How do you play this game and actually win?

[Jim W]

I've been playing the game since last September, and very few times have I actually done what might be called "winning."

Seems like just about every game, I get up to 1500 AD, find myself with five cities and a treasury of 85 (and sometimes less). Whereupon I consider the likelihood of doing the tech advances necessary to get to AC by 2000, and come up with a figure somewhere in 2100 or so, so I quit and start a new game.

I did win one time because I had a huge whack of cities and stuff, and was just about to quit because there was no hope of getting to AC by 2000. Then I notice that there were only about five cities left unconquered, so I pulled on my G. Khan hat and went out and conquered them all. Of course, it ened up that one of the guys had built a new city in previously explored territory, so I had to go wandering all over the map to find him.

What I'm saying is, I guess I could always just go into conquest mode from the start, but I think the AC strategy is just a little more classy.

No, I'm not likely give the game up entirely, but it sure does seem to be taking me a heck of a long time to master it.

Jim W

[Seeker]

Jim, look at my last post in the thread 'AI cheats in naval bombardment' --it's a recap of the three basic paths to victory and the strategies you need.

You should NOT have 5 cities by 1500 AD.

The basic for ANY strategy is this: Build lots of caravans. LOTS. If you can't think of a very good reason to build something, build a caravan.

[The Mad Monk]

Jim, what level are you playing at?

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The Mad Monk
"Oh, the morning it stumbled right in through the window,
And this getting up early, gets old anyway
And if you listen closely, the crying that you hear,
Is the night time lamenting the start of the day."
-Lyle Lovett, "Icewater/Fly Swatter Blues"

Should NOT have 5 citie. 25 maybe.

[Steve Clark]

...or 8-12 really high quality coastal/river cities, cranking out arrows for research and caravans for building everything.

If you can't think of something to build, build caravans. Even when you have enough caravans to build 3 wonders at once, build some more!

[Ming]

Heck... only FIVE cites by 1500AD.

Expansion is key to the game. Forget about building improvements... BUILD MORE SETTLERS.
You have thousands of years to improve, at least lay a good base of cities first.
If I don't have 8 cities by 2000BC, I know I'm falling behind. In an MP game, I know I'm doomed

Explore and expand. Then you can start worring about trade routes and war. If somebody blocks your way, go somewhere else. Locked in... build ships and find someplace else to expand. Just keep building cities...

And last, don't concentrate on production shields. Concentrate on trade arrows instead. Do a beeline and research straight to monarchy (or republic) GET OUT OF DESPOTISM as fast as you can.

Do these simple things, and your chances of winning will improve.

[DaveV]

With all due respect, I have to disagree with Ming on the shields vs. arrows question. If the object is to crank out settlers and cities as fast as possible, a shield is worth a lot of arrows (2.5 gold = 6.25 arrows at 40% tax). When my cities are size 1, I try to max out shields, food, and arrows, with the emphasis on food. But once they reach size 2, I go for max shields. If that means working forest and sacrificing some arrows, so be it. I figure that the new city will generate more arrows later than I'm losing now.

Jim W - here's a simple algorithm for the early game: Build your first (two) city(s). Build a warrior to maintain order, a horseman to explore, and a settler to build another city. DON'T waste time irrigating, mining, or building improvements in your city. Build roads if needed, but get those early cities down ASAP! If you decide to switch to growth mode later, your cities should all be about the same size, which makes "we love the xxxx" growth spurts easier. If you want to play the "infinite cities" game, just keep cranking out settlers and building cities.

(Edited to make it clear I wasn't trying to tell Ming how to play the early game)
[This message has been edited by DaveV (edited April 17, 2000).]

[Ming]

I'm glad you disagree, and you raise some fine points. But, the key is to get out of despotism. If you maximize for shields after it has gone to two pop, you will be in despostism far too long. I try to get to monarchy by 3000 BC... sooner, and I'm winning big time. If not by 2800BC, I'm getting killed if I'm playing MP. The difference between despotism and Monarchy is huge. I would rather have one less settler and get into Monarchy far faster.
I do build cities keeping production in mind.
And yes, I still crank out settlers as fast as I can, and usually build a unit or two to explore... but I will concentrate on trade arrows, not production. Given a choice of starting my first city near trade or production, I'll take the trade. In the long run, it's a better strategy IMHO

Ming: Monarchy in 3000BC???

I'm happy when I reach it before 2000BC.

But in fact, I don't have many experiences in MP, and my highest rate in SP were

***ashamed*** 167% ***ashamed***

with DEITY, man, with DEITY
A friend of mine has reached 130% with Warlord, so my record...sucks

I know, I know, I'm bad. I play this game since summer 1996, so this is ridiculous

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"The more I know, the more do I know that I don't know anything" - forgotten who said that...
"Within the peace, enemy attacks us..." - Kaiser Wilhelm II, August 1914
"Hell, yeah!" - James Hetfiels, while singing "Master Of Puppets" on Metallica-S&M-concert in spring 1999 in San Francisco

[DaveV]

Ming - Despotism is indeed a lousy government, but I don't think it cramps my style so much in the early game. Up to four cities, there's no riot factor penalty over Monarchy. The production penalties only kick in for a square that produces more than 2 shields or arrows - a rare item in the early game.

Maybe you've been tainted by 2x production?

[Ming]

Yes, I have been "tainted" by double production. But, I still played it that way in single production. (but I sure as hell didn't get to monarchy by 3000BC in single )

I'm one that builds my first few cities near specials... And I will wander until I find them. Yes, sometimes I feel like the lost tribe... but I still look for them. Your first few cities will be the key of your empire... I want them to be special!

Science is everything in Civ. In MP, it gives you first crack at the wonders. If you can lead in science, you will never be in bad shape... (unless you leave your cities defenseless)

[inca911]

To win this game, you need to understand:
1. How to keep your people happy (preventing civil disorder).
2. What trade arrows do for you. Trade = Science = Bombers vs. Pikeman = Victory.
3. Different benefits of different government types. Things like martial law, max number of cities per government type before unhappiness really starts up, special unhappiness factors.
4. How military units work. Things like defensive bonuses for rivers, city walls, veteran status, etc.
5. What Wonders do for you, also city improvements.

I have tried to compile answers to many of these questions (provided by myself and others, thanks to all!) in a thread entitled "Distilled Civ Tips and Notes". Give it a read through and let me know if you have any questions. I will give it a bump so it is next to this thread on the message board (or at least close). With a few tips from the experienced civ players here, you will be taming Deity level in no time. Then you have to find ways to handicap yourself against the computer or find human players!

[Scouse Gits]

Dave V 1) Assuming you have Pottery from the start - do you start the Hanging Gardens after your capital has built its first warrior and settler?
2) If you don't have Pottery - would you ever consider researching it instead of one of the techs leading to Monarchy?

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SG (2)

[geofelt]

Jim-W; The key is to have many cities. To do this, have every city build a defender first, then build a settler just as soon as it reaches size 3. Use that settler to found a new city on any half decent spot near existing cities. Keep expanding until you run out of territory. Expand TOWARD any civ you find to deny them expansion room. in time all of these little cities will become big ones, letting you go to war, or build a spaceship. Use your settler to connect the cities by road. Irrigation does not help until you get to monarchy. I will also mine a wine or coal hill in my palace city.
Get to monarchy ASAP. If you can't research a monarchy prereq, pick bronze-working, pottery, or masonry to give you a wonder to start building. You can always switch production to a different wonder later.
Don't build any improvements early. After some size(depending on level) you will have to build a temple to keep order. Don't build markets until you are generating over 5 trade. Don't build a library until you get to 6 beakers.(my rules of thumb). If you are not building a settler or a military unit, build a food caravan to help build a wonder later(there is no maintenance cost for these).
There is a debate on maximizing trade vs shields. Both are right, and perhaps a balance is best. I find that I lose wonders because of a lack of production capacity, and not techs.
Try again, and let us know how you do.

[Smash]

You don't need lots of cities to win by space every time.A half dozen is plenty.Or even one.

My first 2 0r 3 cities absolutely,positively have to have specials in their radius' or I keep looking.Recognize the special pattern so you can mine specials from grassland if necessary.

Ming is correct.Science is everything.Learn how trade arrows work.Generating lots of trade arrows gives the science and cash.

Move your workers.Don't accept the game's default placement.It goes for food first.You want arrows

caravans,caravans,caravans-build and DELIVER as many as possible.Don't spend 1000 years looking for a city that demands.Get the trade routes set up ASAP.If it demands...great.

OCC.Play it.You will learn more about the game than any other way.

http://home.planet.nl/~belt0018/occ.htm

Playing multiplayer is also a great way to improve quickly.

[Bohlen]

The best advice I can give is this:

Read as much as possible off of this site and take it in. It is because of the posts of all the civ geniuses (i.e. Ming, Smash, WarBeaver4Ever, DaveV, SG, and countless others) that my game has improved so much. Those posts above are exactly what you need to win. Just hang in there and keep at it. You will become an expert with the help of this group of players.

[Jim W]

I'm still playing at Warlord Level. I figure I won't try to get too difficult until I can win most of the time at WL.

I've been trying to keep my mind on expansion. However, I still do a bit of development around each city with each new settler (1 mine, 1 irrigation, that sort of thing.). Once I've got five cities or so, I usually set one settler or two out of the many I've got to building roads to facilitate trade.

Just recently, I've taken to watching the shield production as closely as the food production. (I think it may be something to do with the bright colour of the grain sheaves (back on the farm in my part of the world, we called them "bundles") as opposed to the darker blue of the shield.

Some time ago, I noted the advantage of Monarchy over despotism in terms of taxes and Science, and the advantage of Monarchy over Democracy in terms of the lack of a Senate to prevent me from running those Bad Guys out of my irrigated fields. So I head for Monarchy very quickly, with Bridge Building a close second.

I have not yet been able to really figure out what the trade arrows do, where they come into play, though I can see where they're produced, and manage their increase. As a result, I generally work at food and shields.

I may have downplayed my achievements too severely; I only occasionally find myself with five cities at 1500 AD. I've had worse situations; surrounded by enemies on the continent I start out in, with another enemy inhabiting the nearest land-mass to my own, making expansion very difficult, and necessitating a large concentration on defence.

The game I started just after sending off last night's whine is going a lot better, though I'm still using somewhat of a mix of the Explore-and-found cities and the Explore-found- and-develop cities mode.

As for building caravans without having roads, yes, it can be done, but having roads at least between the major cities is a massive advantage.

And in last night's game, while I was still irrigating a patch where I was about to found my first city, one of my exploring archers tipped over a hut and found an advanced tribe, which declared itself the capital. (Built the palace.) I haven't changed that because that city is in pretty much as good a position for a Science City as my first choice.

Thanks for all the suggestions, and I hope this hasn't been gone on for too long.

Jim W

[My Wife Hates CIV]

A super science city and a caravan production city. A city to support military units (all your units that fight on the front).

Have enough caravans ready to build the wonders in the correct cities.

[Seeker]

Remember that sometimes the best defence is a good offense, i'm sure everyone who plays will agree that on a small or medium sized continent you should conquer your neighbour before they expand and take all the good city spots.

[The Mad Monk]

quote: I still do a bit of development around each city with each new settler (1 mine, 1 irrigation, that sort of thing.)

Jim, this is your problem, right here. you have to remember that mining and irrigation take 5-10 turns a piece; at Warlord, that's 100-200 years. In the time it takes you to do either, you could take that settler, move clear of his home city, and build a new one.

Try this: do nothing with settlers except build cities--no exceptions--until you have at least ten cities. Make certain the first thing you build in each city is your cheapest defender, followed by a settler, followed by yet another settler.

Then sit back and examine the results.

[Scouse Gits]

This may sound wierd, but Smash touched on it.

Play a game of OCC - take one of the good starting maps that have been banded about recently - read Paul's guide - set the difficulty at least one notch higher than you normally play - let the good times flow!

I guarantee that (1) you will win - this is a tremendous boost to the ego and (2) you will see a thousand ways in which you could have done better!

I hasten to add that playing a sleaze will also guarantee a win, but it takes a lot longer and is harder work.
The sort of multicity perfectionism that you describe can most certainly work, but it takes more micromanagement than I can hack.

Good civin'

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____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor

[DaveV]

SG2,

1) I start HG after finishing a caravan. Then I use that caravan and three others (built in other cities) to complete HG in one turn. I would rather produce several extra settlers than start HG in the very early game. I never seem to have any problem building HG vs. the AI, since they don't place a high value on that wonder. It could be a different story against humans, though...

2) No. Monarchy first, Trade second. Usually by the time I need Pottery, I've acquired it from a hut or tribute. The only time I would choose to research it is if I couldn't research any techs leading to Monarchy or Trade (and then I'd still hope to pick it up for free before I finished researching it).

Ming, Smash, et al. - I started a thread a long time ago where I concluded that sacrificing some early arrows to build extra cities pays off in the long run.
http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/HTML/000758.html

[George Garrett]

On the other hand, Jim, you could continue to lose, gratefully, like me.
At that inevitable stage when my civ world crumbles, my citizens either vanished, or vexed, my capital, science, and production centres, tho walled and well defended, fall to the first invader, enemies abound, prospects fade away, that's when I say to my 1/1/1 20th Century warriors "How jolly! - let's quit this mess, and start a new game"

For me the best part of Civ2, is the start on a new random map, with a fresh, black slate: those first few absorbing hours of buildup in a brand-new environment, wondering what the game has in store for me...I know that sooner, or later, I'm going to get clobbered again,(in my Hall of Fame I'm rated "I the Ignominious"), but, I continue to travel, hopefully, and when I eventually stumble into involuntary confrontation with, and eventual conquest by, the 3 strongest AI civs, am I downhearted? -no!
'Cos, as the Barred has it "Now is the Winter
of our discontent-can Springing to a new start be far behind"

It's all them winners who I pity, Jim...ACing blithely in Diety by the Cro-Magnum Age,what have they to look forward to? No travelling hopefully for them - they've arrived!
All the civ world is blase, Jim, except thee and me, and even thee succeeeds sometimes!
[This message has been edited by George Garrett (edited April 18, 2000).]

[Ming]

DaveV... I remember that thread. You laid out the differences quite well.
But one thing you ignored in that thread is that with the extra money generated by increased trade, you can buy those settlers just as fast (if not faster) than you are bulding them. That alone made your comparison not a fair one.

There is no reason to give up on trade at the expense of production. Money can buy shields, so why not have both

[DaveV]

Ming - money can indeed buy shields, but at a 2.5 to 1 discount. Assuming you're maximizing your science, it takes an extra 6.25 arrows to make up for one lost shield (I said this earlier in this thread, in less longwinded fashion). In my early games, the cash generated by my economy is dwarfed by the windfalls from goody huts and tribute. Building more cities means more units out exploring, means a better chance for huts and tribute.

I'm not saying early trade doesn't matter - I'd much rather put a worker on silk, whales, or a rivered forest than a plain forest. But when I'm in expansion mode, I want to *expand*, expecting to catch up on arrows later.

Jim W: If you are still playing in Warlord level, my suggestion is, 'just listen to the general tips, ignore the specific one'. It is half of your fun trying to figure YOUR strategy (and be beaten promptly by the experts here). Choose your style that you want to adopt and ask for specific advice on the strategy. You want to be a trader? a settler? a horseman? a scientist? a diplomat? Or combination of all that?
I have a weakeness which I still do not manage to overcome, I hope that you won't repeat it because you play against computer. You need a lot of military assets in games with human, but not with computer. Don't get spoiled by computers for keeping too little an army. If you are of the type who like using 12 crusaders to attack a city before gunpowder, just forget my previous comment.

[Ming]

I hear you... But my point is, if you fall behind in arrows, it will be difficult to catch up later. (Plus, the free science from being the first to Philosophy is a real gift ) What good are all those shields if you don't have the science needed to build the wonders you need.
Plus, in an MP game, you won't be getting tribute (unless you are playing with idiots or AI's) and you will also be getting less huts, because real people are as aggresive as you are to hunt them down.

Now, I will grant you that against the AI, just about any solid strategy will work. And your way may actually be better, since the AI cheats to develop sciences at the rate you are. But in an MP game, science and money are everything. The first person to be able to build pikeman, knights, elephants, catapults, or crusaders has a definite edge.

[Smash]

I guess building an extra city early for additional trade is better than concentrating on arrows early since incremental rushbuying is cheating now

[Ming]

Incremental buying... cheating... depends on your perspective. Yes, some do consider it cheating. They are welcome to their opinion.
I don't see it that way. And I do not hide the fact that I do it. If I join a game, and the majority agree not to do it... I won't. Just like any other rule everybody seems to be disagreeing with these days

[Scouse Gits]

Dave V - Thanks, I am now converted to the "Production Imperative"
I must admit, I tend to rush the HG too much, when playing ICS. My trouble is I always want the Lighthouse as well!
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SG (2)