The Medieval Pack II Beta: The Gathering - Page 7

alley_cat · March 31, 2001, 08:38

I almost have the next version of the GL ready. This version icludes fixed improvements, units (excpet some sections in the units. The only fixed part is the prerequisite section, that is the main section that actually changed) and a lot of bug fixes (many thanks to Timeline). It isn't ready though because I still have some problems with it that I need Wes online in order to consult him regarding to them.
Lets hope he will get online soon...

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Let people hear what they want to hear

alley_cat · April 1, 2001, 05:51

Well, I hope everybody are alive and breathing after this long Apolyton crash. I had to use many tricks in order to enter the forum and past this message. So lets all be happy that it is working again...

Starfighter08 · April 1, 2001, 07:12

It's me again about future govs. Researching Solar Power takes 12 turns for Communism and 22 for Virtual Democracy. Am I the only one who finds that weird?

walkerjonny · April 1, 2001, 19:02

Starfighter: (and some others, too)

About why science slows down:

Science is taken out of the gold reserves of your nation.

City Gold Production
+ Trade Gold Production
---------------------------
National Gold Production

National Gold Production
- City Improvements Upkeep
- Military Upkeep
---------------------------
Economized Gold
- Wages & Criminal Loss
---------------------------
National Gold Reserve

With the Science Percentage Control you are deciding how many percent of the Reserve you want to pay for Science

Because of the very high military cost and a higher criminal rate
is the gold reserve economized by Virt. Dem. not that high than by Comm. when you have too many military units.

You can reduce the criminal rate with proper city improvements.

Less military units will increase the gold reserve.
This is why Virt. Dem. should be used for peacefully Nations.
Military should be used only for defending not for conquering in this case.
Use it for science victory or diplomacy victory.

You can increase the City Gold Production by building proper tile improvements near the cities.

You can increase Trade Gold Broduction by building Caravans or Freight Transports and creationg Trade Routes

Wes:

I have the feeling that trading is very underweighted in this game. There should be much more goods on the maps and much more different good types.
Also the payment for Trade routes should be a bit higher.

Is there any way to add modern goods whitch are produced by the Humans in the gameplay or to use the Urban Planner, Sea Engineer and/or the Settler or special Pioneer/Engineer units to search for goods on the map?

Does someone know about how to place other icons on the different tile improvement tabs and where to place them?

Further i need to know whitch is the right TGA compression app to add own pictures to the game.

Thanks a lot for your help!

regards
Ewald
[This message has been edited by walkerjonny (edited April 01, 2001).]

Starfighter08 · April 2, 2001, 15:04

Walkerjonny thanks for your extensive explanation. Now at least I understand what is going on. Although I don't know if 2 mech. inf. units per city (35 cities) are considered more than just defensive. Lower crime rate in a communist state than in a democracy doesn't seem to reflect reality (I know that it's very difficult to get reliable numbers of crime rate in communist states). Again thanks for your explanation.

alley_cat · April 2, 2001, 15:27

quote:

Lower crime rate in a communist state than in a democracy doesn't seem to reflect reality (I know that it's very difficult to get reliable numbers of crime rate in communist states)

Do you know history? Stalin, using his terror killed many many people who actually did nothing. He was paranoid (actually, the number of people killed because of him exceeds any figure you can make up in your mind). All of that made the U.S.S.R VERY efficient during Stalin's reign and there was almost no crime (although a great price was paid).
This was only general history

. Hope you arent offended
[This message has been edited by alley_cat (edited April 03, 2001).]

Timeline · April 2, 2001, 23:35

Hello, I am back (finally). It took me forever to figure out how to get here. Apolyton changed the URL to this site (Duh Timeline, he he).

quote:

Originally posted by WesW on 03-30-2001 10:23 PM
If you have the latest advances chart, you can see that the Info age extends until 2040, and that it shares the third-to-last column with the Genetic age. This means that War Walkers can come as late as 2040 in the timeline. This is still too early, and I would rather have a sprite like the Paladin being developed by the US Army, but I have to go with the sprites I have.

Wes, when you get back: Okay, I understand, nothing you can do I guess.

Hey, I know this is getting off topic but, what is the "Paladin"? It sounds very cool.

quote:

I may push the Fascist sprite back to the Mech. Inf. unit, and use one of the Ctp1 infantry sprites for the Stormtrooper. The Marine or Paratrooper would be the choices.

Are you saying you want to replace the (perfect) Mech. Inf. Sprite with the Fascist?! Agh!! You like that sprite, don't you?

I say keep the (perfect) sprite you have now for the Mech. Inf. - Replace the Stormtrooper sprite with either the CTP1 Paratrooper or Marine (I don’t know what these look like), and, here is my favorite part, DITCH THE FASCIST SPRITE he he

. Anyone care to back me up?

Timeline

[This message has been edited by Timeline (edited April 02, 2001).]

janilxx · April 3, 2001, 01:58

Few things...

I was doing a Wonder(Pyramids) and AI made it before I got it. Then I detected that I lost all the production points I had been using for the Pyramids. I had zero points after AI completed the wonder. Is that ok?

When someone completes a wonder I will get message to my screen. I read it and close the messagewindow. But then always "Msgs" tab in the bottom of the screen is RED. And when I open Msgs tab I see that there is only that one wondermessage that I have already read. And that message is written in gray. So could that red Msgs tab be changed to regular(black)?

Establish embassy(I or AI) sound plays two times every time.

-Jani

Rhuarc · April 3, 2001, 07:02

ok, I'm not sure if these are glitches or if they are supposed to be that way, so somebody just tell me if I am wrong. After turn 180 when I build a new city it already includes in it things like granary's and city walls. I don't know if that is a glitch or not, but if it is supposed to happen like that then why don't the improvements show up in the city's inventory? They are no longer on the build list, and things like city walls show up, but they don't show up in the inventory list. Are they actually there or not? Abd is this how it is supposed to be?

Ok, second thing, when I click to build certain things the descriptions for them seem odd. For example, when I click the Hagia Sophia it says it will reduce the crime in my civ by 0%. The Great Wall will make -0% Military Readiness, and Aristotle's Lyceum will do +0% science. Are these wonders actually doing what it says they are supposed to? Or are those glitches in the description of them? If they are just errors in the descriptions that is ok, just as long as the wonders actually do something! I have only found wierd things like this dealing with the wonders and a couple of city improvements. Well, I guess that is about all for this time. Thanks guys!

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DO, OR DO NOT, THERE IS NO TRY - Yoda

janilxx · April 3, 2001, 07:13

quote:

Originally posted by Rhuarc on 04-03-2001 07:02 AM
ok, I'm not sure if these are glitches or if they are supposed to be that way, so somebody just tell me if I am wrong. After turn 180 when I build a new city it already includes in it things like granary's and city walls. I don't know if that is a glitch or not, but if it is supposed to happen like that then why don't the improvements show up in the city's inventory? They are no longer on the build list, and things like city walls show up, but they don't show up in the inventory list. Are they actually there or not? Abd is this how it is supposed to be?

Some wonders gives you a free buildings to every city. For example Stonehenge(this might be wrong wonder) gives you granary to every city and after that granary does not show up in available buildings list. But they should be visible in city inventory(in city management screen)???

quote:

Ok, second thing, when I click to build certain things the descriptions for them seem odd. For example, when I click the Hagia Sophia it says it will reduce the crime in my civ by 0%. The Great Wall will make -0% Military Readiness, and Aristotle's Lyceum will do +0% science. Are these wonders actually doing what it says they are supposed to? Or are those glitches in the description of them? If they are just errors in the descriptions that is ok, just as long as the wonders actually do something! I have only found wierd things like this dealing with the wonders and a couple of city improvements. Well, I guess that is about all for this time. Thanks guys!

Great Library(and other helpfiles if there is those) is not ok yet and those wonders should work fine. Check that xls file and read the "manual"!

-Jani

Immortal Wombat · April 3, 2001, 07:38

Timeline: I had to look it up too

The Paladin is a type of high-range artillery thats in development.

Wes: While Apolyton was down, I started making a simple, unanimated Paladin sprite, for myself really, but I realised I was making almost the same unit as Harlan had made in his WW2 pack, only he called it the German SP gun. I realise these are completely different times in history, would have slightly differetn colourings and ensigns(which don't matter in Civ), but in shape, they look almost exactly the same.

Ben

Rhuarc · April 3, 2001, 07:52

Jani

I know that some of the wonders do provide you with certain buildings in all of your cities, but I didn't think there was any wonder that automatically put city walls around your city. When I play it again tonight I'll get a full list of the buildings it automatically places in the city to see if they are being placed there by the wonders or not. Thanks a lot!

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DO, OR DO NOT, THERE IS NO TRY - Yoda

alley_cat · April 3, 2001, 08:22

quote:

ok, I'm not sure if these are glitches or if they are supposed to be that way, so somebody just tell me if I am wrong. After turn 180 when I build a new city it already includes in it things like granary's and city walls. I don't know if that is a glitch or not, but if it is supposed to happen like that then why don't the improvements show up in the city's inventory? They are no longer on the build list, and things like city walls show up, but they don't show up in the inventory list. Are they actually there or not? Abd is this how it is supposed to be?

It looks like you build this city with an Urban Planner that gives you a few improvements when you build the city

quote:

Ok, second thing, when I click to build certain things the descriptions for them seem odd. For example, when I click the Hagia Sophia it says it will reduce the crime in my civ by 0%. The Great Wall will make -0% Military Readiness, and Aristotle's Lyceum will do +0% science. Are these wonders actually doing what it says they are supposed to? Or are those glitches in the description of them? If they are just errors in the descriptions that is ok, just as long as the wonders actually do something! I have only found wierd things like this dealing with the wonders and a couple of city improvements.

If you read all the readmes (and the forum espacially) you would know that these things are not ready yet in the GL. I'm working on the GL and I fixed these kind of stuff, sent it to Wes, and the next build of the Mod should include the fixed GL.

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Let people hear what they want to hear

Rhuarc · April 3, 2001, 08:31

Alley_cat,

I built my cities with the regular settler, but I'll check tonight and make sure that something weird is actually happening and it isn't just my imagination. Sorry about the question wiht the GL, I thought Wes had already updated the texts.zip file with your updates, so that was why I was wondering. Sorry bout the mix up!

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DO, OR DO NOT, THERE IS NO TRY - Yoda

alley_cat · April 3, 2001, 08:41

quote:

Sorry about the question wiht the GL, I thought Wes had already updated the texts.zip file with your updates, so that was why I was wondering.

If you checked, you will see that in one of my preveious posts I told that the new build I sent to Wes (that was included in the latest texts.zip) only contained updated Advances, thats all

Rhuarc · April 3, 2001, 09:13

Sorry about that Alleycat. Guess I should have looked a little closer!

Thanks for your help!

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DO, OR DO NOT, THERE IS NO TRY - Yoda

Pintello · April 3, 2001, 10:15

Hi All,

Actually the Great Wall now gives you a wall in every city until it expires, along with the barbarian advantage. That is listed in the spread sheets Wes has so kindly provided us.

Timothy Pintello

Rhuarc · April 3, 2001, 10:22

Thanks Pintello,
That helps out a lot! One question, what are the names of the spreadsheets that have all this info in them? Is there only one or are there different ones for units wonders and advances? Thanks for all your help guys!

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DO, OR DO NOT, THERE IS NO TRY - Yoda

David Murray · April 3, 2001, 13:25

I wonder which direction the MedMod is headed in. I played again yesterday. I found that the AI was sending nobles out even as early as 3600, and that's when I decided to uninstall CTP2. The early period should be a period of war, unrest and civilization building--not diplomacy. The AI is even less aggressive than it was--at least before it explored with units and had a distrustful stance towards others in the beginning, but now, thanks to the Mod, it can participate in advanced diplomacy right from the very start. This simply isn't realistic. If it were a bug, I would keep supporting this Mod, but it seems like it's a gameplay feature.

While I support all the hard work put into the Mod, all the lovely units and revamped tech tree, I just don't like some of the other ideas, like Militias and nobles, and some of the other small tweaks.

Oh well. Perhaps I will work on my *own* Mod. :-) (Hahaha...yeah right....)

Rhuarc · April 3, 2001, 13:45

What direction would you rather it head? The whole point behind the civ series is that you can remake history how you want it to be. If you would rather be warlike in the beginning game that is up to you, but the game needs to stay open ended enough for other style players to enjoy it too. What is so unrealistic about the militia trigger? Is it unrealistic to thinkt hat if somebody was attacking your town you would fight back? Of course not! That's the whole idea behind the militia is that the people of the town will fight back. Sorry, and I don't mean to offend you in anyway, but it just sounds to me like you would rather the civ series turn into something like C&C. There's nothing wrong with that style game it just wasn't what civ was meant to be. Well, now that I told you what I think feel free to tell me what you think! (should I hold my ears?)

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DO, OR DO NOT, THERE IS NO TRY - Yoda

alley_cat · April 3, 2001, 13:55

Well said Rhuarc!!
but I think that I can see some of point: Theoretically, when a tribe was just created somewhere in the far past, it didn't try to negotiate with other tribes simply because it didn't know of their exsistance. It will usually see them hostile and try to attack them, just like a pack of wolves attacking another pack if they enter their territory. so I do think that the noble thing should come just a tiny bit later. Other than that you were 100% right!

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Let people hear what they want to hear

Rhuarc · April 3, 2001, 14:00

You are probably right about the Noble, aleey_cat. Now that I think about it I guess I hadn't really thought of the Noble so much as the Militia when I said that. But I guess we are all entitled to our own opinions on the way a game such as this should go. So no hard feelings David?

Alley_cat,

If you would like any help in the GL stuff I would be more than happy to help you out. I would have some learning to do, but then that is half of the fun!

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DO, OR DO NOT, THERE IS NO TRY - Yoda

Immortal Wombat · April 3, 2001, 14:04

Dave, read the thread below this one, about Chris B's mod.
There are many different gaming experiences, and Wes' MedMod, though probably the most important for some people, is the wrong choice for others. I'm sure there will be mods a-plenty, and uninstalling on the basis of one mod you disagree with, is in my opinion a grave mistake.

Keep playing, or at least keep up with what others are doing to improve the game in other ways.

alley_cat · April 3, 2001, 14:56

quote:

If you would like any help in the GL stuff I would be more than happy to help you out

Sorry to spoil you fun Rhuarc, but the GL is already complete and any further bug fixes to it will be done by Wes (although I insisted that I will do it). Maybe Wes will give me some other job as I specifically told him I want one, and than you will be able to help me.
Stay in touch...

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Let people hear what they want to hear

Rhuarc · April 3, 2001, 15:44

quote:

Originally posted by alley_cat on 04-03-2001 02:56 PM
Sorry to spoil you fun Rhuarc, but the GL is already complete and any further bug fixes to it will be done by Wes (although I insisted that I will do it). Maybe Wes will give me some other job as I specifically told him I want one, and than you will be able to help me.
Stay in touch...

That would be great. Just let me know. Wes, the same goes for you, if you ever need any grunt work done I would more than glad to help you out!

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DO, OR DO NOT, THERE IS NO TRY - Yoda

Rhuarc · April 3, 2001, 15:45

quote:

Originally posted by alley_cat on 04-03-2001 02:56 PM
Sorry to spoil you fun Rhuarc, but the GL is already complete and any further bug fixes to it will be done by Wes (although I insisted that I will do it). Maybe Wes will give me some other job as I specifically told him I want one, and than you will be able to help me.
Stay in touch...

That would be great. Just let me know. Wes, the same goes for you, if you ever need any grunt work done I would more than glad to help you out!

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DO, OR DO NOT, THERE IS NO TRY - Yoda

WesW · April 3, 2001, 16:18

Ok, I am finally getting back here, along with everyone else it seems. A few things from earlier posts:
Some of you are confusing gold and commerce. The post that jonnywalker made was mostly correct if you substitute the word "commerce" for "gold". Unit upkeep comes out of production, not gold or commerce, so his theory was wrong about the governments. I looked over the stats for Communism and Virt-dem, and the only thing I can find to account for the drop in science is wages. Wages are 3 under Communism, and 7 under VD, so you lose 4 commerce for every pop you have, which can be several hundred in the late game.
Btw, I have totally re-done the government GL, so that you see actual numbers for the governments instead of "low", "high", etc. There are more categories shown, and the numbers you see are for the most important stats, too.
The GL at this point is mostly done. I am waiting on some gameplay and historical files from Charles, but the original game items all have the correct requirements and stats listed. Things like terrain, tile improvements and advances are completely done. This makes it much easier to keep up with things. I hated having to look things up in the xls too, but it's all you have in the beginning. There is still a lot of new commentary in the xls that you need to read, and the advances chart will always be critical.

I still see that half the things posted here that have people confused are explained in the various readmes. At least consult them before spending time posting here. It will save you time and effort.

I have already removed the old mech. inf. sprite. It was a sprite of an early tank, and was not similar to any true troop-carrying vehicle. I also checked out the WWII sprites mentioned for the Paladin, and they just look too old for the Information age unit. We really need someone with graphics expertise to step up and make a couple of units, since Morgoth has been bogged down with work. I need a couple of units that I know he will not be able to get to before we are ready to go public, and I will not hold up the public release because of an inappropriate unit among the 150 or so in the game.

Just to address David "Warmonger" Murray, it is very easy to take things out of the mod- it's getting them in that is a b1tch. I would encourage people to make their own variations of the mod once it goes public. The more experimenting people do, the better the game will become.

Be careful what you wish for as far as the GL. It has a very steep learning curve, as Alley Cat has found out. Those of you who have not delved into the innards of the mod probably don't realize how many *thousands* of lines of code have been changed or made from scratch. There are probably a couple of thousand in the units text alone. All of this stuff has to be tied together, and much of it shows up in the game through the GL.
The work Charles (Diodorus Sicilis) has made for the gameplay and historical files would take an hour to read. It is outstanding work, btw, for those of you at all interested in history, and I doubt few civers are uninterested in history. I said that the Medpack I was worth downloading just for the historical gls John LaMaitre made, and Charles' work is at least as good. One thing I may do before the public release is make a short readme on the creators, so that you can all see the quality of the people who have contributed to the mod.

I am going to wait until I hear from Locutus regarding debugging the militia code before deciding when to post the next update. When I do, I will start another thread (I can't believe how fast this one has grown in the last week). I am still waiting for things to come in from most everyone helping out on the mod, but we are finishing up in most cases, and then it will be play-testing to check for bugs and enhance gameflow and AI behavior.

April 4, 2001, 00:23

I need help. I'm in the year 1290AD. Every time I touch the build manager button the game crash w/unable to find the file UPUP 117L. The message will stay up for more than 3 to 4 times and then most of the time crash w/CTP 2 caused an invalid page fault in module CTP2.exe at 0187:00608899 plus 0187:00442707. Once in-a-while it will aloud me to continual the game. I'm using the March 27 upgrade.

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Rhuarc · April 4, 2001, 00:45

Nevermind, sorry to bug you guys, I found the spreadsheets, they are a lot of help. Thanks.

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DO, OR DO NOT, THERE IS NO TRY - Yoda

janilxx · April 4, 2001, 01:49

My opinions:

Someone said that noble is available too early. I think he might be right. Now there is only few turns to play without nobles and in that time you usually don't even see other players.

And about the AIs' love all AIs I discussed earlier. I just want to say that the situation where AI either loves other AI or hates him is not a good situation. There have to be other possible situations too like AI is neutral against other AI etc.

And I last said that establish embassy sound comes allways two times. I am not sure anymore

I have some problems with my soundcard(sometimes when I start up my computer soundcard is not working at all) and that two time sound bug might be only my(or my soundcard's) problem .

-Jani