This ain't Tomb Raider!

December 31, 1969, 20:00

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December 31, 1969, 20:00

1

December 31, 1969, 20:00

1

December 31, 1969, 20:00

1

Dale · January 10, 2001, 21:59

Folks,

Just so you know, even though I've been saying I can't be bothered fixing the AI, I'm looking into the one section as I see as needs work. Diplomacy, and it's prioritys. So last night I ran some experiments.

1 - I changed the prioritys on sending and receiving certain diplomatic events (namely pacts and alliances).
2 - I set the regard bonus amount for each turn at peace/pact/alliance a little higher.
3 - I changed a couple of the response priorities as well.
4 - I fiddled with roads to make them more 'attractive' bonus wise for the AI, and added roads to the lists of improvements to build for all categories (growth, production, etc).
5 - As an expansion on diplomacy-war, I made the ATTACK and SIEGE goals almost irrisitable to the AI.

Here's what happened. Remembering that at this point I'm working on extreme conditions and will narrow down to something balanced.

Setup a mid-size planet with 8 civs on impossible. I cheated and gave each civ advance: cannons (and everything below it added in auto), 10000 PW and 20000 gold. I also gave each civ 4 settlers. Basically, I wanted it to be a bit further on than a beginning game. Myself as a player did nothing but build defense units (keeping 6 in my city at all times, disbanding excess). I didn't improve or anything. I quickly ran through 50 turns. Turning off FOW I saw:

1 - The AI had spread all round the globe.
2 - The AI had built roads EVERYWHERE! It had gone nuts with them. I even saw a roman city in the centre of 6 cities with double roads to each city. Even roads going to nowhere.
3 - Units flowed down these roads comfortably. There was no congestion of stacks, no blockages or whatever. Just stacks moving comfortable to where they were going without hindrance.

I took a look at the diplomacy of every civ. 3 civs were fighting an all-in war (with stacks of cannon/riflemen on the borders). But the interesting thing was that these three civs had built roads to this triple-border area and had connected. Therefore, battles were occuring between AI stacks. 2 civs had research pacts with each other, one of them having a normal pact with civ number 8 as well. Civ number 7 was on an island all by itself, and only had a couple of contacts, but couldn't do anything as it hadn't got diplos to them yet. I kept the turns rolling. I noticed:

1 - The AI would declare war, fight an intesive battle with someone, then after a while when one sues for peace the war ends. The wars were short and bloody. I saw one civ send three stacks of 6-8 units at another civ at the one time. When peace reigned between two civs, the regard went up quickly till the next war (or sometimes turned into a pact).
2 - During peace, the AI built roads like nuts for infrustructure. During war, it built roads near the frontier (reminding myself to add forts to the improve lists as well) thus making unit movement good.
3 - The diplomats of the AI civs actually interacted. Admittedly it was usually an extreme (refuse a pact and they declared war) but it was something.

Maybe there is life in there afterall. Will go back to moding tonight.

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Rommell to a sub-commander outside Tobruk: "Those Australians are in there somewhere. But where? Let's advance and wait till they shoot, then shoot back."

Triumphus Romanus · January 10, 2001, 23:24

Awesome work Dale!!
Thats very encouraging news.
And I am soooo jealous.....I want to come to Australia bad. Been there twice....oh to be wealthy with nothing to do.
..
Gary

MrFun · January 11, 2001, 01:18

I perked up when I read our interesting modifications. But please clarify - you said you changed this and that but in those documents and on those lines, what specifically did you enter as the new modifications?

Dale · January 11, 2001, 02:16

At this point as I mentioned I used extremes, so I wouldn't base my mods into a real game.

But here's an example of what I did in diplomacy.txt

The original:

ProposalElement {
Proposal PROPOSAL_TREATY_ALLIANCE
SendPriority 100
AcceptPriority 110
RejectPriority 100
SenderRegardResult 200
ReceiverRegardResult 200
ViolationRegardCost -100
ViolationTrustCost -30
}

The moded:

ProposalElement {
Proposal PROPOSAL_TREATY_ALLIANCE
SendPriority 200
AcceptPriority 200
RejectPriority 50
SenderRegardResult 250
ReceiverRegardResult 250
ViolationRegardCost -300
ViolationTrustCost -50
}

As I said, an extreme.

But the increased priorities made the AI consider them. By increasing accept priority to the same, it makes the AI accept more alliance requests, as lowering reject makes it not want to reject it. The violation costs make the AI want to hold onto it a little longer. For example, with a -50 trust, by violating an alliance, the other party is going to take a LONG LONG time before it trusts the violator again. More in line to how I think.

I'll try and fine-tune the diplo a bit more tonight and let you know tomorrow.

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Rommell to a sub-commander outside Tobruk: "Those Australians are in there somewhere. But where? Let's advance and wait till they shoot, then shoot back."

joe77 · January 11, 2001, 05:57

hey dale ...where do you find the road stuff ??

January 11, 2001, 06:58

quote:

Originally posted by joe77 on 01-11-2001 04:57 AM
hey dale ...where do you find the road stuff ??

in the strategies.txt
look for RoadUtilityBonus

Dale · January 11, 2001, 22:09

Hmmm...... having trouble getting AI to build diplos. If I give him a diplo, he gets stuck in diplo. However on the plus side, I actually got this request from the Greeks:

- They requested 200 gold in a haughty tone.
- I refused.
- They threatened war.
- I still refused.
- They declared war.

After declaring war, they sent a couple of stacks at me, which I brushed off and they requested a cease-fire.

This is the weekends goals:

1 - Make the AI build diplos.
2 - Make the AI pursue diplo functions as per their government (communist with other communist, repub with other repubs, etc) Birds of a feather flock together basically.
3 - Make the AI pursue diplo functions based on their personality. Eg. Militarilist leaders pursue demands/threats. Scientists pursue advances/research pacts. Etc.

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Rommell to a sub-commander outside Tobruk: "Those Australians are in there somewhere. But where? Let's advance and wait till they shoot, then shoot back."

Alpha Wolf · January 12, 2001, 01:54

I like the way people are approaching AI changes. Set goals then try to achieve them. I think we have a great opportunity to recreate CtP2 as a playable game.

Keep the ideas flowing.

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History is written by the victor.

Savant · January 13, 2001, 01:11

Dale - Your changes are encouraging. You might want to communicate what you are doing and what you've found with Wes as he is seeking input on what changes ot make to create a revised mod pack.

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'Blood will run'

Dale · January 13, 2001, 22:52

Have got the diplomacy mod happening well, intertwined with Blueo's frenzy mod (See general forum for teaser readme). It is however, the ai.slc I downloaded last friday, so the script may have errors. Since I don't have a website, who wants to host the zip file for me?

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Rommell to a sub-commander outside Tobruk: "Those Australians are in there somewhere. But where? Let's advance and wait till they shoot, then shoot back."

slamp · January 15, 2001, 09:29

Dale, I could do it for you, I will send you an email

OmniGod · January 15, 2001, 11:59

Ready for ddl on King Arthur's Court... I'll try the mod later tonight. But just from reading into some of the changes it looks really good... nice job Dale.

Rich

Dale · January 15, 2001, 18:30

Am emailing version 2.1 of the mod to Rich this morning. Here's a short rundown of changes from 2.0:

- Name change to Diplomod 2.1.
- Made it generic, should work with any other mods, not just frenzy AI.
- Supports frenzy AI 1.02 (just a little change of the script is needed)
- Cleaner and meaner.

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Rommell to a sub-commander outside Tobruk: "Those Australians are in there somewhere. But where? Let's advance and wait till they shoot, then shoot back."

Alpha Wolf · January 15, 2001, 19:33

dale,
I'm glad someone is looking at the diplomatic aspects of the game. however, your mod makes the AI way too timid. Since the AI still insists on infringing on my borders with new cities, its been a tactic of mine to demand sale of these cities before they become too much of a nuisance. On occasion I hit the wrong button and no offer of payment is included in the demand. Today when i did this, instead of receiving a rejection, the AI accepted. In fact, i realized that they accept EVERYTHING. So, I demanded their largest city with no payment. They happily agreed, at which point I demanded every city of every civ I had contact with. I now control 1/2 the world without firing a shot or paying a dollar. Before that, I was getting offers to exchange maps every 4 or 5 turns. I'm looking forward to more realistic diplomacy, can this be fixed without undoing everything?

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History is written by the victor.

Dale · January 15, 2001, 20:59

Thanks for the feedback Alpha Wolf. I'll look into it.

Edit: I've found the problem. I used a "Consider" statement when I should've used a "Change" statement. Will fix for version 2.3

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Rommell to a sub-commander outside Tobruk: "Those Australians are in there somewhere. But where? Let's advance and wait till they shoot, then shoot back."
[This message has been edited by Dale (edited January 15, 2001).]

Cardinal red · January 16, 2001, 06:35

Great work guys - does anybody know where I can get my hand on these mods?

Cheers

OmniGod · January 16, 2001, 10:40

Ahmmmm... *cough* http://ctp2.homestead.com *cough*

MrFun · January 16, 2001, 16:29

Eagerly waiting for Version 2.3.

Dale · January 16, 2001, 17:42

Got a frog in ya throat Rich?

BTW, expect v2.3 (maybe v3.0 if I re-write the lot) after the weekend. I'm starting to code the full AI diplo-handling routines. In previous versions I left it to the program to handle the considerations, but now I've got the mod-skeleton I'm going to add them in.

The AI diplo-handling routines will be the ones that look at the current position and force a proposal/response based on that analysis.

EG. Player[a] looks at player[b] and says "Hmm, nice border-city. I'll extort that." Player[a] sends player[b] a request_give_city. Player[b] looks at the proposal and says "Hang on a second, he receives THIS bonus, and I receive THIS bonus. My bonus is less so I'll counter-request." Player[b] sends player[a] a counter-request for GOLD equalling value of CITY. Player[a] looks at player[b] and says "Hmmm...... I don't have much gold left so NO SALE!" and refuses counter-proposal. BTW, I got this routine running. It seemed like the easiest to do. Obviously, if player[b] receives a 'gift' proposal it's gunna say "Cool! Free stuff!" and accept.

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Rommell to a sub-commander outside Tobruk: "Those Australians are in there somewhere. But where? Let's advance and wait till they shoot, then shoot back."

Martina · January 16, 2001, 18:07

quote:

Originally posted by Dale on 01-15-2001 07:59 PM
I've found the problem. I used a "Consider" statement when I should've used a "Change" statement. Will fix for version 2.3

Could you please let us know the bugfix for this i.e. where we need to replace the "consider" statement with the "change" statement ? I feel I can change this on my own in the 2.2 version (so no publishing of the bugfix version necessary) but I would need to know where....

Thank you!
Martina
[This message has been edited by Martina (edited January 16, 2001).]

Kinjiru · January 16, 2001, 18:56

One suggestion I would make is to take a look at the while Gift offer. Getting a free city can be a VERY bad thing.

In SMAC you could cripple the AI by giving faction A a city of yours that is about to be overrun by faction B. Faction B is going to take that city, even if they are allied with faction A. You could keep doing this and always keep everyone fighting.

If it is possible, I would suggest that the AI consider the diplomatic status outcome for accepting a free city. If the sender is at war with a faction that shares a border with the gift city, then the AI should probably turn down the free city offer.

I have no idea what is possible through modifying the text files, so if this is too complex to implement, no big deal. It would be good to close that kind of loophole though.

Dale · January 16, 2001, 22:32

Martina:

The AI wasn't changing it's diplomatic strategy. It considered it but didn't change it. Therefore, in the 'BeginTurn' routine you need to change all the ConsiderDiplomaticState's to ChangeDiplomaticState.

Kinjiru:

At lunch I drew up some flowcharts to map the flow of diplomatic proposals and what to check (on paper of course). Pity I got beetroot juice all over it.

Anyways, I thought of just that problem you mentioned. I figure it could be overcome if CityToExtort is within 10 squares of OwnCity which would make the city a border-city. That way, at least it has a fighting chance of getting defense there quickly. If you take into account the reality of supply problems, you don't want to accept a city that is too far from your borders, or on another island totally. I think this simple measure could simulate that. Any suggestions anyone?

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Author of Diplomod. The mod to fix diplomacy.

Rommell to a sub-commander outside Tobruk: "Those Australians are in there somewhere. But where? Let's advance and wait till they shoot, then shoot back."

Alpha Wolf · January 17, 2001, 01:23

Nasty cough you have there Omni....

The new design for your website is substantially better.

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History is written by the victor.

Martina · January 17, 2001, 03:21

quote:

Originally posted by Dale on 01-16-2001 09:32 PM
Therefore, in the 'BeginTurn' routine you need to change all the ConsiderDiplomaticState's to ChangeDiplomaticState.

Thanks a lot, Dale! I did exactly that (in the 'BeginTurn' routine, changed from 'ConsiderDiplomaticState to ChangeDiplomaticState in total 3 times), however still I can get each and every city I request from others (independent from the tonality of my request).

Did I miss something ?

Martina

Changmai Beagle · January 17, 2001, 23:35

Dale, I'm having some trouble with your mod. I'm getting an array out of bounds slic error as soon as I startup. I'm also running Frenzy v1.03. Maybe I'll just wait until v. 3.0 and re-try. I unzipped into install, but the files were in a 'default' folder, so I copied them over their namesakes down a couple of levels. Maybe I missed something.

P.S. Is there a way I can set this up with Frenzy as a scenario, and leave the base system alone?

Dale · January 18, 2001, 02:04

To those who have errors with my diplomacy mod, sorry bout that. Here's my suggestion. Instead of me spending time bug-fixing v2.2, I'll continue with v3.0. I now have the AI's swapping maps, advances and peace-treaties. Alliances are a little more complex to work out. I'm basing alliances on a combined overall rating of the two civs, whether they're at war or desire war with the same civs, and regard is fairly high. Now to get that part of the script running.

So question for you guys:

Do ya want me to bug-fix or continue till I get a v3.0 alpha for you to play with?

------------------
Author of Diplomod. The mod to fix diplomacy.

Rommell to a sub-commander outside Tobruk: "Those Australians are in there somewhere. But where? Let's advance and wait till they shoot, then shoot back."