Torro Torro !

[Allard HS]

After the last discussion about Atlantis, I thought out a new topic to unite old bronze age cultures to a Spanish forum, so that at least non-Spanish people like me also have something to say on this forum.

So, I thought, let’s talk about bulls.

As you may know, the cosmic belt is very interesting for more reasons than just to see how much fortune you will gain and how much loved ones you will meet. I will spare you the mathematical talk around it, but basically every year the sun rises at a certain point of the year at the same point of the sky. At the summer equinox, a nice point to mesure, the sun rises in the symbol of the Fishes. Soon, however, in a few years, it will be the time of Aquarius. All stupid songs and cults have been formed around it, but it’s nothing really special.
The time it takes from the one sign from the other is about 2100 years. So, therefore, the last 2500 years we have been in the age of Pisces. People have ideas that that is the reason why Jesus is portrayed as a fish.

Now the point of my story is, that before the Pisces was the age of the Bull. Now we get to the point about which I want to talk. Maybe this astrological stuff is not really so very convincing, even though in ancient cultures it was very much so, especially in Egypt.

Now, let’s have a look of what the Bull has signified for mankind in the years of the Bull. Well, enormous, actually, much more so that the Fish has in the more recent one. All over the Mediterrenean the Bull was worshipped as being a holy figure or sometimes even thè most holy figure.

In Egypt the Apis was an example of this, but not so very important. However in the Middle East it had much more significance. Still, the one thing we think about if we think about bulls in this period is nowhere else than, yes, Crete. The beautiful pictures of people dancing on the horns of the bull, the presence of Bull’s horns all over the place, the beautiful bull with the golden horns, etc.
It is believed that –the Olympian gods were not yet established then- the Bull-God, later identified as Poseidon, was the most powerful god, who had power over the shaking of the earth (another interesting association given that other discussion).

So, therefore, what do you think? Does Spanish Bulldancing directly involve from Crete, or perhaps from the general god-making of the bull in the mediterranean in archaic times, or is it purely a coincedental, purely Spanish ritual.
And if the last, how could it have evolved?

[Exile]

I find it interesting that the Running of the Bulls is in Pamplona, in the primarily Basque region of Spain. The Basques are probably the oldest surviving people in Europe and are a remnant of a group that was much more widely dispersed throughout the Mediterranean region in ancient and prehistoric times, and even northward to the British Isles. My question; is bullfighting, in general, a survival of that very ancient culture, preserved via popular interest in the Iberian penninsula? I know that there are other small remnant groups in other places in Europe, mainly identified by linguistic peculiarites, but these groups don't place the bull so prominently within their cultural corpus.

Pre-historically,
Exile

[Shaka Naldur]

Exile,

actually the running bulls in Pamplona have nothing to do with the Basque culture, that´s a festival all over Spain, specially in the Levante region (eastern Spain) are also really popular

I heard once that the first thing known about the Iberian peninsula is a text by a greek trader that said the in Spain there were beatiful woman making noises with small sticks ( hey how can I translate castañuelas??) and men fighting against bulls,
so that could be an ancient tradition

anyway there are some regions in spain were the bullfighting is not popular at all specially in Galicia north-western Spain

and there are also lots of people that don´t like them (actually I don´t think that any of the Spaniards that post here like them, am I wrong)

[Waku]

quote: Originally posted by Allard HS on 03-14-2001 07:44 PM People have ideas that that is the reason why Jesus is portrayed as a fish.

As far as I know the reason to represent Jesus using a fish is the phonetical similarity between Iesus(Jesus) and Ictius(fish) but I'm not really sure.

quote: Originally posted by Allard HS on 03-14-2001 07:44 PM Does Spanish Bulldancing directly involve from Crete?

I don't think so.

quote: Originally posted by Allard HS on 03-14-2001 07:44 PM purely Spanish ritual.

I'm with Shaka, I think it's probably an iberian inheritance.

quote: Originally posted by Shaka Naldur on 03-15-2001 01:23 PM hey how can I translate castañuelas??

My dictionarie says castanets (?)

quote: Originally posted by Shaka Naldur on 03-15-2001 01:23 PM anyway there are some regions in spain were the bullfighting is not popular at all specially in Galicia north-western Spain

That's very interesting, same in Canary Island and Cuba, but on the other hand it's very popular in Mexico and Colombia

quote: Originally posted by Shaka Naldur on 03-15-2001 01:23 PM actually I don´t think that any of the Spaniards that post here like them, am I wrong

I've never been in a Plaza de Toros, I don't like it but it doesn't mean that I want them to be banned, it's part of our culture.
[This message has been edited by Waku (edited March 15, 2001).]

[Henrik]

These things (like bullfighting and the like) where quite common in Europe around the 17th century, there where lots of different festivals that involved stufff like this, a (for the modern man) very compulsive example is a festivall that used to exist in France where children would roast living cats over fire.
These things where as I said very common and the bullfighting is (or so I've read it is) a surviving festival of this kind.
Note however that these things wheren't regarded as cruell or even mean, it was just the way things where.
Other examples of animals being shown up fighting like this is bearfights and (hmm whats the word for a male henn in english?) fights.
I could have phrased this whole explaination better, but I hope you get the idea.

[Shaka Naldur]

quote: exist in France where children would roast living cats over fire. These things where as I said very common and the bullfighting is (or so I've read it is) a surviving festival of this kind. Note however that these things wheren't regarded as cruell or even mean, it was just the way things where.

of course, they used to roast people also!!!!!!!!!!!!

we still have tradition quite similar, in a few towns they throw donkeys and (cabras??) from the tower of the town´s church
I think that they are just two

quote: I've never been in a Plaza de Toros, I don't like it but it doesn't mean that I want them to be banned, it's part of our culture.

I think the same

quote: That's very interesting, same in Canary Island and Cuba, but on the other hand it's very popular in Mexico and Colombia

yes, you are right, what could it be??

[Shaka Naldur]

quote: People have ideas that that is the reason why Jesus is portrayed as a fish.

actually I think that they used a fish because they said that Jesus was a man´s fisher (a guy that goes fishing)

[Prometeus]

Bronze age and bull's religion, huh? Pretty interesting... about bull, has anyone noticed the "deity on a bull" trail from Ittites' Anatolia to northern Spain ( not to be mentioned one of the greatest Irish ballads, the "Tain bò cùlni" )? Investigate, gente...
[This message has been edited by Prometeus (edited March 15, 2001).]

[Prometeus]

quote: Originally posted by Shaka Naldur on 03-15-2001 03:52 PM actually I think that they used a fish because they said that Jesus was a man´s fisher (a guy that goes fishing)

It's from Greek ( i don't know greek, sorry, i read it in "Quo vadis"... )

Iesus Christos Theos Iuios Soter = ICTIS

Apologies for my bad greek...


[This message has been edited by Prometeus (edited March 15, 2001).]

[Jay Bee]

As far as I know, bullfighting in a manner more or less similar to what we know it today, traces back its origins to the Middle Ages, when Christians and Moors competed in hunting the wild Iberian bull. Therefore bullfighting resulted from the mixing of Chritian and Moorish customs. Just like so many other "typically Spanish" things like flamenco or the unique pronunciation of the letter "j". Nothing to do with Crete, the Bronze Age or anything along these lines.

However, let's not forget that the bull and the man have co-existed in Iberia for centuries. The Iberian bull is truly an imposing beast. It may well be taken as a symbol of bravery, nobility, courage, honesty etc. I find it not surprising at all that Iberian culture is so impregnated by bull imaginery. 'Entertainments' like the running of the bulls, the bull of fire, the diving bull, etc, etc might well trace back their origins to the dawn of times.

[Exile]

Henrik, have you read a book called "The Great Cat Massacre?"

Exile

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Lost in America
"a freaking mastermind." --Stefu
"or a very good liar." --Stefu

[Fiera]

He, he, I think you're gonna love this, Jay Bee:

Schulten also believes, as stated in his book "Tartessos", that the Minoans, first people to visit the Peninsula with trade purposes, were responsible of the introduction of the Bull worshipping cult in Iberia.

I, personally, think that one can't deny that the Bull seems to play a very important role in all ancient Mediterranean cultures, so I don't see it as an exclusive Iberian thing.

[Henrik]

quote: Originally posted by Exile on 03-15-2001 10:04 PM Henrik, have you read a book called "The Great Cat Massacre?" Exile

No, I have not.
I read this in a book about Europe in the 17th century, come to think of it I recal these things beeing introduced in the (not so) dark ages (although this particular festival was, well not very nice)

[Jay Bee]

quote: Originally posted by Fiera on 03-15-2001 10:21 PM He, he, I think you're gonna love this, Jay Bee: Schulten also believes, as stated in his book "Tartessos", that the Minoans, first people to visit the Peninsula with trade purposes, were responsible of the introduction of the Bull worshipping cult in Iberia.

Why this does not surprise me? ;D

[Chris 62]

I'd thought I would cloud the issue somemore, so some things: Prometeus is the closet to the Orthodox meaning for Christ. The early Christians used the sign of the fish for their sect, and it has a connection to Peter the Fisherman.(BTW Prom, your Greek isn't that bad, it sounds better then mine! ) As for bulls, sorry Fiera, not this time. The Minoans never activly spread their culture. Also, their concept was not to fight the bull, but to leap over it by grasping it's horns as it charged, and flipping over it's body, landing on their feet and sprinting away. But of course, this could be a lot of Bull!

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All knowledge begins with the phrase: I don't know.

[Waku]

quote: Originally posted by cpoulos on 03-16-2001 01:08 PM...their concept was not to fight the bull, but to leap over it by grasping it's horns as it charged, and flipping over it's body, landing on their feet and sprinting away.

I don't think the spanish concept is to fight the bull, imho it's to dribble or to dummie it. In fact we use the verb torear (= to bullfight) with the meaning to dodge.


[This message has been edited by Waku (edited March 16, 2001).]

[Waku]

JB was right:
http://goya.unizar.es/infoGoya/Work/Tauromaquia.html

I must confess that I wasn't aware of the bullfighting origins.

You will never go to bed without knowing something new
Spanish proverb

[Fiera]

quote: Originally posted by cpoulos on 03-16-2001 01:08 PM As for bulls, sorry Fiera, not this time. The Minoans never activly spread their culture.

Yes, it was just a Schulten's opinion. He sure was a wise man, but he wasn't always right, of course...

[Allard HS]

But, mr Poulos, isn't dancing with bulls and fighting them the same? Is it not so that the second can evolve into the first and vice-versa.

It is quite commonly accepted that Minoan bull-dancing was introduced long ago purely as a sacrifice, throwing men to the bulls. Later, probably, it evolved into a game, taking a little bit longer, and offering more pleasure to the crowd.

Same thing to bull-fighting, but the main essential element, indeed, still between the two is that in Crete man was to be killed, in Spain the bull.

[Chris 62]

quote: Originally posted by Allard HS on 03-16-2001 04:03 PM But, mr Poulos, isn't dancing with bulls and fighting them the same? Is it not so that the second can evolve into the first and vice-versa.

Yes, Mr. Hofelt, it is possible to evolve one to the other, but dancing and fighting are not the same.

quote: It is quite commonly accepted that Minoan bull-dancing was introduced long ago purely as a sacrifice, throwing men to the bulls. Later, probably, it evolved into a game, taking a little bit longer, and offering more pleasure to the crowd.

I am doubtful of this, since we can't read their writing.

quote: Same thing to bull-fighting, but the main essential element, indeed, still between the two is that in Crete man was to be killed, in Spain the bull.

From what is fully understood, the object in the Minoan game was to leap the bull, not be killed by it.



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All knowledge begins with the phrase: I don't know.

[Waku]

I have to insist on this topic, even at the risk of looking as a supporter of bullfighting (i am not). The object is not to kill the bull, the object (imho) is to avoid to be killed by the bull. The bull dies only because it's trying to kill the torero, otherwise bullfighting would lack of any interest.

[Jay Bee]

quote: Originally posted by Waku on 03-16-2001 02:00 PM JB was right: I must confess that I wasn't aware of the bullfighting origins. You will never go to bed without knowing something new Spanish proverb

What? You mean you haven't played Spanish Pride? Art of Bullfighting is one of the WoWs of that scenario, and what I posted above is more or less what is told in the Civilopedia entry.




[This message has been edited by Jay Bee (edited March 17, 2001).]

[Allard HS]

[quote]I am doubtful of this, since we can't read their writing.[/quote[

linear A we cannot, yes, but linear B is very easy. I can read it, so can you, with the right tools. Michael Ventris decoded it in the 50s. It's an archaic form of Greek. Therefore, we know now a lot more about Minoan society than we used to, however the information is limited as the writings are only from pottery and or clay tablets baked incidentally, and all deal storages of food etc.

[Shaka Naldur]

quote: I have to insist on this topic, even at the risk of looking as a supporter of bullfighting (i am not). The object is not to kill the bull, the object (imho) is to avoid to be killed by the bull. The bull dies only because it's trying to kill the torero, otherwise bullfighting would lack of any interest

I´m with Waku
the concept that the non-hispanic people have about bullfighting is quite weird (in my opinion)

actually bullfighting is a quite confusing tradition and if someone just know a little about it can get really confused about it

[Chris 62]

To Mr. Hofelt: I'm well aware that linear B is readable and linear A is not. I thought that was self evident in my post. I had assumed you would make the correlation in regaurds to why I stated that we cannot read the Minoan as akin to stating the obvious, that is Linear A is the one that needs to be understood to have a real idea about this culture. The very fact that linear B tablets are mostly bookeeping was why I ignored them, and yes, I understand that they are proto-greek. I'm sorry if you were confused by my post.

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All knowledge begins with the phrase: I don't know.

[Waku]

quote: Originally posted by Jay Bee on 03-17-2001 08:49 AM What? You mean you haven't played Spanish Pride? Art of Bullfighting is one of the WoWs of that scenario, and what I posted above is more or less what is told in the Civilopedia entry. [This message has been edited by Jay Bee (edited March 17, 2001).]

Sure I've played it, but I didn't read the civilopedia, sorry

[Jay Bee]

quote: Originally posted by Waku on 03-17-2001 02:59 PM Sure I've played it, but I didn't read the civilopedia, sorry

Darn!
I really enjoy writing those excerpts for the wows although I always have had the feeling that not many people cared much about them. Never mind

[Henrik]

I usually read the civilopedia, but I haven't looked at that scenario.

[N35t0r]

quote: Originally posted by Waku on 03-16-2001 04:48 PM The object is not to kill the bull, the object (imho) is to avoid to be killed by the bull. The bull dies only because it's trying to kill the torero, otherwise bullfighting would lack of any interest.

I think that they kill the bull just in case it learns from its mistakes in the second time he goes to the arena.