Does the game actually help you win?

Bohlen · May 10, 2000, 15:50

Some people would say that Civ 2 SP is programmed to do it's best to make sure you lose. I would agree with that in a general sense, but would also add that I have been in certain situations where the game seemed to help me out a bit. I've noticed that there are a few ways in which the AI gives a player an advantage in certain situations and how it actually helps that player win the game. Some things I have personally witnessed are:

1) Slowing the AI's research pace to more closely match yours.

This has been said before by many. If you are doing very well in research, at least one AI will keep up with you. If you are behind, the civs slack off a bit so that you can catch up.

2) Barbs showing up at the most opportune time.

A couple of examples of this include: a) a barb appearing right where you need him so that he destroys an enemy unit that is forcing ZOC or is just plain in the way; b) having barbs pop out of nowhere to take a city that you are about to capture because you just destroyed all of the defending units…then bribe the city cheaply and get free barb units.

3) Leader attitude and willingness to trade

If you don't check the foreign minister report just about every turn you might miss this. I've noticed that sometimes a civ leader's attitude will improve enough since your last turn, apparently for no reason, for him or her to be open to trading techs or maps. One trade in the mid-game can take you from loser to winner with the right tech.

I'm sure you could include just about every weakness the AI has, but I'm trying to specifically focus on items that are not really constants in the game, i.e. it doesn't happen all the time, every time…but it happens right when you need it, when you are losing in a certain situation or losing in the game as a whole.

Most of these observations were obtained while playing at Deity, with some at Emperor. I can only speak for these things happening on MGE as it is the only version that I currently have installed to play SP.

Does anyone have any more examples?

My Wife Hates CIV · May 10, 2000, 16:00

Those are kinda weak examples if you ask me. It just shows weak AI programming. I've noticed the AI not attacking a unit left in the open while blasting away at cities or stacked units. Again, just poor AI. I really don't think anything was placed in the game to -help- the player out. It might seem like that in some cases but it's probably just chance. The science rate thing is a handicap for the AI so the player does not get to far ahead. Again, you can play this to your advantage if you want.

shamrock · May 10, 2000, 16:46

Interesting points Bohlen

1) AI Research Pace
I think you have a valid point here - I've noticed this as well

2) Barb Timing
I would attribute this to random chance

3) Leader Attitude
I wouldn't know about this. I have MGE, and the ai attitudes generally never get above "icy."

Bohlen · May 10, 2000, 16:55

MWHC - I have to disagree with you. I don't think any of the above items are products of weak AI programming. I'm not saying that the game has been programmed to specifically target certain instances in the game to help out a player, but it sometimes is uncanny how some things happen. Take #2. Sure, barbs pop out of nowhere to hurt you sometimes, but sometimes they do just the opposite and fight with you against your enemy. I would agree that your example of poor AI attacking is due to poor programming, but also think that my three points above show a little programming intelligence when those happenings are carried out. It's almost as if they happen for a purpose, at least from my perspective.

Bohlen · May 10, 2000, 16:58

sham: I totally agree with your note on #3. It seems I can never talk sense to the AI civs. I don't even bother asking for an alliance because they will break it the next time you talk to them.

Wright-Patt., huh? Near Dayton, right? Maybe we should hook up for some MP games...

shamrock · May 10, 2000, 20:21

You know, Bohlen, I would be very interested in trying out multiplayer. However, I've been rather nervous to try it out for several reasons:
1) Not sure how to do it
2) Afraid I'll meet up with a group that has been playing together awhile and they'll gang up on me
3) Horror stories about cheating
4) Afraid I'll enjoy it so much that I'll get re-addicted to this damn game.

But I'd probably be willing to set all these aside...

Yeah, Dayton - lovely, lovely Dayton

(please note sarcasm).

Ming · May 10, 2000, 21:51

To answer your concerns...

1) Try it, it's really easy after the first time.
2) HA HA HA HA! If it is a group that has been playing together for awhile, they won't pick on you, they have other scores to settle.
3) Playing with a group you trust lessens the chance of cheating.
4) Well, yeah, you will addicted again

I would have to agree that your examples are either random chance or piss poor programming.
An example... if an AI or barb unit is touching one of your cities, it will always attack the city. Even if there is a settler, diplo, or any unit next to it. (Great to know if you want to catch the barb king)

And your comments about the AI always attacking from the same direction... well, they are always coming from the same place, so they always will come at you in the same way.

I will give you credit on the Techs... It does seem to stick with you. But, I would consider that bad programming too

May 10, 2000, 21:51

On the alliance thing, give me lots of techs and get their attitude to worshipful and you'll find ai civs much more amenable to alliance.

May 10, 2000, 21:52

quote:

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse on 05-10-2000 09:51 PM
On the alliance thing, give them lots of techs and get their attitude to worshipful and you'll find ai civs much more amenable to alliance.

Ming · May 11, 2000, 10:08

Yeah AH... that works, but only for a short period of time. In the MP edition of the game, the AI civs start hating your guts really early. Giving them something, will upgrade their attitude toward you one level for each thing you give them. However, in MP, that downgrades one level EVERY turn. So be prepared to keep giving, or just get used to the fact that everybody will hate your guts anyway.

Seeker · May 11, 2000, 13:39

The AI research slowing down inexplicably is something I've noticed in 7 player games where the AI is left alone. 3 AI civs will totally stagnate, sometimes not even having gunpowder in 1900!!

What causes this: The AI is militarist and is in close proximity to another AI, and at war. If the war deadlocks, then the militarist AI must keep a high tax rate and just keeps cranking out useless chariots ect.
forever.

finbar · May 11, 2000, 20:21

Somewhere in one of the manuals, from memory, there's a reference to the software adjusting the goings on in the game. If the human player is lagging behind, they will be somehow assisted. If they're miles ahead, they will be somehow hindered. Exactly how this is achieved I have no idea.

Horse - in the MPG version, the AI will always hate one's guts within a turn or two of giving them a ****load of techs. Give 'em another ****load, they'll worship you for a turn, then it's back to hatred again. It's one of the failings of the version of the game. And yet another reason why the Tower is one of the greatest wastes of Wonder space.

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finbar
Mono Rules!
#33984591

May 11, 2000, 20:50

ming, fin you are both right of course - I just do it to get the maps and techs for trade with other civs, I'm a complete slut about it

I don't care if they hate me a couple of turns after. Also, I have had offers of alliance from ais in MP games - but that might just be because of my Manifest Magnificence

[This message has been edited by Alexander's Horse (edited May 11, 2000).]

finbar · May 11, 2000, 23:08

Yeah, me too. Slutwise. Are you online at work? Again, in the loosest possible use of the term? Don't they have firewalls and stuff?

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finbar
Mono Rules!
#33984591