Omni's Previews

OmniGod · February 3, 2001, 02:33

Okay, I've completed a large section of my final world map and I thought everyone would love a preview. This section has taken a total of 24 hours to create to this point. There is a section north of this preview that I have yet to be fully happy with. Hope you like it.

This is scaled to 1/8 the size of the map. Base map consists of 20 deg X 10 deg squares, therefore this sample is 10 base squares by 5 base squares (50 total squares). The map is based on the lakes, rivers, geology and topography provided by Cornell @ http://atlas.geo.cornell.edu/webmap/

Full World Map size is 10800x6120@100pix/inch (64Meg bmp).

Previous preview of the UK area before colour coding to the BMP2CTP2 convertor.

This preview is from a 700x343 map in CTP2.
[This message has been edited by OmniGod (edited February 03, 2001).]

Triumphus Romanus · February 3, 2001, 12:49

All I can say is....wow!

Now hurry up :-)

February 3, 2001, 16:20

quote:

a 700x343 map in CTP2

exccellent stuff, but exactly how many turns can you play on that map before your computer turns off itself in protest?

Harlan · February 3, 2001, 16:55

Omni,
Great job, huge scale. However, I have one pretty important quibble. While the coastlines are perfect, the terrain types seem a bit wierd. The elevation is a tad strange, for instance almost no Appalachian Mountains. Elevation is hard to do, cos do you make it purely based on distance above sea level, in which case some flat but high places come out as Hill or Mountain when they shouldn't, or do you do it based on degree of change in elevation, which requires a ton of judgements calls and eyeballing? I think the second is better, but much tougher.

The greenery also seems a bit off. Like looking at England, you've got a huge forest right in the industrial heartland of England, so the map can't be based on current data, and most of Ireland looks like Kansas- flat plains, so it can't be based on older data when Ireland was very green.

I followed the link you're using for the raw data, and it seems there doesn't seem to be really good vegetation data there. I've got some maps you might find useful, that apear to be in the same projection, great relief maps. What era do you want to vegetation to be based on- modern day, with all the massive deforestation? Or how things look naturally, before we f**ked things up so much? Or some combo in between? For instance, I've got a great data set that covers all the world in CTP2 type categories and its based on about 1960 data, before the deforestation really got out of control. But the map projection isn't the same, so you'd have to do a lot of eyeballing to get it on your map.

OmniGod · February 3, 2001, 18:27

If I could get the 1960's data you have Harlan would be great. From the site there wasn't anything on vegetation only general geology which I traced back to a Canadian Geology Site. While it did refer to some vegetation it was more divided into various forestation types and planes. The data for the mountains is based on above sea levels. I agree this does have it's problems. But the reason some of the mountains of the East aren't there is because of the raw data that I had and when I coverted it to indexed colour. I had varying levels but had to decide which would be represented and which wouldn't. The hills I choose as the first level above the sea to decrease the total mountain area. For when I reach the S.E. Asia the mountains there are far above the ones in the Western part of NA. It was a judgement call to keep contrast between the West and East. But any comments you have are more than welcome and I would definately love the data you referred to so that I can improve the overall map picture. Thanks

Please also note that the England picture was based on pre colour coding and the image represents nothing done by me, only what was provided by the site. I agree there should be some hills in Ireland but none appeared on the elevation maps I had. If you have a site with beter data sets I sure would love to have it.

EDIT: I just fiddled with some of the datasets and came up with this. Is this more to the liking you were pointing out Harlan?

[This message has been edited by OmniGod (edited February 03, 2001).]

MrFun · February 3, 2001, 21:29

Omni - this is looking great!

February 4, 2001, 01:02

I wish Activision had been this good.

Magnificent.

OmniGod · February 4, 2001, 01:23

I've been given a great lead on some sites for vegeation data and will be adding those to my map. For now I'm updating the topographical considerations with data just received from NGDC, you'll love it and I'll post the Mountain/Hill map when I'm finished, probably 1-2 hours.

This is going great now. Thanks Harlan for pointing me to some other mapping sites.
http://viz.globe.gov/viz-bin/map.cgi...0&DS=G1&e=topo
http://edcdaac.usgs.gov/glcc/na_int.html
http://www.fourmilab.ch/cgi-bin/uncgi/Earth
http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/seg/topo/globegal.shtml

New preview of the topography map. This sample is 600x353 (didn't think when I made it

)

[This message has been edited by OmniGod (edited February 04, 2001).]

Unspeakable Horror · February 4, 2001, 01:26

It´s really good!

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"For each side the only acceptable outcome was the Total elimination of the other..."

jackazzstudent · February 4, 2001, 04:44

Very nice map omni! Its good to see someone paying attention to geology in their maps, although I'm somewhat biased on that. If anyone out there studies Geoscience, as I do, they hopefully find it irksome that diamonds are found on oceanic volcanoes in CTP2.

Adam

CyberBadger · February 4, 2001, 04:51

A Magnificent piece of work. I look forward to the finished article.

Salvius · February 4, 2001, 09:28

Comment/Suggestion:

What I've done, when using topographical data as part of the basis for a map, is base the hills & mountains on the slope -- that is, the change in elevation.

I don't have any examples ready to put up, but I'll try to post an example later today. I've done this with NASA data of Mars, and with a fractal-generated world, and been pretty happy with it. I use a program called Wilbur to generate slope maps, which can be found at http://www.ridgenet.net/~jslayton/software.html

Salvius · February 4, 2001, 17:51

OK, after playing with the ETOPO5 dataset for an hour or so, I generated this using a slope map from Wilbur. I've left everything else as water and grassland, and I also left the mountains black, to make it easier to see where hills and mountains are:

I should point out that I made only the most basic attempt to adjust the slope map to get something that looked good, and only a rough attempt at setting sea level where it belongs. I also used Fractal Terrains as an intermediate step to get the data into a Mercator projection (just for fun) and crop off most of Antarctica. If I were doing this for real, I'd have used the GTOPO30 dataset (resolution of 1 km instead of 10), and been much more meticulous with things. This is for demonstration purposes only.

[This message has been edited by Salvius (edited February 04, 2001).]

Harlan · February 4, 2001, 18:12

Omni,
This Wilbur sounds really potentially great. Let me know how it goes. Also, let me know which of the data sets I pointed to you prove useful.

Also, as long as you're making a map, you might want to make two versions: one, a "terrain rich" version, and the second, using the regular terrain. By terrain rich, what I mean is using extra terrain types on top of just the ones the regular game uses. I wrote a post about this a while back... One can't add new terrain types with new graphics, but one can add new terrain types using the same data sets.

In the latest Alex scenario, I took advantage of this in several ways. One, I created two types of desert: a regular desert and a "Sand Dune" desert (the current "sand dune" type being renamed to what they really are: "desert hills"). The Sand Dune is completely desolate, lacking all trade goods or production value of any kind, hard to pass through, and only units with the "mountain" flag can even try. There's a slightly different terrain graphic set to use here, that is the same as regular except without the cactus, skulls and so forth.

As I posted in some other long-lost thread, one can do this with other terrain types. For instance, have taiga/boreal forests look like regular forest, but when you transform them you get plains instead of grassland. Or have two types of deep ocean, differing only by movement speed. A faster type would represent the Gulf Stream and other currents. Give them a much higher trade good movement value, and trade routes will tend to go along these currents, greatly increasing naval strategy. There are other potentials as well in using the same terrain graphics for more than one type, though if we went too gozongas with that, it could become very confusing.

Another thing I did in Alex is use Polar Mountain to represent any mountain area over about 20,000 feet. This makes this terrain type more useful, since otherwise the only place to use this would be Greenland and Antarctica.

Anyways, my point is, it would be easy now if you make a map including all of these distinctions, so I hope you include them as you make your map. Then its easy later to wipe out the ones you don't need- to convert all taiga to regular forest would take a couple of seconds in Photoshop, for instance. But its hard to go the other way. If you don't add them now, adding them later will be nearly impossible.

OmniGod · February 4, 2001, 22:10

Okay guys this is what I've gotten.

Topographical Map 86400x21600 http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/seg/topo/gltiles.shtml
Satelitte Image 12288x6144 http://www.fourmilab.ch/cgi-bin/uncgi/Earth
Global Ground Cover (too small and would like larger)

Anyone have any good sites to large databases for ground cover, please don't worry about the size of the downloads. I've tried
http://edcdaac.usgs.gov/glcc/glcc_version1.html#Global http://edcdaac.usgs.gov/1KM/comp10d.html http://www.geog.umd.edu/landcover/1km-map.html

The Maryland site has great potential (Plate Carree projection), but when I download the files there and import to photoshop there is only a black image. I know it has to do with converting the file from .raw to another type. If anyone has any idea or can help me convert this it would be greatly accepted. The file itself is 889Megs big thus I don't suggest downloading it and converting it yourself. There is the following data included:

Platte Carre File Dimensions and Projection Information:

Image Size : 43200 pixels by 21600 lines
Projection : Geographic (lat/lon)
Earth Ellipsoid : Sphere, radius 6370997 m
Upper Left Corner : 180d00'00.00" W Lon 90d00'00.00" N Lat
Lower Right Corner : 180d00'00.00" E Lon 90d00'00.00" S Lat
Pixel Size (in Degrees) : 0.00833 Lon 0.00833 Lat
(Equivalent Deg,Min,Sec) : 0d00'30.00" Lon 0d00'30.00" Lat

8-bit unsigned integer

Any help or another site would greatly speed this project up and increase its accuracy. Thanks in advance.
[This message has been edited by OmniGod (edited February 04, 2001).]

OmniGod · February 5, 2001, 15:06

I have had no intention to do either civ II or III but if when I complete this and at this rate, if I can complete this and the mapping is similar then there shouldn't be a problem taking the dataset and creating maps for the other civ games.

skorpion59 · February 5, 2001, 15:26

Omni,

I downloaded and converted all 16 Globe 1km maps since I was using these maps as another input source in the map conversion pgm. I also joined all 16 together and made one big-a map. Unfortunately, a few days ago, I lost the 40g network drive all the data was on so it is now history. If you have any interest in thse maps let me know since I have the raw data specifications needed for the conversion.

In the mean time, I will look at the Plate Carree maps and see if I can figure out the conversion process for them.

OmniGod · February 5, 2001, 15:43

Skorpion...

For conversion you mean the source data, size and colour conversion info. If that's what you mean I downloaded those and I have decompressed the files and just have to put the image together. If you mean you isolated out the mountains/hills/slope calculations then I'm definately interested since I can't seem to get Wilbur to work properly yet. I get some data but it's not what I want. The change in elevation from ocean to continental shelf to hills to mountains seems to blur together and I get what I believe to be a useless map. If I can't figure this out soon I'll can the idea of slope calculations and just map it as is. I know that's not the ideal way to do it but if it's not going to happen for me with the small amount of time that I have left before finals, 1.5 weeks, then I'll just have to make due with what I have.

Rich

skorpion59 · February 5, 2001, 17:13

Omni,

Are you speaking about the GLOBAL 1km map or the Plate Carree 1km map?

I have been using the GLOBAL 1km map and color indexing for conversion so I have not 'isolated the mountains/hills/slopes' per say.

One problem you might run into is size and memory. The Global 1km and Plate Carree 1km maps are both 43200x21600. Photoshop max is 30000x? and PSP max is 32767x? so you can't produce a 43200x21600 map. I ended up settling for 10800x5400 becuase that is all my memory would allow for and stay proportional. (43200x21600 --> 21600x10800 --> 10800x5400)

It appears we are attacking this thing from 2 totally different directions so I probably can't be of any help to you. However, if there is something I can do or check on for you, just let me know. In the mean time, I am trying to decide whether I want to try to re-create data (and source code) that I have been gathering since 1991 or just blow the whole thing off and forget about it.

EDIT: Roman, if I do pick back up, the conversion pgm will convert the map to Civ2.

[This message has been edited by skorpion59 (edited February 05, 2001).]

OmniGod · February 5, 2001, 18:33

Okay I'll break down the direction that I'm heading. I have a global satellite image (10800x5400 resized), I have the dataset for the global land cover (unable to open) and Global Land One-km Base Elevation (GLOBE) Project (10800x5400 resized). I would like to take the GLOBE data and put it into Wilbur to get the slope info so that when the elevation changes then hills or mountians can be placed. The land cover will be for types of other tiles to place (jungle, grass.. etc.) and the satellite is to confirm the final product. I guess I could eyeball the whole thing but I want to be accurate. Is this not the way I should be heading? Input is always valued.

Back to the Land cover data (Plate Carree 1km map). I know it's larger than the memory and size allowed for photoshop. Is there anyway to break it into pieces and proceed? I openned it as 10800x5400 and recoloured it getting a nice view I think of 90N to about 60N and 180W to 90W. This is good but I need the rest. Any ideas?

EDIT: I got part of the ground cover map openned at 21600x10800 and this is a zoomed image

the second image is the satellite image of approx the same area which I will use for comparison to data in the ground cover.

[This message has been edited by OmniGod (edited February 05, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by OmniGod (edited February 05, 2001).]

Roman · February 6, 2001, 01:57

Omnigod, fantastic work!! Do you also plan to create such a map for civ 2 or civ 3.

skorpion59 · February 6, 2001, 15:32

I haven't even looked at Wilbur yet. I will do that to see what can be done.

On the Plate Carree 1km map, can you save the whole jpg pic from the web page and blow it up to see the parts you are missing? Putting pics together is easy, taking them apart is another story. Possibly, Hex Editing the file will show where it can be broken apart but I'm not counting on it.

OmniGod · February 6, 2001, 20:41

1 quick question. How would you, if it's at all possible open a file say 43200x21600 as a smaller file. Is there a way to have photoshop or anyother program cutout every other column in the dataset, or is the only alternative as you pointed out to save the image (under 1000x1000) and blow it up to fit the spaces. I did just have a thought since in Wilbur there is an option to start in a location other than 0,0 would this allow me to open another section of the map without openning the whole thing. Salvius, have you tried anything like that? If so, does it work that way and how would I go about doing it. This is more of a brainstorm at the moment since I'm off to clinic in a moment. Definately would be interested if this were possible.... Don you don't happen to have the colour legend for the Ground Cover map do you? Since this is your first view of it I doubt it but I just wanted to check base on it, since I can't find it anywhere and I would love to know exactly what the makers thought each colour represented. I could work through it but it would be a guess more than an exact science. And as people might notice by now, I like to be absolutely accurate.

One final note to Salvius, I tried to open the GLOBAL set piece by piece into Wilbur and ran the slope function getting a slope map. BUT there were too many lines to be of any real use. How do you limit the number of slope lines created and how can you determine what the minimum elevation change will result in a slope line, since I think that I only want changes when it changes more than say 250, 2500, 5000 meters. If you can help a poor guy out with this it would be appreciated.

And to think I was going to complete a map without truely considering all this extra data a week ago.

Salvius · February 7, 2001, 03:26

I haven't tried using Wilbur to open pieces of maps, so I don't know if it would work or not. I think the author of the program was more concerned with being able to piece together several files into one, since most of the USGS data is divided into quadrangles or other chunks.

For slope maps, I believe what it does is considers black to be 0 elevation change, white to be whatever the maximum elevation change in the map is, and scales everything else to the other 254 shades in between. Although, come to think of it, when you tell it to produce a slope map, it does ask if you want to use the full range (or something like that), so it may be that there's a way to get it to use absolute slope values. You might try asking on the Wilbur mailing list, or emailing the author directly. He seems like he's always willing to answer questions.

skorpion59 · February 7, 2001, 17:35

No, unfortunately I don't have the Color Legend for the Plate Carree file or know how to break the big file into smaller files. Heck I can't even open a file in Wilbur.

I have other programs to read the file but they keep saying the file is invalid. I have D/L'd it a few times and it is always the same. So... I am getting files which are in different formats now. (I am D/L'ing a 933M .bzq ground cover file now.) The following 2 pages are helpful and I am sure a way around this can be achieved. That is, once I understand everything better.

GIS, 3D and Imagery Tools, http://www.grime.net/gistools/
GIS, 3D and Imagery Formats, http://www.grime.net/gistools/a-z.htm

OmniGod · February 17, 2001, 03:06

Well I've given up on Wilbur for the slope map, so I hope everyone will be happy with the general "this area is higher than the surround" for hills and such. Since I'm in the middle of finals at the moment, it's moving slowly but I did have a huge break-through today with finding a site that has the Globalland cover data in Platte-Carre projection with the data split into continents with the same overall 43200 size... I'll have to scale to half the size. Another thing in my searches I came across a webhoster that will allow me to upload a gig of data so I may be able to share the final map at 21600x10800 with anyone who wants it but I'll try a smaller 10800x5400 for the db when it's complete...

Okay back to the original question. Harlan is there anyway to add different terrain data (ie add a colour to the bmp2ctp2 program to code for another terrain type?) This would be huge since you were talking about a rich map and not so rich map. I've got the data now. The question is can I use the data to my benefit or do I just make the not so rich map and leave it at that. The data is split into 13 terrain types + any ocean types that I can find in the next round of searches. Hopefully the answer is yes?

Rich - the exhausted.

EDIT: This is the landcover set that went with the map I ended up getting.

0 WATER (and Goode's interrupted space)
1 EVERGREEN NEEDLELEAF FOREST
2 EVERGREEN BROADLEAF FOREST
3 DECIDUOUS NEEDLELEAF FOREST
4 DECIDUOUS BROADLEAF FOREST
5 MIXED FOREST
6 WOODLAND
7 WOODED GRASSLAND
8 CLOSED SHRUBLAND
9 OPEN SHRUBLAND
10 GRASSLAND
11 CROPLAND
12 BARE GROUND
13 URBAN AND BUILT-UP

I would like to expand the bare ground into tundra, glacier, desert and maybe remove the urban build up, but it is a good guide for city placement (scenario builders dream come true), expand the water with a another mapset from the oceanographers maybe 5 types or 7 types there and maybe 4 levels of mountains. That would be a total approx 20-30 tile types. I think that would cover most types of land cover in the world today. Can anyone think of anymore types that I should look into when I set this up? The idea of terrain_improvements of trees would be a post map making thing but could work really well with this map since you could x-reference the type of trees in that area fairly easy, unless there is away to have the bmp2ctp2 program add tile improvements based on colour combinations? I think that I'm jumping the gun right now, but definately give me some ideas as I paste together the datasets.
[This message has been edited by OmniGod (edited February 17, 2001).]

Grandpa Troll · February 17, 2001, 22:54

Up to this point I felt so proud of myself ..a 41 year old who up to 4 years ago had never touched a computer, then i started to dabble in modifications..I have built several private use maps..for my liking...and am so proud of them!

Then I open this topic up and see..I am by no means CLOSE to what you guys are doing!

BTW...I congratulate you and am just in awe of your talents!

Keep up the great work fellas!
I really like the Map that was posted by Salvius.

Keep up the great work and as allways..I am no threat in yet another area of Modification!..MAP GENERATION!!!

LOL

Thanks for all the Hard work Folks!

We in the community really appreciate it!

Troll

The Forum Fur Flyer

Darkknight · February 17, 2001, 23:11

TROLL: sounds like me a bit I only really started modding with CTP2, a bit with civ2 and SMAC but still.
I think i'm doing good then I see what other people like Omnigod and Dale are doing arggh! I dont know a thing about slic.

PS: Mark i've mailed you about 10 times about this, I think you should get another ModEditor who knows something about slic.I dont have time with exams coming up.

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" mind over body "

Roman · February 24, 2001, 09:26

When is this coming, Omni, I can't wait.

I must reiterate: A stunningly good job!

OmniGod · February 25, 2001, 01:36

It's coming... also checked with Firaxis if they wanted a copy