The Medieval Pack II Beta: The Gathering (Part 2)

[Locutus]

Did anyone actually try out the new update yet? I'm getting the impression I forgot one messagebox when I sent the code for detecting war strategies to Wes, but oddly enough noone complained so far... Anyway, if there are any problems, you can solve them by adding the following lines at the top of MM2_SLC_Wouter.slc:

Messagebox 'MM2_GotHere' {
	Text(ID_MM2_GOT_HERE);
}

I'm still working on the other triggers, there are some (hopefully) minor bugs in them and some other stuff came up but should be done sometime this weekend.

I will do some more testing with the AI files this weekend too, the new settings sound like they could make a big difference.

Thanks for fixing the URL to my webpage, Jani, I wondered why it took so long to load when I checked it but the address looked fine and I didn't have time to look into it at the time.

Timeline & Wes, IIRC the Brokerage isn't supposed to show up in your inventory, only the effect of the Brokerage will be visible. If the gold output of all your cities increases with about 30% you know it works.

Wes, as any nerd should , I know all about chmod (the command with which you set permissions), but I don't know exactly what you mean by 'octal'. But if Don or Markos & Dan can't help you out I'm not sure if I could help though, esp. not since I don't know the first thing about the Apolyton file server.

Well, actually I'm not sure what those settings do but changing them (to something very similar what you have) did improve the map. I also made the following changes:

FORESTWET 15
GRASSWET 60 # was 50, WS (2001-5-18)
PLAINSWET 20 # was 30, WS (2001-5-18)
DESERTWET 0
# This leaves 5 for swamp. was 10, WS (2001-5-18)

And I changed the map-settings in the new game screen so that I had maximum diversity. The amount of swamp that disappeared wasn't even all that enourmous but what was much more important to me is that it wasn't there in such big chunks anymore but much more spread out over the entire map. If you want to reduce the amount of swamp further, I'd suggest increasing the amount of grass or plains in the above settings and possibly in the settings you mentioned too. I have no idea what the limitations of those settings are either, but I suggest using some extremely high or low values for grass and possibly forest and see how that affects the map. Based on the results of that, you may be able to better judge what they do. I planned on doing this myself too at some point but I already want to try so many other things as well I have way too much ideas at the moment, can't even realize 10% of them due to lack of time

It would indeed be a good idea to see if Don has thoughts or files to share about this issue, as Peter suggests. I do know he uses fault.dll as map plug-in in userprofile.txt and for that reason I started to use it myself too.

The moment I heard of avatars I just knew you would use that pic as Avatar, Wes

[Rhuarc]

Ok, perhaps I have not played the mod enough to speak intelligently about this, but what about the Urban Planner? (Or is this unit no longer in the mod?) Should the Urban Planner be allowed to build cities in the mountains? In my opinion they should be able to, because by this era of the game technology has advanced enough to allow this.

Another question: When I build a wonder that gives me something in every city, why does that building not appear in my inventory? It dissapears from my build list though. Also, after a while the Granary suddenly re-appeared in my build list. When I clicked on it to add it to my build list it said "building started" but it doesn't appear in my list of things currently building. It is almost like there is a bug because when I click to build it automatically builds it right away. I have read all of the readme's and did not see anything referring to this topinc, so any insight you can give me would be a great help! Thanks everyone!

[Locutus]

The building doesn't appear in your inventory 'cause it's not really there! If it were there you would have to actually pay maintenance for it. The wonder only simulates it's effects, it doesn't actually create the building, or at least that's how I understand it. When the wonder obsoletes, the effect of the building no longer applies and you'll have to build the building after all to take advantage of it's effects. That's why it reappears in the build queue: so you can take atvantage of it after the wonder obsoletes too. I never actually saw that other bug you're mentioning myself, I never had any problems with Granaries after they became available again, could it be a fluke?

[MrFun]

Forgive me for posting something off-topic, but I'm desperate. Recently, I installed the official patch and Hack for Civilization: Call to Power (not Call to Power II). Then I installed We's Med Mod 4.0 pak. The game crashes now by the fourth turn.

After encountering this problem, I uninstalled CTP I again, and repeated all the patch installations, and the Mod pak installation and the same problem - crashes.

I have followed his troubleshooting readme, and still have problems.

I have been seeking help for this serious problem, and unfortunately, my thread that I originally posted in Apolyton Community section was moved to the inactive Civilization: Call to Power forum section, where no one interested is likely to read it.

I appreciate it if no one here lynches me for posting this in an irrelevant section of the forum. I would not normally do this, but Wes does not seem to have time to answer my e-mails, and I have not been able to locate the Med Mod 4.0 Public Release thread using the Archive search. Thank you for anyone's help.

[jadlakha]

Did anyone actually try out the new update yet?

I am using the newest update.

[Rhuarc]

Locutus, I understand now what you are saying, but when the Granaries reappear and you click on them to start building them does it actually add them to your build list and then build them over the next couple of turns like it is supposed to? Thanks for your help!

EDIT: misspelling!

[Pintello]

Hi Wes,

I have been using the new files from Locutus' website. So far the game seems to be working beautifully. I am not far in the game and have not had to conquer anybody yet though, so I can't speak to how well the AIs are defending themselves. However, they do not seem to be a badly hit by the Barbarians as they used to be. This may indicate better city defence.

I am using Windows 2000 and so far I have never gotten an Elite unit even though I am sure I was the first person to discover some of the prerequisite advances. It this just bad luck or is there another reason for this?

I like the new units, at least the ones I have seen. I think you have thought out the benefits of the elite units well. They are enough to make a difference but not enough to unbalance the game. Good job there.

I have a question. Has the problem of reloading slic every time you load a saved game still there, or is that not necessary anymore?

I would also like to come in on Harlan's side about archers. I like the game the way it is, but it would be nice to have two different types of ranged units progressions. Say slinger to archer to longbowman/crossbowman, musketeer for one progression. You might could drop the slinger as both slingers and archer were contemparary. You could however may slinger a really cheap ranged unit with less ranged attack value. You could maybe pair it with the Warrior.

I thing another progression of ranged units could effectively be the artillary prgression. That would be Catapult, Seige Engine, Culverin, Cannon ( know you renamed it but I can't remember what to), Artillery, Self Propelled Artillery, ATA, etc...

I think the divergent ranged progressions would be there for the following reasons. It kind of reflects history. Catapults, Seige Engines, etc. have been around for a very long time. Even the Assyrians had them. While at the same time Archers of various types have been critical to the armies of history.

Back in ancient times military personal were broken down in to 5 basic types. Hand-to-hand combat, ranged infantry (archer, slingers, etc.), calvary military types (chariots, horsemen, elephants, camels, etc. Note: Yes there was an ancient camel calvary. The Arabs used them way before they ever become Muslims.), Artillery and Seige units (The Romans were the first to actually use catapults and ballistia as artillery units agains infantry as well as seige weapons. They also invented the crossbow. They called it a Scorpia.), and finally naval units.

Another reason divergent ranged progressions should be used is because when you get right down to it, Catapults and Seige Engines have very different funtions from archers. While the Romans used Catapults and Ballistia against infantry, they were useless against infantry as soon as they got close to them. Catapults and Seige Engines are stand-off weapons kind of like very long range weapons, archers are mid-range weapons. Long- ange and mid-range are valid weapons catagories even today.

I would give both Catapults and Seige Engines really good ranged attack but make them useless for hand to hand combat. With Seige Engine being more powerful than Catapult. I would not give good defensive value to artillery till Culverin come along, possible the Elite Bombard Unit as well. It wasn't till grape shot was invented that artillery did a really good job of defending itself without the support of large infantry formation.

I would also give the archer progression a much lower ranged attack than the Catapults and Seige Engines, but I would give them decent defense, but not as good as regular infantry. One possiblity is to give the archer and the longbowman the same ranged attack, but make the longbow better at peircing armour. I I remember correctly, that is one of the values that CTP2 allows for.

Also, here is something you may not have thought about. Modern infantry is actually a progression of the ranged infantry branch of the military, not the hand-to-hand branch. True hand-to-hand combat has gradually been replaced with mid-ranged combat supplemented by hand-to-hand combat when needed. Kind of like the Longbowman formation that the English employed so effectively in the 100 Years War. If there are any true hand-to-hand combat units left in todays militaries, they would probably be the specialized Special Forces units, not the standard infantry units we see today.

Just some thoughts there Wes. I am not criticizing you decisions in anyway. Like I prefaced this entire section with, I like the Med Mod 2 just like you have created it. My suggestion is more of an idea to enhance it even further than it is a criticism of what you have done so far.

I would also like to keep the possibility of buiding cities on mountains. It is not often, but sometimes this tactic has been very critical to maintaining the integrity of my civilization. Occationally a mountain city is absolutely critical to the stretigic situation you find yourself in. I would also mention that mountain cities even in ancient times have been viable. Just look at that famous mountain top city the Incas built. From all accounts it could even support itself food wise.

Here is an idea for a new advance. Call it terracing and let it allow the construction of irrigation on mountains and hills. This may require a new spite, I don't know, but it would be an elegant solution to the whole terraform or not terraform the mountain issue. Terracing prerequisites could be stone working and engineering or something like that. You can make it pretty expensive as far as PWs go as well. Maybe two to three times the cost of a mine on a mountain or something like that.

Well, I have said too much already. I will continue to play the game and keep you up to date as I go. I don't have as much time as a used to, but I still make time for it sometimes because that is often my best form of relaxation.

Regards,

Timothy Pintello

[MrFun]

[janilxx]

Originally posted by Pintello
I have a question. Has the problem of reloading slic every time you load a saved game still there, or is that not necessary anymore?

If I do not remember wrongly that reloadslic was needed for militias(without reloadslic you did not get new militiatypes(like phalanx)). Now militias are different and reloadslic is not needed.

[Pintello]

Hi Wes,

I have now gotten more time to play your mod. It is working beautifully. The AIs seem to defend their cities pretty well. I even had one launch a counter attack against me with a stack of 7 units. Not bad I think.

The AI's stacks seem to be pretty well balanced between ranged and assault/defend units too. Both the stacks they attack with and the ones in their cities.

I did get the Elite Legion Unit my last game, so that slic seams to be working well. That Legion Unit really rocks Wes. I like it. It has good defend and attack values and it is a flanker. I think it models the capabilities of the Roman Legion very well.

Janilxx,

Thanks for the information about reloadslic.

That is all for now.

Timothy Pintello

[preacherman]

Wes, Started playing new mod, seem ok I am in the industiral age and have never seen a elite units ether mine or Ai's. so not sure it is working. I am playing hard level, 8 civs, reguler map. I started on a small continent with one other civ. He died by the 20 turn. One trouble I had is that 1/3 of my land was tundra or glacier. I had three goods on that cost line that I could not use. because 1) could not build roads to them 2) There is no production with that type of land and water. I would sugest that we be able to build roads on both and railroads on tundra. also that drilling platforms be able to be put on ice. The north Slope is more ice then anything eles and we are pulling most of our oil from there.

Science wise I was able to keep up with the Ais by stealing it till I got my science up to speed.

I like the idea of a Terracing tech, I have found times that I need to build on a mountain weather for strategic or economically reasons.

[Radical_Manuvr]

Great Mod! Thanks to all who worked so hard on it.

I've been playing on very hard level and it seems that it will be impossible to win for at least the first 100 turns. The AI starts building Wonders on turn 2 and my build list shows it will take me 139 turns or something so I just give up on getting the early Wonders. It might make the game too easy but maybe the support costs of the early units should be lowered. I had one game where I only had one city of size 2 and I got 2 or 3 units from huts and my unit support costs were eating up 75% of my production for quite some time.

I think the first 30 Elite units went to the AIs but I've got one in each of the last 2 games (once I'm sure I'm going to win I usually get bored and start a new game). So far, no other civs have started a war with me. I've taken 3 games into the 1700s. The last game I was at war with Mexico almost the entire game. When they started settling on my continents I declared war. They had tons of Triremes and never attacked my ships until finally one time near the end.

I'm not sure about the counter bombard ability. Each time the AI bombarded me they lost their units (when I had bombarding units in the stack) . I was a tester for Alex 2.0 and Harlan took it out for that reason if I remember correctly. Maybe it works better on the later units, these were all siege engines or catapults.

Suggestion: change the Very Happy Threshold in the MM2_const.txt file to 99. It's still set at 85. It doesn't do anything for your score and you get the annoying messages about celebrations.

Suggestion: add something to the GL or add an "E" to the beginning or end of the Elite unit's names. I suppose this will happen less often as I get more familiar with everything but it's very frustrating to research an advance to get a unit only to find it's an elite one and I can't build it unless I get lucky with the random chance.

I'm not sure what you still have in the works but here are some problems I noticed.

Culverins don't have sound for movement or bombard.

The siege engine graphic is ok in most places but on the board/tile it appears as a chariot. I tried to find the problem but couldn't figure it out. Maybe the graphic file just has the wrong picture???

The horse archer unit has the sound for the original cavalry unit (gunfire).

In the GL many of the carry capacities for the ships are not correct.

In some cases refugees fled to my cities when I was the conqueror.

Guess that's it for now. Thanks again.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by jadlakha
I am using the newest update.

Well, did you get the messages when AIs change to war strategies? Was there anything wrong with them when they were displayed? Were they displayed at all? Could you and everyone else describe how the AIs deal with the war strategies? Do they switch immediately upon the start of a war and stay in them throughout the war or do they wait a long time, switch in and out all the time, etc? Wes and I and maybe others would like to know so we can improve the AI further.

Ruarc,
They seemed to work normal for me, but I never tested them very extensively. I work with build queues a lot so I just select all my cities, open the build manager and add or insert the Granary to the list when it comes available again. I'll pay closer attention to it next time I play though.

Tim's post gives me an idea: why not replace the current archer by the slinger and add the current archer where you'd normally expect an upgraded archer (longbow, crossbow, whatever). It may not be completely historically accurate but neither is the current setup and with the graphics resources available a historically accurate setup will be difficult in any case.

Hi Radical, nice to see you back in the forums again. I agree on the counter-bombard feature, it does seem a bit too powerful, esp. if the AI bombards a stack of 6 siege engines with only 1 catapult of his own. Not a chance in hell he'll survive.

I think celebrating cities help somewhat in growth, so it may be good to keep that for what it is (I could be wrong though). If you're having a lot of celebrations, I'd advice you to starve or work your people to death, that'll teach 'em not to celebrate

I agree on the Elite thing, it would be nice if they could be more easily recognized.

[Immortal Wombat]

with the graphics resources available a historically accurate setup will be difficult in any case.

Are all the archer sprites being used?
We have:
Slinger (TD)
Archer (CTP2)
Upgraded Archer (CTP1)
Elite Longbowman (CTP2 scenarcher)

[jadlakha]

Well, did you get the messages when AIs change to war strategies? Was there anything wrong with them when they were displayed? Were they displayed at all? Could you and everyone else describe how the AIs deal with the war strategies? Do they switch immediately upon the start of a war and stay in them throughout the war or do they wait a long time, switch in and out all the time, etc? Wes and I and maybe others would like to know so we can improve the AI further.

To be quite honest, I am playing a peaceful game, I usually wait to go to war towards the industrial age or when I get tanks, because then I wont have to keep upgrading units. So I have not gotten in any conflicts, and the AI hasnt been very aggressive, theyve actually stayed out of my territory without me even asking them too(no treaties or such have been necassary). In fact the AI is just a peaceful as ever. I have been waiting for them to provoke me but so far nothing. I will have to provoke em once to see what they'll do and how well they will do. But the AI has done nothing to me. However the AI is diplomatically engaging, however like I said earlier, 95% of the time its for map trades. A few times I have been asked to stop researching something but thats about it.

[WesW]

Just a quick post tonight ( I have not been feeling well these last few days)...
Mr. Fun, use the link to my webpage on the left to get the Medpack 4.13. It should not have the crashes you describe. And I do not know anything about emails you sent to me.

A proposal:
How about adding back the chances of getting an extra settler to start the game with? This goes to the AI more often than to the human, and it speeds up the game.

I have added a line in the Elite units' GL which designates them as such. I know of no way to mark them in the advances' entries.

The messages about AIs switching their PW percent, or gaining an Elite unit, should popup like the messages about starting wonders. This means you will be notified whenever they occur to anyone, not just the AIs you have contact with.

I will think about adding in the Ctp1 Archer as a new ranged unit, but I still think you could use the Chariot or Horse Archer to the same effect.

The terrace is a good idea, but the AI would not use it, so it would just be giving another advantage to the human.

What advantage do you gain when a city is very happy? I think you can disable these messages, btw.

I know I skipped a bunch of things. I will try and post a thorough answer tomorrow.

[janilxx]

I added messagebox line to slics but I suppose /reloadslic have to be used after that and I forgot that. Sorry Locutus.


But AI-AI again. I checked AI to AI relations often again and I still did not see other relations than and

That is sad thing because I am starting to have feeling that I will never get two AI's to attack against me methodically(they do not have military agreement and both of them are attacking against me). I think I can play with that.

BUT!!! Is it possible that if AI1 haves a war against AI2 they will go to peace sometimes. I mean will their war last forever? I hope not!!!

[ajbera]

Originally posted by WesW
I have added a line in the Elite units' GL which designates them as such. I know of no way to mark them in the advances' entries.

How about adding a mark to the unit name for elite designation? For instance, change the "Longbowman" to "Longbowman*". The asterisk is relatively unobtrusive, and will help denote that the unit is elite. Also, when the name shows up in the advance entries, the asterisk will be there as well.

Just a thought.

[Radical_Manuvr]

Thanks for changing the GL for the Elite units Wes. After I submitted my last reply I thought maybe I sounded too negative. Just want to say I am very impressed by the mod and there's too much cool new stuff to list it all.

I was trying to actually finish a game whether I got bored with it or not but I ran into a lockup problem. I'm not sure if it is due to the mod, my PC or CTP2. It seemed to lock on the barbarian turn/when the end turn progress indicator near the date was all red. The indicator would stay red and the end turn button stayed dark, not allowing me to go further. It started occurring every other turn when I got into the 1400s. The autosaves were no good and I'd have to save the game myself and go back 2 saves to continue. Finally even that wouldn't work. I may have missed a solution to this on the board if so, just let me know. Maybe it's just my PC.

I think I read something about granaries disappearing from the build list. I noticed that happening as well. It may have occurred when I got the geometry advance though I am not positive of that. I will try to check more often next game to see if I can provide better guidance.

I have not seen any messages about AIs changing public works or war strategies.

I thought I read that we didn't have to reload SLIC anymore to solve the militia problem, but some of mine were not being deleted when the city got to size 4. I had a lot of interruptions, I didn't play straight through and didn't try reloading SLIC to see if they would disappear.

As far as I know I was playing with the latest updates...downloaded all files from Wes' site on Wednesday and Locutus' text file2 on Friday.

Wes, if you'd prefer I just email you instead of posting here for bugs/possible problems I find just let me know.

[janilxx]

Originally posted by Radical_Manuvr
I thought I read that we didn't have to reload SLIC anymore to solve the militia problem, but some of mine were not being deleted when the city got to size 4. I had a lot of interruptions, I didn't play straight through and didn't try reloading SLIC to see if they would disappear.

Hey I forgot to tell you about this too! I have some cities with size 6 and they have militias and other do not. At least one city wit militias in size 6 does have one slave so maybe that have bluffed your code someway?

Wes, if you'd prefer I just email you instead of posting here for bugs/possible problems I find just let me know.

I think this forum is better place to discuss because we can get more comments from many persons here.

[Rhuarc]

Cool, we got new smilies!!! anyway, I was just wondering if anyone thinks the public release will be out soon? I have heaard from some people that it is already out, but I hadn't heard anything official in this thread.

[Rhuarc]

I'm not sure who will know this, but does anybody know if the CityMod2 is being used in the MedMod2? I think it is a cool idea to actually have the city expand to larger than one tile (not just city influence, but that actual city sprite expand) If it is not being used how hard would it be to implement this mod into the MedMod?

[janilxx]

I had some time again

Now I remembered to reload slic but after using end turn button I lost ability to build elite units. They are not in my list anymore. So sorry locutus I can not see your messageboxes in my current game.

So I can not recommend anyone to use reloadslic in the middle of the game. This time I lost elite units. I was lucky that I had saved game before using reloadslic so I just loaded the game.


About counter bombard. AI had units in his city. There were 3 catapults too. I moved next to that city with my units(I had 3 catapults too). AI decided to bombard me. First he bombarded with one catapult. My troops did counter bombard(I think all my catapults did this as a group) so AI's catapult got destroyed. Then AI did the same with next catapult. It got killed too. And then the third with the same result. And all this in one turns.

So my question is why didn't AI bombard me with all of those 3 catapult at once as a group? Why did he attaced 3 times? That was incredibly stupid because of course my troops will kill his troops in counter bombard because he was attacking with one unit at a time.

If AI is bombarding from cities or for example from forts in fields he should do that with all of his bombard units as a group. Not one in time. If he does it one in time he will surely lost all of his bombard troops too easily. This have to be solved somehow.

[WesW]

Martin sent me an updated citymod2 today, which has the new Palace city style, as well as an improved look for some of the other styles. It does not add the city-expansion trigger from BlueO's mod- I am going to add that in the second public release of the modpack. The city styles are really neat now, with the Egyptians having their own style (I cannot think of anyone else who built like the Egyptians, though I am sure some other people walked like them.) Did I mention that this is National Bad Pun Day here in the US?

Anyway, Wouter sent in the new triggers to kill enslaving units on turn 500, and the trigger to make the Arquebusier and Bombard Elite militia units.
I will try and figure out the problem with the hosted site here, and make new uploads for everything sometime tomorrow.

I have added the Ctp1 Archer to the mod, calling it the Bowman. It has stats comparable to the Swordsman and the Archer, and it costs about the same as the Heavy Swordsman, with whom it becomes available with at Iron Working. (Btw, there will be no more units added to the game at this late of a stage.)

I have pretty much re-written the Terrain and Tileimp readme, including the latest changes to the map settings, terraforming costs, and adding some things I forgot to mention from weeks ago.
I enabled farms to be built on deserts, plus green and brown hills and mountains, though at half their normal effect.
Glaciers can have roads, but not railroads or maglevs. Tundra can have all of them.
Deserts can be terraformed with Conservation now, Hills with Nano-Machines, and Glaciers with Gaia Theory.

When you found a city now, a militia unit is created, and it is never disbanded. Wouter had it disbanding at size 4, but I changed that to size 99, since disbanding caused a number of problems.
What do you think about giving everyone 1 Arquebusier and 1 Bombard unit in each of their established cities when they discover Gunpowder, instead of having them Elite units as they are now? We could modify the disbanding code to get rid of all existing militia units first.
I have also not heard anyone's opinion on increasing the chances of a second settler unit to start the game with, at least bringing the chances back up to what they were originally.

Is scientific research still bogging down in the post-Renaissance ages? I lost the renaissance age game I had going a couple of weeks ago, and I have not made it back that far since then.
That is about the only thing that needs to be worked out before we can go public.

I still need a Rifleman pic on a black background to use as a militia pic. If one of you who knows how to use the screen-capture function on the game's GL could sent me the pic, even if it is still on the Ctp2 background, I could make it into what I need.

Radical, I do not know what would be causing your game to crash.

I tried adding something to the end of the Elite units, but I forgot that you would have to add that to the unit build lists, all the slic triggers, and who knows what else. Once people play the mod a couple of times, or more importantly become familiar with the GL or the Medcharts, they will learn which units are Elite.

I forgot: Thanks for the report about the Cavalry sounds. I corrected it. I also worked on the other sounds so that there should be no more problems. I will try and work out a system so that people can download and use the ctp1 sounds for those units when the public release is ready.

I don't know why the counter-bombard flag would allow units to counter more than once a turn. If this turns out to be a problem, I will have to remove that flag from land units.

[Immortal Wombat]

Wes, if you add the * to the end of the unit names just in gl_str.txt, then the game will show the name with the *, but all the internal names stay the same. This saves a lot of time.#

Thanks for the bowman

[Rhuarc]

Awesome Wes, just reading about all the changes sounds cool, and I haven't even played any of them yet! I'm glad that you are going to add the expansion trigger into the second public release. I think that will ad a whole new dimension into the game that was never there before. Having your cities take up more than one tile will add a whole new twist on things. I wish CIV3 would do this, but that is probably just going to have to be wishful thinking at this point.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

From what i can read it sounds great, I might try to download everything and paly med mod ii this evening, to see if it is really too hard, and does AI go to war for real

Just a question, how long could it be until the first public release?

[janilxx]

I forgot this:

I am now at war against AI that was the number one before war. I have taken 4 of his cities now and he has not tried to take any of them back

But maybe he tried once. I killed one of his army(6 units) near one city I captured from him so maybe he just had no time to walk next to my city(?)

[Radical_Manuvr]

Well I made it through a game without crashing. Maybe the last game got corrupted somehow????????

I would like a better chance for a second settler at the start. It's very hard with just one (as the difficulty level indicates).

My opinion is keep the Bombard and Arque. as Elites but they need to be able to move.

The advances seemed to come at about the right time historically but I got a world peace victory in 1911 so I don't know how the rest would have been.

My biggest complaint is the settlers trying to go through my territory and once even settlling in my territory which squeezed my city influence once it grew. I had a treaty and no trespass agreement so I don't know how they settled there. I know the game (at least the regular game or maybe I'm thinking of Alien Crossfire) would not let me settle in another civ's territory under those circumstances (though I didn't try to test it). There's no way to get rid of them other than enslave or kill, so every turn or every other turn I was having to boot 'em back. That got very old.

I noticed a few times that defender's hit points get taken to zero but they don't die, in some cases winning a close battle but coming away with zero hit points. The only one I wrote down was a hoplite as a defender.

One civ declared war on me very early in the game for no reason at all. It was only a few turns after I met them and we had no diplomatic contact between meeting and the declaration of war. They paid the price but they could have done much better. They had a number of settlers standing around when I got to their territory (unlike my immediate neighbor). I rushed some slavers over there and had a field day, plus barbarians took some out.

Only one other civ declared war on me and that was after I used an abolitionist on them. Maybe I'll try provoking the other civs next time to see how they act at war.

On the disappearing granaries. I got it narrowed down a little. Sorry, I traded for 2 advances and had just got one when I noticed they disappeared. It isn't geometry that does it since I didn't have that yet. I think it was iron working or paper, but it could possibly be infantry tactics or currency. I'll try to narrow again in the next game. When I got the advance for food silos the granaries came back.

More wierdness... another civ (whom I had a embassy with) had a city revolt. A noble appeared out of nowhere just to establish an embassy with the new civ then disappeared. Later, I had signed a cease fire with a civ I previously had an embassy with and another noble appeared and established a new embassy within a few turns of the cease fire.

Man, the new city graphics are really cool. I like the Mayan, Mexican ones especially. I don't know how you did it but it even carries the theme into the later ages.

On to the next game. I should do better now that I know the mills disappear when you get oil refining.

[preacherman]

Wes,

Arqurbusiers and bombard units would be ok but at this time there is no need for them. The Ai's very seldom will attack a city. Only when I am playing on Very Hard. I would put your effert some where elles. In fact after barbs are out of the game I don't see any need for milita.

I don't think you need to give more then one settler. The more citys you get at the begining the less chanch the Ai has to win.

I haven't noticed any bogging down in the science in the Post-renaossamce age.

I know that starting with London Exchange it takes to long to build a wonder. I can build brokerages in all my citys faster and cheaper then building the exchange. We sure don't need the Ai's to waste all that time and production on it.

Thanks for the roads on the glaciers.