Modern Scenario

kormer · January 14, 2001, 22:41

I'm working on a modern scenario right now. I'm planning for it to be a behemoth. I would like to use omnigods world map, but I also want more than the usual 8 civs to use. If anyone has comments or suggestions go ahead and let me know. I'm going through and adding cities right now. First topic of debate, should I include several european nations that are allied, or include them all as 1 nation, the europian union. If I can get more civs added to omnigods world map I may try doing a limited modern mod with modern nations, IE, add Iran instead of persia.

jkadabomb · January 14, 2001, 23:00

Can you make it like the Civ2 ,21st century scenario? That was my most scenario of all time. Make sure you have India as an independent civilization.

Chris B · January 14, 2001, 23:14

What about alliances, such as NATO, for instance??

kormer · January 14, 2001, 23:30

jkadabomb, I'll have to experiment around with the number of nations I can have. With a 700mhz athlon playing the 28 civ map palpatine made takes 15 minutes a turn by the middle ages. I definately will have the india/pakistan thing in there, even if I have to reduce pakistan/iran/iraq into one large nation for the sake of gameplay.

OmniGod · January 15, 2001, 00:39

From eariler testing about a scenario such as what you are planning, there are limits to the number of civs available for a scenario start (such as Alexander). That limit is 8 civs... no more. If you started it, the number was automatically reduced to 8 civs. Unless there has been changes in the patch, which I haven't noticed or seen skorpion post on then I believe you must limit your civs to 8. There is a topic posted about the civ2 scenario and the plans that were started and are presently on hold until the end of my exams. I suggest you read that post before starting further on the project. It's better to waste 3 hours reading than 50 hours doing. Just a thought.

Scenario limits post... http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum44/HTML/000124.html
Modern Scenario post... http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum44/HTML/000141.html
Rich
[This message has been edited by OmniGod (edited January 14, 2001).]

kormer · January 15, 2001, 01:44

Omnigod, from reading that I gather there is no way to get more than 8 civs onto your map without redoing the entire thing correct? I wouldn't go with all 40 civs in my scenario, but I could do some interesting thing with a few more than 8 civs. For starters you wouldn't need to make silly alliances that wouldn't make sense in real life. An african alliance would in the long run be too powerfull. On the other hand, 2 african nations, with say a muslim nation in control of north africa would be very realistic. Maybe even add in a barbarian city or 2 in the middle of africa to simulate the constant civil wars going on.

kormer · January 15, 2001, 02:48

Ok omnigod I finally got it figured out after playing around with the editor for a while. Save your entire map as one big clip. Then, start a new game on a random map with how ever many players you want, 15, 20, 28, and go into cheat mode and load the clip. Now you will have your map with more than 8 players.

jkadabomb · January 15, 2001, 15:26

Well just make it like the 21st century Civ2 scenario, worked fine with 8 Civs. Here is my suggestion, European Union, NATO(Balkin countries), China, Russia, Africa as one nation(maybe add lots of barbarians in there continent since they fight alot), South America, etc. I do see a couple of problems however, It would be hard to make small but powerful countries like Japan and Isreal decent since they only make up a small area. Maybe make Isreal and Japan both have 2 cities with Japan having tons of improvements in there city and make Isreal have tons of Powerful military units right outside there cities since each city can only hold twelve units. Also I dont know what you should do about totally insignificant yet large countries like Canada and Mexico. How bout combining North America as one and Mexico with South America? Also maybe adding a Taliban Civ by the middle east, and a Former Soviet Union for those countries that are no longer with Russia. It would be nice if you could get about 20 civs on the map, each with UNIQUE units for their country. Of course I am probably asking for too much but I am really look forward to this scenario. If you cant really add any more Civs then 8, I say just do it exactly like the 21st century Civ2 scenario. I dont think my comp will have a problem with 20 civs however

Here Are my specs:

I got Atholon 900mhz
256mb pc133 ram
40gig 7200rpm ata100 hard drive
32mb geforce2 mx vid card.

jkadabomb · January 15, 2001, 15:30

Oh Ya, are you starting the scenario from back when CTP2 normal game starts? Or are you going to make it just a modern age scenario with each turn taking up about 1 month??? That would be really cool.

Basileus of the Romans · January 15, 2001, 16:46

You must keep in mind not to create a power vaccum in the areas of the world. Each nation must have some borderin countires to make the player's think of possible diplomatic and military reprocussions.

Example.

Say that you added the cities that make up Canada to the American civ. A player that wanted the Canadian cities would be loathe to attack a military and economic behemoth like the United States, but might consider it if Canada was a seperate nation.

Likewise with Europe.

Let us say that the player controlled the United States, and needed European support. The Britsh, for example, tend to get along with the Americans, as do the Germans. The Americans do not get along well with the French, and the British do not get along well with the Spanish. Europe should perhaps be divided into nations.

Each "power bloc" should be broken up into at least 3 different nations. With a maxium of 40 nations availalbe at your disposal, I shall leave it to your imagination and creativity on which nations shall be included, but I propose the following:

The Americas:
United States (also gets military forces in Cuba, Japan, Korea, and in Europe)
Canada
Mexico
Cuba
Colombia
Brazil
Argentina

Europe:
England
France
Germany
Spain
Italy
Scandinavian States (Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Iceland)
Russia (also gets Serbia)
Baltic States (Lativa, Lithuania, Estonia)
Greece (gets Crete and maybe Cyprus)

Middle East:
Isreal
Turkey
Iraq
Iran
Saudi Arabia
Egypt
Pakistan

Africa:
South Africa
Nigeria
Kenya
Algeria
Libya
Congo

Asia:
China
India
Vietnam
Japan
South Korea
North Korea

Oceania:
Australia
New Zealand
Indonesia

All other nations not mentioned should be controlled by the "United Nations" civilization, which will be eithe rallied or at peace with most, if not all of the rest of the civs. The U.N. should be unplayable.
[This message has been edited by Basileus of the Romans (edited January 15, 2001).]

kormer · January 15, 2001, 17:01

Jkadabomb, it will be a modern age scenario starting at the dawn of the new millenium. I finally, after much tinkering, managed to get the 16 civs I wanted into omnigods world map. Here are going to be my starting civs:
1. America
2. Canada
3. Mexico/central america/carribean
4. Brazil
5. Latin Americans/peru/argintina/columbia
6. Nigerian
7. Zulus, Nigerians will control the central parts of africa, zulus will control south africa, and a muslim nation will have the mediteranean coastline. Also several barbarian cities will be in and around the congo area
8. Europe including england and mainland europe. I may put in sarejove as a barbarian civ, with nato units about to conquer it.
9. russia
10. china
11. japan, omnigods map has plenty of room for a few japanese cities, I'll start them out ahead techwise and they should be playable
12. Australia
13. indonesia/polynesia/vietnam/cambodia that whole region of southeast asia
14. India
15. Muslim nations of iran/iraq/pakistan, maybe I might add in kazikstan even though they wouldn't belong. Basicly this is the "bad boy" civ
16. "good guy" muslim civ, egyptians, saudi arabia, kuwait, also I'm giving them all of north africa to morroco since that area is mostly muslim.

I'm going to try hard not to make this an american-centric scenario where you win no matter what if you play the americans.

For tile improvements I will be giving most everyone advanced mines/farms/etc, with an exception or 2, I may give japan hydroponic farms and heavily develope their lands compared to others.

Units will be mostly modern era units. The US will start out with a stealth fighter/bomber or 2, but mostly interceptors. If anyone knows how to keep building interceptors after stealth has been discovered please tell me. I'm thinking I would like to make stealth units prohibitively expensive to build, so that having 1-2 would be nice, but you can't have an entire fleet of them. Settlers WILL BE BANNED, this will prevent certain civs such as china and russia from over expanding, ie, there is lots of land in siberia, but none of it is developed and I would like to keep it that way.

Gametime will increment in months, and techs and building time will also be slowed down.

Right now all my planning is just about done, main concepts are in place so I've begun placing cities around the globe. I have a bunch of cool ideas I would like to do with slic so I'll probably ask for a volunteer to help me out later in the project. Also if anyone has any images for modern age units I might be able to implement that would also be awesome.

kormer · January 15, 2001, 17:31

Basileus of the Romans,

I did think of your ideas. Last night I toyed around with the game a LOT. Basicly I found out what I had known from a game I just quit playing, the turn length increases exponentially with the number of civs. On a game with 28 civs with the world completely covered it was taking 15 minutes for each turn on a 700mhz computer. Maybe in the future with better computers and AHEM, activision, a better civ game and editor we'll play with all 100+ countries in the world.

I originally had planned on making europe seperate countries, but with the EU it makes sense now to group them into one country. I have some cool ideas I would like implemented with slic there. For example, if you play the EU and don't meet certain economic or scientific goals within 10 years, a random country will break off and go on its own way. Just imagine you are playing and you get a message, "The people of France have grown tired of your petty wars and stagnant economy and have decided to leave the union."

As for your ideas about combining certain countries to prevent wars, thats a job for the guys reprogramming the AI. I will be starting out certain countries allied. Maybe someone could add something to the ai so when deciding to declare war on say, canada, they would also check the strength of canadas allies. Also keep in mind I am trying to keep america from being a superpower even though they are for the sake of gameplay.

jkadabomb · January 15, 2001, 20:42

Will all the Civs be playable? I look foward to playing India. I could care less about playing the other Civs. Also what about Isreal?? Isreal is something extremely major you left out. When do you not here about Isreal in the world news? It would be interesting to see how a scenario with this played out in the mid east. Set all the mid east countries to extreme hate with Isreal and vice versa but not war. I really cant wait to see this scenario, especially with the Diplo/Frenzy Mod coming out soon. Oh ya, one more thing kormer, do you plan on adding any new units to the mod? Are you going to revise the tech tree any? I like how things look kormer, good job.

kormer · January 15, 2001, 21:16

Jkadabomb,
Isreal I'm not sure what to do with. In the world map I'm using there is only room enough for 1 city in israel, and that would be crunched in. There is no way it could be a seperate country. I maybe put in jerusalem and give that to USA.

As for the tech tree, there are loads of things I would like to do with that. I want a cruise missle that destroys buildings, a long range icbm warhead that costs a ton to build. Then I could put a barbarian city in north korea and just have it crank those out. If you are playing USA then you need to stop korea in 10, 15 turns or else... I would like to add a low cost low maintenence conscript unit. If you know how to add units, techs or whatever go ahead and make a mod, I will gladly include it in my scenario.

I'm nearly done placing all the cities. Soon as thats done(tonight hopefully) I will post it for you.

jkadabomb · January 15, 2001, 21:52

For Isreal, I dont know if this will work but how bout just making to cities? and then add TONS AND TONS AND TONS of military units surrounding and also do all the best tile improvements around it. Isreal is very small and doesnt really have any allies, not even the US is fit to own it. I think it is more feasable to add Isreal to the EU. Heck bible prophesy says that the Prince Of peace that unites the world will come from European Union and make there throne in Isreal when they bring world peace for 7 years(pls lets not discuss this), so I think Isreal should be with EU.

jkadabomb · January 15, 2001, 21:53

Oh ya, one more thing, I realllly would like to know if all the Civs are playable? I really want to play as India.

jkadabomb · January 15, 2001, 21:58

And yet another request, make sure that all the nations with nukes get them in your scenario. It would be really fun to have a nuclear standoff with places like North Korea, Russia, and China. Off course give the most missles to Russia, second most to US, Give India very few etc. Maybe even starting your scenario with ICBMs in the beginning would be realistic since we have had icbms for several years. Giving US and Russia icbms, china and India regular nukes sounds realistic. Also France and Britian would need nukes. How bout adding chemical missiles and biological missiles? Russia will need to start out with lots of Bio missiles and Middle East needs the chemical weapons. Just more suggestions

OmniGod · January 15, 2001, 21:58

Just in response to the ability to play any civ. Because of the limitations of the scenario section, as proof of Activisions WWII scenario. To redo a start for each civ mean making a scenario for each civ. That was the stopping point behind the previous modern scenario. If there is a solution to this, please by all means tell me... I'd love to know and start creating some scenarios. Ideas I have plenty but limitations make me not want to do it...

rich

BTW: who are you making player1 in the present state?
[This message has been edited by OmniGod (edited January 15, 2001).]

kormer · January 15, 2001, 22:26

Every nation included in my scenario will be playable. Omnigod, I have no idea how I did it. I was up late late late last night just trying anything I could to be able to have more than 8 civs using your map. Eventually I think I cut out your entire map, saved it as a clip, then started a random game with 17 nations, pasted your clip in and that worked. There was more to it than that though...

As for israel, just giving them masses of troops won't help. With only 1 city they will fall behind too quickly in technology. Not to mention the upkeep would be more than 1 city could aford. Right now the US sends aid money to them, and shares quite a bit of military as well as civilian technology with them. Adding them to the US or EU would seem reasonable, the only other option would be giving all of israel to the palestinians...

Nukes, I can rest assure you that there will be plenty of nukes to go around. I may even throw in a terrorist or 2 for the "bad boy" muslim nation.

OmniGod · January 16, 2001, 00:01

To have the ability to place more than eight civs is actually an easy process... you export the map, exit ctp2 and change the number of civs to what you want, reenter the editor and import the map you just exported (or go to my site and ddl the txt version of the maps). You can then place whatever number of civs you choose based on what your userprofile.txt settings are. If you don't mind. Could I get a pre-advanced copy to test the things that are bothering me, and I'll provide you with feedback on them. And if the problems that have plagued everyone else have been solved by you... I want and need to know how and why so that other scenario creators can bypass the problems that erupted last December.

Thanks
Rich
rsaari@alumni.uwaterloo.ca

magma12 · January 16, 2001, 03:28

kormer, look like you just ignore Thai

Hope you might
change your mind and add Thai in the game. :;

kormer · January 16, 2001, 12:00

Give me the name of a major city there and I'll add it next to calcutta. Would it make more sense to give it to India, or the southeast asia civ?

OmniGod · January 16, 2001, 12:59

Okay.. I just openned it as the Canadians. We need to talk... city placements and spelling are, how you say, just a tad off... and there is a lack of land included as Canadian. The whole northern islands excluding Greenland, aswell as the eastern most island of Newfoundland... is Canadian. The other thing I noticed, there must be a better way to expand borders without the ugly mess of fortresses being in odd locations where no such thing exists... I'm going to change a few of the Canadian cities, take a look around and email you the changes for your evaluation.

Rich - seems to start okay. I need to know how now

kormer · January 16, 2001, 14:11

I just got done placing the rest of the african cities, and I added barbarian cities around the globe to make things interesting. I put one in columbia, 2 in central africa, belgrade, sri lanka, and one in east timor.

I'm going to go back and take a second look at canada now. Got any good maps online of canada that list cities sizes?

OmniGod · January 16, 2001, 14:18

Nice site for urban area populations of the world.
http://www.citypopulation.de/Country...+Kanada$Canada

Rich

kormer · January 16, 2001, 15:12

Thanks for the site, its much better than the one I was using. There are some other countries I may have to go back an do-over with the better info I have now. I rearanged all the canadian cities to be more acurate. As a down side there is less room for them to grow now.

I'm going to add wonders now. Should ancient era wonders be in the game? I probably will put them in there. Also, I'm going to give kuala lumpor the empire state building. They now have the tallest building in the world, and it being their first wonder will signify their becoming a world power. Maybe if I can get graphics I'll rename the wonder later.

skorpion59 · January 16, 2001, 17:32

Omni,
Are you telling me you can play this map as ANY of the Civs and it works with more than 8 Civs?

Kormer,
Please email me a copy, email icon above this post, so I can see what is different about this map.

Dale · January 16, 2001, 18:00

I hope you do a lot better than Activision did for the placement of Australia's first settler. For god's sake, they put the thing where Darwin is!!!!!!!!

------------------
Rommell to a sub-commander outside Tobruk: "Those Australians are in there somewhere. But where? Let's advance and wait till they shoot, then shoot back."

kormer · January 16, 2001, 18:20

Dale, skorpion. If you check omnigods website under scenarios you can check out a pre-alpha version of the scenario. That one only has the cities placed and nothing else. Since then I've changed placement of a bunch of cities, added techs, governments, and now I'm doing city improvements.

OmniGod · January 16, 2001, 22:25

Skorpion, I've tried a few of the civs and not a problem being any of them. There are no units in the alpha map yet, which might play a part in the default to player1.... I don't know yet. There's nothing different about this map to my released map... I'm baffled. But what if the clipping of the map had something to do with it... but that should be no different than importing a map... I don't know. Kormer can you give a detailed description how you made the map from the original map..

Rich