk?

[Smash]

get your usual wonders and have a bunch of settlers ready for the Leo's upgrade.

You can survive without Adam Smith's or Bach's(with Mich's,temples and markets) for now.It does take awhile to make farmland and supermarkets so the sooner Refrigeration the better.I don't know how far along you are but you may have to build sewers if you haven't allready.Alot of work.If you miss Bachs,banks and stock exchanges help to keep luxury rates lower.Also trade routes add more arrows to cities.

[Campo]

Not ready for sewers yet -- my biggest city is size 7, and the average is probably 4.

Couldn't play last night; I hope to pick it up tonight.

[Smash]

and you got food problems allready?Must be some rugged terrain.Maybe a new colony is in order.I thought maybe you were at size 10-12 and struggling to get food for maybe size 15-20

[Campo]

The NON engineer trick -- you disband the city by producing that engineer, right?

My situation has improved. First I made a few diplomats and did some investigating. I found an AI city in a great food-producing site and bribed it. That gave me a city with a surplus of 4 food. So I produced two settlers and put one of them to work making terrain improvements on the few decent squares I had. Every little bit helped.

I sent the other settler to a fairly close island to found a city that had both a fish and grain special, plus a few grassland squares. So then I had TWO good food cities. I used them to support a couple more settlers for terrain improvement, and a couple to found two more distant cities with good food.

I also stopped building caravans long enough to put harbors wherever seemed useful.

I've got one food caravan to my science city already and another one soon.

I did finish Mike's and (right at the end of the session) Leo's.

I'm in decent shape overall. My current problems are:

Adding all the new cities has made me the biggest civ, so the others are forming alliances to contain my aggresion. (Not that I've been aggresive -- I've been too busy trying to feed myself.)

I've been focusing so much on solving the food problem that I've neglected some other areas. I've got to catch up on a few city improvements and finish road building. And I'm almost completely lacking offensive military units.

Other civs are probably going to beat me to Magellan's and Darwin's, and maybe JS Bach's. The first two aren't essential, but I do like those extra sea movements. On King level I always get Bach's so I'm not sure how I'll do without it. I haven't given up hope yet though.

I think I'm ahead in the race to Adam Smith's, which is the only one I have the tech's to build right now.

Sorry to be so long-winded. I'm just excited that I have a chance to win at Emperor. There's a ways to go yet.

[Sieve Too]

Yes, building the Engineer will disband the city.

Forgot to mention that you don't have to wait for Engineers to start this. You can do the same thing with Settlers. Just make sure you get Leo so that your NON Settlers will turn into NON Engineers.

[Sieve Too]

You need Engineers for terrain improvement ASAP. It may be better to pass on JSB (your cities are going to be small for quite some time so you shouldn't need it) and concentrate on Leo's Shop for the upgrade.

If the terrain is really that bad, you should go for the NON Engineer trick: Build an Engineer and march it into the hills such that it is closer to an AI city than to any of yours. Build city. Start Building an Engineer. Wait a turn. Buy the Engineer. It will be NON supported, costing you no food. Repeat. This trick works best in rough terrain since it prevents an unseen AI Horseman or Diplomat from marching into your empty city. An Explorer could theoretically take your city but the AI typically uses Explorers for exploration, not for patrolling.

Unfortunately, building Engineers costs you a citizen each time but after you have enough irrigated, roaded grassland you can make it up quickly with WLT_D.

[inca911]

I'm glad you were able to bribe/conquer a good food city from the AI. That should open things up a bit.

Be sure you have your 3 good trade routes for your Science City or you are short-changing the potential of the city. Remember that the caravans give gold bonus and an equivalent amount of science beakers when they establish a trade route. Some people on this board use caravans exclusively to get science advances and an advance per every one or two turns is not uncommon even with the science rate set to zero (especially after superhighways, Democracy, and airports).

Also, if your situation looks like you may be conquering many size 8-12 cities to add to your 14 or so cities you already have, I'd rush to get Bach's over Adam Smith's (start Adam Smith's and swap wonder production once you have Theology). Trade/Steal tech to get Theology if you have to, but you have Mike's so all you need is Feudalism which should be easy to trade for. Gold really shouldn't be an issue at this stage of the game, and the extra population you can support with Bach's will outweigh the support of your 1 gold cost city improvements. I think of it this way. Bach's will allow you to grow two more citizens in each city. Most cities will have two one gold maintenance cost improvements: Temple and Marketplace. So you are saving 2 gold in that city by having Adam Smiths. If you just turned one of your extra Bach citizens into a taxpayer (so he's generating 3 gold), then you are already exceeding what you can get from Adam Smiths. With lots of trade routes and gold bonuses via caravans, Adam Smith's is really a luxury wonder and should never take a back seat to getting Bach's.

Keep us updated! It's fun to hear how your game is progressing!

[Campo]

I do have 3 trade routes in my science city, but they aren't good enough. They're all with my own civ (I established them before contact). I have to make better ones with more distant AI cities now that I know where they are.

That's a good suggestion about Bach's. I do like Adam Smith, but happy problems can be awfully troublesome. I will indeed be setting off on a conquering spree shortly after I get gunpowder.

I couldn't play last night because of family obligations, but I'm itching to get at it tonight. I'll finish either tonight or Saturday and report back on Monday.

If I lose I'll probably start a new Emperor game right away. Now that I feel I have a chance for victory at that level I want to make it happen.

[NeilFaiman]

quote: Originally posted by Campo on 03-10-2000 02:21 PM I do have 3 trade routes in my science city, but they aren't good enough. They're all with my own civ (I established them before contact). I have to make better ones with more distant AI cities now that I know where they are.

Once you've established a "bad" trade route from a city, how can you get rid of it so that you can establish a better one?

[Sieve Too]

NeilFaiman: To get rid of a "bad" route, just establish a new one. Although the game occasionally goofs, it usually gets rid of your worst route if the new one would be better.

Campo: Re Adam Smith vs. JSB: Both are excellent, however I am guessing that you ARE having gold problems and since your biggest city is (or was) size 7, you just don't need JSB right now. On the other hand, Adam Smith will allow you to increase your science rate immediately so that you can get Engineers sooner.

One other point: Theology is one of the lowest priority techs for the AI so even if you pass by JSB at this moment, you may still be the only contender for it later on. That isn't true for Adam Smith, which the AI avidly strives for.

All IMHO of course. YMMV.

[NeilFaiman]

quote: Originally posted by Sieve Too on 03-10-2000 04:13 PM NeilFaiman: To get rid of a "bad" route, just establish a new one. Although the game occasionally goofs, it usually gets rid of your worst route if the new one would be better.

That's funny. When I have a city that already has trade routes, and I build a caravan, I get a dialog box asking me what I want the caravan to carry; but the options don't include any commodities that I already have trade routes. If I already have three trade routes, then the only option I get is a food caravan.

Could this be a Mac-vs-PC difference?

[Smash]

Eventually "new" commodities will become available.If you can't wait that long then resupport caravans from crappy cities from the good ones and/or super science city.

[Carolus Rex]

Fun to read about how the game is progressing.

Just wondering about the NONE engineer/settler: is it not better to use already existing settlers first than to build new ones? Food is instantly "freed up" in the city previously supporting it and you get your NONE settler faster.

Carolus

[poppawoppa]

Regarding building Adam Smith or JSB, and having only the techs needed to get Adam S.
I have often begun building a (future) Wonder by starting on the wonder now available. Then even after I finish that wonder in one city, I allow the other city to continue to build the SAME wonder, piling up the shields until I discover the tech needed to open up the building of the wonder I couldn't build earlier. That way as soon as the tech is there, I quickly can switch to the newly available wonder, and it is done in a few more turns, or I have enough money to rush build it. This strategy is used by many, I think, and I seem to find it works best if the wonder i can build is for less shields than the one I am waiting to build. Like if I start on King Richards Crusade, 300 shields and then when I get invention, and can do Leonardo's Workshop, I have sometimes had over 300 shields ready to transfer into production of the Workshop (400 shields).
Good Luck.

[Campo]

quote: Originally posted by NeilFaiman on 03-10-2000 04:52 PM That's funny. When I have a city that already has trade routes, and I build a caravan, I get a dialog box asking me what I want the caravan to carry; but the options don't include any commodities that I already have trade routes. If I already have three trade routes, then the only option I get is a food caravan. Could this be a Mac-vs-PC difference?

You can initiate the new trade route in a different city. In my case I built up a city on an island and hauled a caravan from there to my science city. The new trade route replaced an early one created between my science city and one close by. The greater distance/different continent resulted in a higher trade value.

[Campo]

There's good news and bad news on my game progress. I'll split them into two posts so it won't be one really long one.

First, the bad news: I made a strategic error that I think would have cost me the game. There were five AI civs. The strongest and most distant was the Aztecs. They beat me to Magellan's and SOL. (I did get both Adam's and Bach's.) They were a little behind me in techs. Then their diplomats stole two techs from my cities, so I declared war. I decided to go after their capitol, to cut out their heart and capture SOL. I switched to military production, built an army of 10 cannons, 4 riflemen, and 4 cavalry. I built the riflemen first and sent them ahead to block reinforcements. The rest of the army followed, along with two settlers to built a fort and two diplomats to investigate. All had to be transported by caravel, because the Babylonians were between me and the Aztec's.

I built the fort and got everyone in place, then sent a diplomat to investigate the defenses. I had expected city walls and 3-5 musketeers. Instead there were 8 musketeers behind city walls, on a river. I didn't like the odds so built 4 more cannons and sent them off. The the Aztecs got Ironclads and sunk all my caravels, with cannons aboard.

It was a battle I didn't think I could win. By now I had sacrified science progress for military. My army was stranded on foreign shores with no hope of quick reinforcement and little chance of victory. And I was annoyed with the Aztecs and myself.

I launched a suicidal attack. It failed. My entire army was destroyed and the Aztec capital barely dented. My civ was in shambles. I was depressed. I gave up. That's the bad news.

[Campo]

Now for the good, or at least better, news.
Although I lost (or think I would have lost) that game, I felt that I could have won it if I hadn't launched the misguided invasion. So I went back to a saved game from earlier on. I didn't have one from right before the invasion, so I had to go back a ways.

I proceeded as I had before, up to the point where I went militaristic. I got Adam's and Bach's again, plus for some reason the Aztecs were later starting SOL, so I got that too. I stayed focused on science progress and expansion longer than in my first attempt.

Eventually, of course, as I got more advanced and larger the other civs allied against me and all declared war. Instead of repeating my misguided attempt to capture the remote Aztec capital, I followed a two-pronged strategy. First, I attacked the Persians, the strongest nearby civ. Second, with the money I built up from Adam Smith's and a later military venture, I sent diplomats and later spies to bribe Aztec cities.

Both approaches worked but were slow. All civs were attacking my border cities so I had to tend to defense. The Persians were strongly entrenched, so I had to besiege their capital by occupying city squares. Eventually it got small enough to capture. I bribed a few Aztec cities, but it was expensive as they were large and close to the capital, so it was costing 1000+ gold each.

So now I'm winning this game. (I realize that I really lost it initially, but I'm winning the replay. I didn't take advantage of map knowledge, so my biggest "cheat" was that I knew the Aztec capital was too well defended to capture.)

Here's the current status:

Year: 1922
Me (English):
25 cities - average size about 8.
Science city - Pop 13, prod 17, sci 176
(Since I've been fighting I haven't been able to go democratic to grow it with "love" days.)
Government - Communism
Wonders: Mike's, Leo's (still active), Bach's, SOL, Adam Smith, science, Women's Suff, and working on UN (racing Aztecs to keep it from them).
Researching Tactics.

Aztecs:
3 cities
1144 gold
Can't recall gov't - they just changed)
Researching Corp.
Babylonians:
2 cities, both size 8
Democracy
1055 gold
Researching Leadership
Persians:
4 cities
Democracy
1393 gold
Researching Corp
No capital
French:
4 cities, sizes 6 - 12
No other info -- I don't have embassy. They're behind the Persians.
Russians:
1 city. My only current peace agreement.

So where do I go from here? Obviously I'm far and away the great power, both militarily and scientifically. It's getting late though -- less than 100 years to go.

Do I pull back my offensive and focus on defense and spaceship? Should I stay on the attack and go for conquest? Now that I have espionage, I can build an army of spies to tear down city walls; that would greatly speed up my so-far slow conquests. I can't do much bribing because they're mostly in Democracy.

I'm open to suggestion, both for the general approach and any specific recommendations.

[Campo]

quote: <font size=1>Originally posted by Huey on 03-13-2000 12:09 PM</font> ...try to take out an AI in one turn, if possible. IMO you should have done that the moment you decided to take on the Aztecs...

But how? I didn't have Espionage, so I couldn't direct my diplos to go after city walls. My experience is that, behind walls and on a river, it could take 4-8 cannon to wipe out each musketeer defender. With 8 defenders that would have been 50 cannons for just one AI city.

Take away the walls and it's a different story. How that would take a lot of diplos.

BTW, what's the advantage of doing it in one turn? I realize my many-turns technique is way too slow, but is there any advantage in doing it in one turn as opposed to, say, three?
[This message has been edited by Campo (edited March 13, 2000).]

[Smash]

what do I do next?Are you kidding?Based on those numbers you are kicking butt.Do whatever you want.

One thing different about emp. or deity compared to other levels is the ai will bribe cities.You can capture a city after much effort,leave 1 little path open and here comes a dip thats buys the city and whatever part of your army that was in the city.So taking them out in one turn prevents this.

these ai civs are puny.I would have hit the Aztecs with at least 5 boatloads of my highest quality veteran attackers(4 legged variety).With more cannon and pre worked settlers for that stubborn walled city following shortly.I probably would have broken off to go after support cities when I saw how heavily the capitol was defended.Then consolidate,reinforce and the make a push on the capitol.And,yes,its takes time but a division of diplomats can make conquest much easier after gunpowder and walls.Vet muskets behind walls can take a beating.Wasting 6 dips to get the walls is better than losing 6 cannons trying to take it by sheer force.One good thing is you have learned the value of escort vessels

You are the biggest dog in the fight.Use your BITE.Use your financial might to rush an VETERAN army.20,30,40,50+ units after Tactics.The more the merrier.Chain your ships to move troops to the front fast.After Tactics you will have cavalry which fare much better against muskets.Expect to use at least 3 attackers for every defender.Then maybe a ton of cannons and Machine tools=Artillery

Or crank up the science and caravans and head for AC.A 4 city ai civ should not be a threat to build a spaceship faster than a 25 city human civ.

Next time for war you may want Sun Tzu's with Leos.The most annoying part of Leo's is losing vet status.At least the Academy makes it much easier to regain that status and captured cities can immediately start producing more "cutting edge" troops.Then build a bunch of horseman before going Chivalry>Leadership>Tactics.

Its a good idea to make up your mind which way you will try to win early.Then you can persue specific technologies and wonders.