Alternative ai - Page 7

February 6, 2001, 04:18

quote:

Originally posted by JSnider on 02-05-2001 06:57 PM
have you tried removing great wall wonder to see if it changes barb behavior??? if you are correct and this is our of the game then have barb uber alles, or such.
jsnider

Same wolf different username....grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

I just came up with that theory late last night and havent had time to test play it. First I want to see what happens if I let the AI build the Wall.

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History is written by the victor.

February 6, 2001, 04:43

I figured out why the AI starts dropping behind at a certain point. I never realized it before but, I shoot way ahead at the same point I start building trading posts and bazaars. I went thru some old saved games just to see what AI cities looked like. Many of the civs had built no buildings at all. So as long as everyone was purely living off the land, the AIs were ahead. In the BuildListSequences file I added a new BuildingBuildList called Start that immediately follows the garrison list. In it is city walls, granary, bazaar, academy, mill and factory. At least every city will now have the minimum. I may add other buildings as I see them being necessities. This should also help the AI since they wont be building wonders so early and with walls can defend against the barbarians better. I also added 5 prod to trading posts in forests/jungles/mountains to represent wood mills and stone quarries. I added trading post to the
improvement list under production so the AI should build more now, helping both their prod and gold.

As I always feared, the AI doesnt understand city size limits. Some small cities had aquaducts because they were on the growth strategy. Some of the military and science civs NEEDED them but wouldnt build them. in my game, I had also lowered the % of AI specialists to 10%, and had lowered the specialist from 30 to 20. I'm going to have to relook at that and make their largest cities dedicate more scientists and factory workers since they are all working the land, but not growing, so in essence those workers are wasted. I may have to strategically add all the city limit increasers to every build list so no matter what the AI is playing it wont neglect city growth limits. Under the Gold strategy, i notice that freight is second on the list, this is way too high as I've noticed that some civs change trades routes almost every turn and never seem to be lacking the caravans needed to do so. That means they wasted alot of prod building those caravans which just sit waiting to be used. Anyone ever notice any kind of caravan limit in any file?

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History is written by the victor.

Gwap · February 6, 2001, 10:43

I am currently playing at Very Hard on Gigantic with 8 Civs.

Ok, now there are 7 civs, because those nice Australians gave me all their cities when I asked them nicely.

Running

hexagonian · February 6, 2001, 12:30

I've noticed that the AI did not place a high priority on building Trading Posts. I normally build a lot of them, so I do well economically. Adding a production boost only helps me out further.

I remember this being an issue in the MedMod for CTP1. Wes added mines to be built in forests, but the AI seemed incapable of building them.

There's a tile impovement build list in the default game that only has the basic elements; Farm, Mine and so forth. Shouldn't that list be filled out with all of the tile improvements? I was looking at that list earlier, and it seem a little thin. I believe that there weren't even any of the Net improvememts on that list, but the AI seemed to have no trouble building nets so I didn't do anything with it.

And with the edit you made to the BuildingBuildList.txt file is there any other file you need to edit so the AI will use that sequence? (Dumb question, I'm sure, but I'm still learning...)

[This message has been edited by hexagonian (edited February 06, 2001).]

OmniGod · February 6, 2001, 14:42

The version 3.2 final has fixed this problem. They don't give you $&^# now

And that's a good thing

WesW · February 6, 2001, 17:26

Here is a thread to ask questions about topics not covered in the "Conversations" thread. Please restrict your questions to AI behavior. To my knowledge, Richard can't do anything about bugs or multi-player problems.

WesW · February 6, 2001, 17:26

Here is a thread to ask questions about topics not covered in the "Conversations" thread. Please restrict your questions to AI behavior. To my knowledge, Richard can't do anything about bugs or multi-player problems.

Dale · February 6, 2001, 18:44

Yeah, you can't get squat.

Also, I put in special code so if it sees it's Omni on the other side of the screen it won't even give him maps.

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Author of Diplomod. The mod to fix diplomacy.

Rommell to a sub-commander outside Tobruk: "Those Australians are in there somewhere. But where? Let's advance and wait till they shoot, then shoot back."

Alpha Wolf · February 6, 2001, 21:44

quote:

Originally posted by hexagonian on 02-06-2001 11:30 AM
I've noticed that the AI did not place a high priority on building Trading Posts. I normally build a lot of them, so I do well economically. Adding a production boost only helps me out further.

I remember this being an issue in the MedMod for CTP1. Wes added mines to be built in forests, but the AI seemed incapable of building them.

That'll be a major downer if thats still true. I'll test it tonight (i hope).

quote:

There's a tile impovement build list in the default game that only has the basic elements; Farm, Mine and so forth. Shouldn't that list be filled out with all of the tile improvements? I was looking at that list earlier, and it seem a little thin. I believe that there weren't even any of the Net improvememts on that list, but the AI seemed to have no trouble building nets so I didn't do anything with it.

I thought the lack of nets was strange too. Got me to thinking whether tile improvements might be hard coded into the program.

quote:

And with the edit you made to the BuildingBuildList.txt file is there any other file you need to edit so the AI will use that sequence? (Dumb question, I'm sure, but I'm still learning...)

I havent had a chance to play since I made the changes but it loads ok so it should be just those files.

BTW, no such thing as a dumb question if you learned something useful

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History is written by the victor.

Alpha Wolf · February 6, 2001, 22:13

I've noticed that wars between AIs will too frequently cease as soon as I land on their continent with any military units. I just wanted to create a little foothold to get a better view of their war to see how they fight among themselves. I'd been watching many cities change hands by sound (marching boots) and by city borders changing. As soon as I landed, both sides fortified and the war seemed to end. Was this probably just coincedence, or a game design?

Second, how can I keep the barbarians from ever changing out of the barbarian strategy? Altho I'd like them to minimally build garrisons and buildings when they capture a city, I mainly want them to pump out tons of units. My latest theory is that they seem to change to the default strategy as soon as they get a few cities and/or I build the great wall. I do love seeing the Vandals and Visigoths I must admit and had given a small ability to them in the barbarian strategy to expand. They also tend to become totally passive thus my theory that they've changed strategies to default.

Thirdly, how can we force barbs and AI units to stack before they attack? I just had 2 stacks of barbs attack one by one instead of forming an army. Being that rally is part of siege and attack i would have expected the entire stack to have attacked together.

Thanks.

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History is written by the victor.
[This message has been edited by Alpha Wolf (edited February 07, 2001).]

Alpha Wolf · February 6, 2001, 22:13

I've noticed that wars between AIs will too frequently cease as soon as I land on their continent with any military units. I just wanted to create a little foothold to get a better view of their war to see how they fight among themselves. I'd been watching many cities change hands by sound (marching boots) and by city borders changing. As soon as I landed, both sides fortified and the war seemed to end. Was this probably just coincedence, or a game design?

Second, how can I keep the barbarians from ever changing out of the barbarian strategy? Altho I'd like them to minimally build garrisons and buildings when they capture a city, I mainly want them to pump out tons of units. My latest theory is that they seem to change to the default strategy as soon as they get a few cities and/or I build the great wall. I do love seeing the Vandals and Visigoths I must admit and had given a small ability to them in the barbarian strategy to expand. They also tend to become totally passive thus my theory that they've changed strategies to default.

Thirdly, how can we force barbs and AI units to stack before they attack? I just had 2 stacks of barbs attack one by one instead of forming an army. Being that rally is part of siege and attack i would have expected the entire stack to have attacked together.

Thanks.

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History is written by the victor.
[This message has been edited by Alpha Wolf (edited February 07, 2001).]

OmniGod · February 7, 2001, 00:54

Can he help out on the adding terrain ideas that I had in the creation forum? Or who can I get in contact with for that, if anyone?

OmniGod · February 7, 2001, 00:54

Can he help out on the adding terrain ideas that I had in the creation forum? Or who can I get in contact with for that, if anyone?

Alpha Wolf · February 7, 2001, 03:37

Success!!! The AIs were surrounded by trading posts on their mountains. Hmmm, maybe I should but trading post first in the build list so it'll build mines (assuming that the list means top has lower priority). Between that and them building bazaars, I'm way behind in gold and science now

On a new note, you might need to lower the war discontent. I had to build a fairly good sized army to defend against the barbs, and all my cities were extremely unhappy about it. Aint that typical, ya build an army to protect them and they complain...ungrateful cretins

I'm assuming that the AI is similiarly afflicted.

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History is written by the victor.

hexagonian · February 7, 2001, 10:52

Sounding good.

I tried to link up to your site, but its not active anymore.

Got a favor to ask. Could you send me the files that you altered for the trading post fix.(or did you just enter trading posts into the BuildImprovement list - if so, then don't bother. The boost for production is an easy enough fix - as long as I can get the AI to use them I will make that boost too.

And the BuildingBuildList file for the City Improvement sequence (or at least the entry) I want to make sure I have the verbage correct.

I would guess that the lists work in descending order, as the more advancesd stuff is at the bottom of the lists, so placing trading posts before mines might make the AI bypass building them to build mines instead.

Would you also be interested in taking on the challenge of boosting the AI for my Cradle Mod. I have been implementing stuff as I see it on the forums, and your tips have been very good. This mod is currently being playtested, with generally good reports, but it definitely needs tweaking in some areas. As I see it, you have a wealth of practical knowledge with your experimenting, and a look at my files would be much appreciated, to catch some changes that definitely need to be made.

My initial goal has been to implement improvements outside of Slic (as I have no ability in that area)

I have sent version 1.02 to OmniGods website, and can email you the text files to look at too, if you are interested.

All work will be credited in the public release.
[This message has been edited by hexagonian (edited February 07, 2001).]

WesW · February 7, 2001, 21:21

AW, this paste fron the strategies.txt should answer your second question.

STRATEGY_BARBARIAN {

// must inherit from default
Inherit STRATEGY_DEFAULT

This means that the Bars will use the default settings unless new ones are listed in their section.

WesW · February 7, 2001, 21:21

AW, this paste fron the strategies.txt should answer your second question.

STRATEGY_BARBARIAN {

// must inherit from default
Inherit STRATEGY_DEFAULT

This means that the Bars will use the default settings unless new ones are listed in their section.

Alpha Wolf · February 7, 2001, 22:14

quote:

Originally posted by WesW on 02-07-2001 08:21 PM
AW, this paste fron the strategies.txt should answer your second question.

STRATEGY_BARBARIAN {

// must inherit from default
Inherit STRATEGY_DEFAULT

This means that the Bars will use the default settings unless new ones are listed in their section.

This is true, however, they should using the barbarian strategy but instead are buildings wonders and buildings which means they switched to the default. My theory was towards the "why" not the "what". No doubt in my mind that they switch but I cant figure out the circumstances that cause the switch. I cant change the default strategy for fear that it will have adverse effects on the other civs especially new breakaway civs. I'd like to keep the barbarians confined to their own strategy so i can define their behavior in a primarily barbarians way

Just call me Prince of the Barbarians

OOPS, make that Settler of the Barbarians

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History is written by the victor.

Alpha Wolf · February 7, 2001, 22:14

quote:

Originally posted by WesW on 02-07-2001 08:21 PM
AW, this paste fron the strategies.txt should answer your second question.

STRATEGY_BARBARIAN {

// must inherit from default
Inherit STRATEGY_DEFAULT

This means that the Bars will use the default settings unless new ones are listed in their section.

This is true, however, they should using the barbarian strategy but instead are buildings wonders and buildings which means they switched to the default. My theory was towards the "why" not the "what". No doubt in my mind that they switch but I cant figure out the circumstances that cause the switch. I cant change the default strategy for fear that it will have adverse effects on the other civs especially new breakaway civs. I'd like to keep the barbarians confined to their own strategy so i can define their behavior in a primarily barbarians way

Just call me Prince of the Barbarians

OOPS, make that Settler of the Barbarians

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History is written by the victor.

Alpha Wolf · February 7, 2001, 22:41

quote:

Originally posted by hexagonian on 02-07-2001 09:52 AM
I tried to link up to your site, but its not active anymore.

I was one of those that had something happen to my account the other night, and it was pointing to the wrong place (notice my new settler status

) I'm trying to get the link to work again but so far no luck.

quote:

Got a favor to ask. Could you send me the files that you altered for the trading post fix.(or did you just enter trading posts into the BuildImprovement list - if so, then don't bother. The boost for production is an easy enough fix - as long as I can get the AI to use them I will make that boost too.

And the BuildingBuildList file for the City Improvement sequence (or at least the entry) I want to make sure I have the verbage correct.

ImprovementList:
IMPROVEMENT_LIST_PRODUCTION {
Improvement TILEIMP_TRADING_POST ## JAW
Improvement TILEIMP_MINES
}
-----------------------
BuildingBuildList.txt:
add 1 to the number at the start of the file.

BUILDING_BUILD_LIST_START {
Building IMPROVE_CITY_WALLS
Building IMPROVE_GRANARY
Building IMPROVE_BAZAAR
Building IMPROVE_ACADEMY
Building IMPROVE_MILL
Building IMPROVE_FACTORY
}

quote:

Would you also be interested in taking on the challenge of boosting the AI for my Cradle Mod. I have been implementing stuff as I see it on the forums, and your tips have been very good. This mod is currently being playtested, with generally good reports, but it definitely needs tweaking in some areas. As I see it, you have a wealth of practical knowledge with your experimenting, and a look at my files would be much appreciated, to catch some changes that definitely need to be made.

I'll gladly take a look at them, but it wont be until next week as this weekend I go to get firsthand knowledge of barbarians, i mean cheeseheads, ooops, I mean Wisconsinites

quote:

My initial goal has been to implement improvements outside of Slic (as I have no ability in that area)

I dont blame you on this. Every attempt of mine to code SLIC fails on my PC even tho I've been assured the same code works on other machines.

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History is written by the victor.
[This message has been edited by Alpha Wolf (edited February 07, 2001).]

Alpha Wolf · February 7, 2001, 23:13

FTP site is functional again...dang case sensitivity

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History is written by the victor.

hexagonian · February 8, 2001, 10:53

Thanks - Make sure you read the posts about the Mod to get an idea what is happening.

Locutus · February 8, 2001, 14:31

Sorry, wrong thread.
[This message has been edited by Locutus (edited February 08, 2001).]

Locutus · February 8, 2001, 14:31

Sorry, wrong thread.
[This message has been edited by Locutus (edited February 08, 2001).]

Dale · February 8, 2001, 17:57

John:
As far as I knew peace treaties don't give you any other agreements. I know the icons don't show up on the intelligence screen, but I may be wrong. Great, now I'm all confused........

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Author of Diplomod. The mod to fix diplomacy.

Rommell to a sub-commander outside Tobruk: "Those Australians are in there somewhere. But where? Let's advance and wait till they shoot, then shoot back."

Dale · February 8, 2001, 17:57

John:
As far as I knew peace treaties don't give you any other agreements. I know the icons don't show up on the intelligence screen, but I may be wrong. Great, now I'm all confused........

------------------
Author of Diplomod. The mod to fix diplomacy.

Rommell to a sub-commander outside Tobruk: "Those Australians are in there somewhere. But where? Let's advance and wait till they shoot, then shoot back."

Alpha Wolf · February 8, 2001, 23:56

quote:

Originally posted by pchang on 02-08-2001 12:52 PM
All you have to do is fill in the Barbarian strategy and get rid of the inherit STRATEGY_DEFAULT line.

I tried that once and got all kind of errors. At some point the AI expects the barbarians to switch and if it cant, LOOKOUT!!!!

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History is written by the victor.

Alpha Wolf · February 8, 2001, 23:56

quote:

Originally posted by pchang on 02-08-2001 12:52 PM
All you have to do is fill in the Barbarian strategy and get rid of the inherit STRATEGY_DEFAULT line.

I tried that once and got all kind of errors. At some point the AI expects the barbarians to switch and if it cant, LOOKOUT!!!!

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History is written by the victor.

Alpha Wolf · February 8, 2001, 23:57

quote:

Originally posted by hexagonian on 02-08-2001 09:53 AM
Thanks - Make sure you read the posts about the Mod to get an idea what is happening.

Will do

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History is written by the victor.

John Barbarossa · February 9, 2001, 01:44

Kull,
That IS big news on the Civ2 front, especially the gigamaps which make me wonder how a giga-Europe might look.

As for denigrating C2 mod efforts, it is important to realise that their efforts were only viewed unfavourably compared to the greater effort of ridding the underachieving and user-unfriendly CTP2 (although the type of differances in the game you discussed may take similar depths of advanced technical knowledge - I don't know). Without any point of reference, I would like to make it clear that C2 modifiers added 12 months onto the life of C2 for me and my circle of friends (prior to the multi-player version) without ever asking me for a penny.

As I seem to be in the business of handing out pats on the back, I hope you and your fellow C2 modifyers will accept one as well

Lots of games receive fan support, but Civ, in all it's incarnations, has attracted some of the most intelligent and generous people to it over the years.

Regards
John
[This message has been edited by John Barbarossa (edited February 08, 2001).]