Diplomod V3.0 - Page 2

Martina · January 30, 2001, 14:51

quote:

It should be easy to find this section. By putting in this 'catch' it should halt the AI in it's more favourable diplomacy that I've programmed (...)

Hope this helps and let me know.

Hi Dale,

Yes it did help perfectly, so the "bug" is removed. If at war, the AI will reject blunt advance requests from my side. Many thanks for this !

Still, in my testing so far, an AI not being at war with you will give you any advance with nearly 100% chance even if you don't offer anything in return. That fits a little bit in other players' perception of "too easy".

I know this phenomenon is discussable (some might like it, some might not like it), however is there an easy way out of it ?

Kiss,
Martina

Dale · January 30, 2001, 19:32

Okay folks, it's time for discussion here about the offer maps/advance problem. Remember also that there is an internal bug I can't fix related to advance requests.

1. The AI never used to swap maps - fixed.
2. Request to speed up AI's 'exploring' - fixed by increasing chance of AI's offering maps to each other.
3. Now there's a request to slow down the AI's offering maps to each other, or to have them only swap maps with civs they know.

As it stands, there is no way in SLIC to check if one civ has contact with another civ. The script at the moment processes considerations for offering maps to each other from turn 1. If the AI knows where another AI is then there is a greater chance they will setup trade routes enhancing their economic and science ratings. Beneficial to the game. So what do I do folks? How can I 'please' the general audience?

1. Reinstate the original routines which will make the AI refuse everything by default?
2. Eliminate the offer maps routine? Or slow it down somehow?
3. Make the AI refuse to give it's maps to you?
4. Uninstall the whole mod and scrap the lot?

Sorry, the last one was a bit pissy wasn't it?

But seriously, what do you suggest? I need ideas of what YOU want to make it happen.

------------------
Author of Diplomod. The mod to fix diplomacy.

Rommell to a sub-commander outside Tobruk: "Those Australians are in there somewhere. But where? Let's advance and wait till they shoot, then shoot back."

Martina · January 30, 2001, 19:44

quote:

1. Reinstate the original routines which will make the AI refuse everything by default?
2. Eliminate the offer maps routine? Or slow it down somehow?
3. Make the AI refuse to give it's maps to you?
4. Uninstall the whole mod and scrap the lot?

Dale,

I think everyone here just wants to shout out one little sentence as overall message: GREAT WORK WHICH SIGNIFICANTLY IMPROVES GAMEPLAY !!!

Besides this, you might want to think about some cosmetic changes to your Mod, however always keep in mind that nearly everyone using your Mod should be much happier now with CTP2.

So my personal answers are:

ad 1: This is not a relevant option at all. You basiscally have implemented the "true" diplomatic model into CTP2, so let's not go back.

ad 2: Slowing down while not eliminating it is for me personally the most preferred option. It might compromise with the AI growth rate, but this can be changed easily in the DiffDB.txt cheat areas (people can do this on their own in my pov rather than including the DiffDB.txt in your Mod).

ad 3: No, but somehow overall make it less probable that the AI gives you maps as gifts. They should only give it to you if they are scared/impressed of you. I know this might not be feasible in SLIC though. Making it refuse automatically is not something I would like to see, so I prefer to live with a "too easy maps to get glitch" rather than eliminating this at all.

ad 4: See ad 1 :-)

Martina

JSnider · January 30, 2001, 20:09

prefer slowing it down, or if possible an escalating chance of success, so starts low and rises with time or something. thus later in game greater chance vs right away before folks know your a nasty conqueror. And yes this mod with frenzy make the game at least playable and less predictable .. also i always offer something for advances (just cause it don't need to doesn't mean won't simulate that it works right).

so thanx for the great work .. and looking fwd to 3.x
jsnider

Dale · January 30, 2001, 21:17

Okay, how bout if I try this then:

- Half the acceptance chance of the AI to human proposals.
- Currently exchange AI-AI maps is 10% chance. Have it so for the first 100 turns it decreases from 1-in-110 chance to 1-in-10 chance, decreasing by 1 chance per turn. By then, you're going to know where most of the civs are anyway, if not all.

------------------
Author of Diplomod. The mod to fix diplomacy.

Rommell to a sub-commander outside Tobruk: "Those Australians are in there somewhere. But where? Let's advance and wait till they shoot, then shoot back."

dennis_caver · January 31, 2001, 14:19

Dale - I think the above compromise sounds good. You can't please everybody. So go ahead based on your own
gameplay make the final version and then have some fun.

See Ya out there,
Dennis

David Murray · January 31, 2001, 14:19

quote:

Originally posted by Dale on 01-30-2001 08:17 PM
Okay, how bout if I try this then:

- Half the acceptance chance of the AI to human proposals.
- Currently exchange AI-AI maps is 10% chance. Have it so for the first 100 turns it decreases from 1-in-110 chance to 1-in-10 chance, decreasing by 1 chance per turn. By then, you're going to know where most of the civs are anyway, if not all.

Dale, you're a star.

I think your mod is great, I'm just worried that the AI might become too much of a pushover.

It's a difficult balance, I know, and I'm not doing anything to help, but congratulations on your hard work.

Dale · January 31, 2001, 18:37

David:
In light of your concern I agree. It is difficult.

But I'm getting the balance with all the feedback. Thanks all.

ALL:
I tested my increasing chance of maps theory, and it still went too fast. So I changed it to 1-in-300 chance at the start of the game increasing by 1 point to a 1-in-100 chance by turn 200 where it flattens out. After testing 5 starts to turn 200, the AI has definitely slowed it's map swapping. On average I found that by turn 50 only two civs had swapped maps. By turn 100 up to 4 had, and by turn 200 nearly all. However, on a realistic point, most AI's did not have current information on the other AI's. It was outdated and basic.

V3.2 release:
- Implements above increasing-chance formula for map swapping.
- NEW PROPOSAL: Request/offer break agreements. Can break agreements with a third party. Eg. Have peace treaty with civ[a], civ[b] at war with civ[a], offer to break agreements with civ[a] TO civ[b]. If they accept, civ[a] dislikes you more, civ[b] likes you more.
- Halved AI acceptance of human proposals. Harder to get stuff through an AI now (pointed at advance problem).
- "Catch" put in to slow diplo activity from an AI if at war with you.

Download when Rich puts it in the DB.

I believe now that we are at an end for Diplomod development. I feel happy now with how the AI performs diplomacy, between itself and with the player. Thanks for all the support and feedback. BTW, to see what the diplomacy model CAN do, take a look at "treaty.jpg" in the zip file. I got sent that after paying off a civ to keep them happy while I beat the crap out of the Americans.

You'd never see that with the normal CTP2 diplo model.

------------------
Author of Diplomod. The mod to fix diplomacy.

Rommell to a sub-commander outside Tobruk: "Those Australians are in there somewhere. But where? Let's advance and wait till they shoot, then shoot back."

JSnider · January 31, 2001, 21:56

If and only if now, as with the adds you plan it sounds great, want to build on increasing chance with time you could postulate that after a certain point the chance would go down again, the old bell curve approach to life. in effect at start they don't know you (so don't trust you), then with time you become familar (increased chance), then with more time they are sure they can't trust you (decreased chance). just a thought ...

jsnider

OmniGod · January 31, 2001, 23:50

The final is posted now. I couldn't believe the treaty image... I almost fell off my chair. Great work Dale, the game is a billion (that's a British billion) times better than the shipped version. Hope to see some more work from you if it peaks your interest.

Rich

David Murray · February 1, 2001, 01:16

quote:

Originally posted by OmniGod on 01-31-2001 10:50 PM
The final is posted now. I couldn't believe the treaty image... I almost fell off my chair. Great work Dale, the game is a billion (that's a British billion) times better than the shipped version. Hope to see some more work from you if it peaks your interest.

Rich

Peace treaty?

I hope that was sarcasm.

I've had peace treaties proposed to me before in the unmodified CTP2 game...so I guess you guys must be being sarcastic here.

OmniGod · February 1, 2001, 01:28

I've never had the AI propose to me before. It's always been a hard nosed jack-a__ to me. I may beat the crap out of it's army and sack it's greatest city but never have they offered a treaty. A cease fire, yes... a treaty no. As I said before, I think the AI hates me no matter what I do... I just an evil genius I guess

February 1, 2001, 01:35

Hey ya AI did that too........Theve always been @$$es to me too.I think they too nice tho.I asked for there capitol and they gave it to me......Then i just built up in the center of there CIV.And i dont care what kind of mods you guys come out with the AI will always
Fortify near your capitol, Use your Roads , and send settlers into your borders.........no diplomod can fix that

----------------------------
"Over the fence quickly , and save your strength for the top, get over the fence quickly!"-Lou Armistead Rallying his Brigade ;During Pickets charge Shortly before the Union Line Collapsed

Dale · February 1, 2001, 02:00

quote:

Originally posted by MR. SADDAM on 02-01-2001 12:35 AM
Hey ya AI did that too........Theve always been @$$es to me too.I think they too nice tho.I asked for there capitol and they gave it to me......Then i just built up in the center of there CIV.And i dont care what kind of mods you guys come out with the AI will always
Fortify near your capitol, Use your Roads , and send settlers into your borders.........no diplomod can fix that

I take it you haven't tried the last two versions of diplomod. AI WILL be booted if you get a withdraw agreement out of 'em. Settlers 'n all!

I have never been offered a treaty from an AI till last night. Cease-fires by the barrel loads, but nothing higher.

------------------
Author of Diplomod. The mod to fix diplomacy.

Rommell to a sub-commander outside Tobruk: "Those Australians are in there somewhere. But where? Let's advance and wait till they shoot, then shoot back."

Huysmans_666 · February 1, 2001, 03:49

Hi Y'all,

What I'm curious about is, I have frenzy AI 1.04 installed along with the Diplomod 3.1, in earlier version of diplomod you had special routines built in to deal with the frenzyAI, but hows this now, will the 2 mods peacefully coexist or will one beat the other ?

Oh and maybe this is the wrong place and all but ehmm, I installed the Altsci mod...great mod btw, but after that I installed your diplomod 3.1 and if I open a savegame of the AltSci mod I made before the 3.1 implementation, it crashed saying that it can't find a sprite file in it's asset tree.

Can someone please help me ?

David Murray · February 1, 2001, 14:26

Hi!

Yeah definitely, I've had peace treaties before in the unmodified game. All I needed to do was be nice to them, lavish them with gold, etc. It was mainly "diplomacy-minded peacemakers" that proposed to me. But I honestly have had that before.

Now if the mod can get the AI to propose an alliance, and threaten me with sanctions if I refuse, *then* I would be impressed.

David Murray · February 1, 2001, 16:55

Dale, don't give up on it yet!

What you've done so far is fantastic. But I do have some more suggestions and comments! Please read 'em.

1. I've been playing the latest version and the AI is a lot more cautious earlier in the game. Well done.

2. I love the way you've rewritten the break agreements back into the game!

3. Is there any way you could rewrite the other options Activision left out at the last minute, like asking the AI to mount troops at a specific city, the annual gold payment thing or asking the AI to stop trading with other civs, etc? Also, is it possible for an AI civ to create a trade embargo against the human?

4. There is a bug--it is possible to trade tech without an embassy. I'm sure this could easily be fixed?

Overall, an excellent mod--I'm really excited.

[This message has been edited by David Murray (edited February 01, 2001).]

Dale · February 1, 2001, 17:49

Huys:
No idea, sorry mate.

David:
The coding is IN there for an AI to create an alliance and threaten ya, but as to if it'll use it........ *shrug*

1 - That was one of my goals. Make it more cautious at the start. It used to be too easy to get anything at the start of the game.

2 - Thanks. The code was still in there, so it was as simple as taking out 2 "Disabled" statements in diplomacyproposal.txt

3 - They took out the hardcoding of these routines. I reinstated some of the extra threats in diplomacythreat.txt and all I got was garbled msgs and crashes.

It woulda been nice to have some of them back (included tributes, amassing troops, and others).

4 - Didn't realise I'd enabled that without embassy...... Hmmmm...... But here's the fix for it.

a - Open diplomacyproposal.txt
b - Find PROPOSAL_OFFER_GIVE_ADVANCE & PROPOSAL_REQUEST_GIVE_ADVANCE.
c - At the bottom of each make it look like this:

Code:

    DetailsEx3 { DetailsEven DIP_DETAILS_OFFER_GIVE_ADVANCE_EX_3 }
    DetailsEx4 { DetailsEven DIP_DETAILS_OFFER_GIVE_ADVANCE_EX_4 }
    HasEmbassy
    Image "updi01.tga"
}

Personally, I like it this way.

------------------
Author of Diplomod. The mod to fix diplomacy.

Rommell to a sub-commander outside Tobruk: "Those Australians are in there somewhere. But where? Let's advance and wait till they shoot, then shoot back."

David Murray · February 1, 2001, 19:06

quote:

David:
The coding is IN there for an AI to create an alliance and threaten ya, but as to if it'll use it........ *shrug*

I will playtest extensively and see what happens, as I'm sure many others will now you've given the game a new lease of life.

quote:

2 - Thanks. The code was still in there, so it was as simple as taking out 2 "Disabled" statements in diplomacyproposal.txt

Hmmm...I wonder why Activision disabled that. ???

quote:

3 - They took out the hardcoding of these routines. I reinstated some of the extra threats in diplomacythreat.txt and all I got was garbled msgs and crashes.

It woulda been nice to have some of them back (included tributes, amassing troops, and others).

Damn, that's sucky. Perhaps they realized that the AI they'd created was too useless to follow through with their enhanced diplomatic options so just got rid of them....

Also, thanks for the quick response for a fix.

David Murray · February 1, 2001, 21:22

My latest observations are that the AIs all seem to be very chummy with each other...but don't create any alliances/treaties or anything with each other. The AI hasn't been very forthcoming to me yet either...it's just been getting mad and talking about resenting me for sharing the same continent...hmmm...I'm at 150BC on very hard level and already Japan has got gunpowder, so let's see how things go later in the game....

David Murray · February 1, 2001, 22:19

The latest bug.

Take a look at this. http://members.aol.com/davidwamurray/ummm.jpg

I must admit, it did make me look twice when I saw it.

BlueO · February 1, 2001, 22:32

Maybe its a feature! Enemy spies broke into an English Embassy and made that fake proposal!

Dale · February 1, 2001, 22:48

Ummm..........

ummmm........

That's a good one.

a) Remember that this proposal event was canned by Activision. Maybe this is why? If anyone from Activision happens to wander by, is this why break agreements got canned?

b) The other thing I can think of is you had an agreement with the Poms and they didn't want to have it anymore and requested you to break it and take the regard hit? *shrug* Dunno. Just blabbing here.

Bottom line: That one won't be fixable.

------------------
Author of Diplomod. The mod to fix diplomacy.

Rommell to a sub-commander outside Tobruk: "Those Australians are in there somewhere. But where? Let's advance and wait till they shoot, then shoot back."

David Murray · February 1, 2001, 23:11

Yep...in the previous turn I had forced them into a peace treaty and a military pact to get them to attack Japan, whose military power was becoming quite substantial...but still, I think it's a bit of a strange request. I mean, I threatened them into accepting so they obviously shouldn't be telling me to cancel it next turn...?

Also, does the AI create peace/trade/ally with each other? In my game, they haven't done so yet...oh well, I'll keep watching....

David Murray · February 2, 2001, 02:41

Hmm, is Diplomod supposed to make the AI more aggressive, too?

Look at this: (yet another screenshot

) http://members.aol.com/davidwamurray/invasion.jpg

I wouldn't be experiencing this normally. It's great, because I genuinely feel like I'm up against it now. And that's without frenzy.

I've had nothing but grief with the AI making demands and invading my turf.

(Not as annoying as the Illegal operation which has just made me lose about 50 turns though)

BlueO · February 4, 2001, 18:05

Not sure where to post this exactly, so I'll post it here. Finally downloaded the new version fo diplomod, and volia, it works great!. So I went ahead, and make a small change to the frenzy AI so the player can have peace treaties with the AI and not be attacked. Don't know if this code works but here it is, just cut and paste to the end of the Frenzy AI slic file.

Code:

HandleEvent(BeginTurn) 'FAI_FRENZY_ADDON setup' pre {
	DisableTrigger('FAI_FRENZY level');
	DisableTrigger('FAI_FRENZY_ADDON setup');
}

HandleEvent(BeginTurn) 'FAI_FRENZY_ADDON everyturn' pre {
	if (!IsHumanPlayer(player[0]) && FAI_INIT == 1000) {
		if (FAI_FRENZY != 4) {
			if (!HasAgreement(player[0], FAI_HumanNumber, 32) && !HasAgreement(player[0], FAI_HumanNumber, 33) && !HasAgreement(player[0], FAI_HumanNumber, 38)) {
				if (FAI_FRENZY == -1) {
					FAI_FRENZY = 4;
				} elseif (FAI_HateLevel[player[0]] >= FAI_HATE4_COEF) {
					FAI_FRENZY = 4;
				} elseif (FAI_HateLevel[player[0]] >= FAI_HATE3_COEF) {
					FAI_FRENZY = 3;
				} elseif (FAI_HateLevel[player[0]] >= FAI_HATE2_COEF) {
					FAI_FRENZY = 2;
				} elseif (FAI_HateLevel[player[0]] >= FAI_HATE1_COEF) {
					FAI_FRENZY = 1;
				}
			} elseif (FAI_FRENZY != -1) {
				FAI_FRENZY = 0;
			}
		} elseif (HasAgreement(player[0], FAI_HumanNumber, 38)) {
			FAI_FRENZY = -1;
		} elseif (HasAgreement(player[0], FAI_HumanNumber, 32)) {
			if (random(100) < 90) {
				FAI_FRENZY = -1;
			}
		} elseif (HasAgreement(player[0], FAI_HumanNumber, 33)) {
			if (random(100) < 50) {
				FAI_FRENZY = -1;
			}
		}
	}
}

[This message has been edited by BlueO (edited February 04, 2001).]

Dale · February 4, 2001, 19:16

Cool Blue. I was going to look at this during the week, but since you've got something I'll just get on with immigration.

Thanks. I'm sure this'll make a lot of people happy.

------------------
Author of Diplomod. The mod to fix diplomacy.

Rommell to a sub-commander outside Tobruk: "Those Australians are in there somewhere. But where? Let's advance and wait till they shoot, then shoot back."

Huysmans_666 · February 5, 2001, 05:14

Dale,

Great work man, the AI is crazy about each other !

But like always I have some problems and I think they are Diplomod related.
I never have any crashes or errors in an ordinary game, I do have em in Mods but that's life

Now, I installed your mod to be run with any normal game en thus I should have no errors, wrong, I've had 2 crashes to the desktop with no message and on 2 occasions the program returned to the desktop gave a weird message and returned to the game and I could continue.

The messages I got were really wierdand seemed to come from inside the game, not a text file or script, because it states the line with the error, It didn't know !
I wish I wrote down the error message but I didn't !!!

Is this diplomod related or what ?

Keep up the good work DALE !

thanatos.tod · February 5, 2001, 11:58

well, i always get an error like this:

SLIC ERROR

D:\CTP2\...\withdraw.slc:50: No function named GetAgreementDuration

anything u can do with that???

Also played a game on impossible...still

.either I'm ways too good (yes,yes,yes,tell me), or...

thanatos.tod · February 5, 2001, 12:00

hey davidmuray, your pic is weird...just can see the left half of it..the rest is messed up