Barbarians

SmartFart · May 9, 2000, 22:38

Anybody noticed that barbs are much smarter when attacking than AI civs?
They're using deffensive terrain,diplo-stacking and shore approach like many of us do.
I've never saw AI attacking that way.
Do they have their own AI scripting or i am just too agressive so AI never got a chance to make move?

May 9, 2000, 23:50

they really don't seem smarter to me. The only thing that could be considered smart. Is when they land their forces (huge numbers sometimes) from the boats before I can prepare a defense. They land horse units on flat terrain to attack my cities- and many times take them over before I can move units from another city. And they seem to always find the one without city walls and with 1 non-vet defender.

I forgot to mention I lost many more cities to barbarians than to the AI. The cities I lost to the ai I can count on 1 hand.
[This message has been edited by Black Bart (edited May 10, 2000).]

Smash · May 10, 2000, 02:28

I'm not sure about smarter but early on they can really screw you over.Particularly in MP.

When your warrior defended city is set upon by archers and chariots and you don't have Writing.When your first built settler takes 1 step into the dark to meet 2 legions.When they pillage the mine you just finished.When you hang your city to chase a leader that disappears just as you got him cornered..I hate that

Canadian War Beaver · May 10, 2000, 03:51

LOL@Smash...... this man has definitely multiplayed before

also when your none settler opens that hut just after your first city is built, BAM.... out comes barb horse, or drop that second city and along comes barb trireme

then you realize the next three hours are going to be hell

------------------
Dont' let the name fool you, my policy is still the same..... War4ever.... damm where did i put that nuke

Makeo · May 10, 2000, 05:07

I agree, barbarians use much smarter attack techniques than the ai's. They always attack in force, rather than singly and arrive unexpectedly from ships.

Black bart you begin your post saying you don't think they are smarter and conclude it by listing a number of reasons why they are.

Ming · May 10, 2000, 09:26

Makeo... It only seems like they have a strategy. Since they usually arive with multiple units, they attack that way. The AI does the same if it has multiple units in position to attack.
Another thing... The barbs seem tougher because they are. At Deity, they have a better attack strength (50%) than their AI counterparts. Also, they usually can field better units. Add that to the fact that they can appear anywhere, and they just have to be nastier than those wimp AI civs.

Bohlen · May 10, 2000, 09:52

I don't think the barbs are designed to be better tactically, but the game definitely gives them an advantage sometimes when it comes to numbers and the types of units with those numbers. Granted, barbs are more dangerous in the early game as they tend to land in great numbers (one crusader, two crusader, three crusader, four..) from the sea and attack in a hurry, but in the late game you'll see something like 4 partisans and four Calvary pop up together from their underground lair. The movement points for these units are dangerous and annoying with all of the pillaging. What I am saying is that they aren't programmed to be better tactically, but because of how they attack in numbers and the units sometimes involved it may seem like they are pretty smart.

Barbs have definitely pissed me off and if there is one thing I say to my monitor while playing Civ it is, "Damn barbs!" Hey, there's my first idea for a sig.
[This message has been edited by Bohlen (edited May 10, 2000).]

The Mad Monk · May 10, 2000, 10:15

quote:

Barbs have definitely pissed me off and if there is one thing I say to my monitor while playing Civ it is, "Damn barbs!"

Funny, what I usually say is, "More recruits--excellent!"

Seriously, there is nothing I love better than to to find a barb "spawn point" near a technically backward civ, since it always means tons of cheap NONE units that Leo's will quickly bring up to speed. Even after Leo's folds, I still collect recruits, since you can still them to scout and stuff fortresses and cities (and artillary remains effective against most units right up to the end).

edit: spelling and grammer.
[This message has been edited by The Mad Monk (edited May 10, 2000).]

My Wife Hates CIV · May 10, 2000, 10:20

Setting up a killing zone for barb kings has been talked about before. I had a nice size island with about 10 cities (AI game). There was a small junk of it I was not using and this area was generating a steady stream of barbs. During a few turns when it was clear I moved a number of settlers up to this area and had them build forts on many of the sqaures. Now, with a small garrison of attack units I could quickly get the barb king even if he was stacked because they were almost always in a fort. This really gave me a great gold income that I could count on.

Ming · May 10, 2000, 10:36

I'm with you MWHC. Barbs can be an important source of revenue, as well as cheap recruits.

I just hate it in MP games when people are complaining about "all the barbs" and I don't get any.

Barbarians are your friends...

My Wife Hates CIV · May 10, 2000, 10:55

I've only started doing the killing zone thing. The part that got me was they are always stacked and by the time the barbs kill themselfs off you might miss the king. Within a 15 or so sqaure area with roads and forts covering most of the area you can attack the turn they appear and get the king. Many times they reappear in just a couple of turns. It seems that forts and roads do not stop barbs from appearing. Instead of just hundreds of gold I had over 7000 gold my last game at that time of the game. It's almost a cheat (seems like it anyway). It does take some time to *build* this zone. Time is not a luxury in MP but the pay off would be worth it I think.

Bohlen · May 10, 2000, 13:43

I should say that the "Damn Barbs!" comes out of my mouth when I am not properly prepared for them or have established the mystery number of cities that make them strong enough to take one of my cities. I do bribe some barbs, but tend to concentrate my game on other aspects of military and diplomatic strategy. I'd rather send a dip to a distant civ to steal a tech than run the risk of getting him killed in a barb battle zone. But, I'll have to try this "barb zone" and see if it's worth the effort for how I play.

I must admit that I enjoy killing them off more than bribing them. It helps your units gain vet status and pumps up your military ego as well. It just feels good.

My Wife Hates CIV · May 10, 2000, 13:46

well the other part of the trick is finding a good place to set up a killing zone. an isolated area away from your cities perhaps with only one choke point in between is best. The barbs are forced to walk into your trap. If done right you can really lack in trade and still keep up (gold wise, science might still suffer).

SmartFart · May 10, 2000, 19:49

I lost a city to barbs few days ago.
They had 2 charriots which appeared near river.
One went north,while other went south using riverbed to move.
They took positions 2 squares from my size 1 city.
I rush-build a horse,but was able to destroy only one charriot,of course.
Other one destroyed my city defended by warrior. Now if that wasn't smart...

AI never use 2 units from different sides. If my city is close to AI all i can expect is one by one unit comming from the same dirrection.
Same thing with diplomats. They're never stacked xcept with other dips. They keep comming forever from the same direction.
I used to play OCC games and sometimes i killed about 10 diplos in 10 turns.

Yes...barbs are cool later in the game when you're well defended,but early when you're not,they could be a pain. Legions usually doesn't comes too early,but archers do and they're tuff to beat when climbing mountains and hills and you only have horsemen to attack.
Of course...i could build barracks and vet phalanx (even vet phalanx could lose a battle against barb archer),but since i mostly playing MP games thats fastest way to lose a game because others will pumping out settlers and horsemen.

May 10, 2000, 23:19

Killing zones are a great source of revenue.... the often stated pikeman and crusader on a mountain will provide one with many many coins

but what gives with the double stack king???? i hate being ripped off that extra 150G

May 11, 2000, 01:40

hmm my post does look like that. Well their tactics aren't any better. They still move randomly. Sometimes when they land from a ship and don't actually attack the same turn. I'll move a defensive unit from a city 3 squares away to shore up the threatened city. Yet they can also take the completely undefended city, but don't. They attack the closer city.

It's just the unexpected attacks that make them better.

Smash · May 11, 2000, 05:10

Hmmm...tonight in an OCC game a caravel dumped off 3 legions and a leader.I bribed 2 of the legions just before another barb caravel of 3 crusaders and a leader unloaded 2 of the crusaders and the leader onto the other leader.The remaining legion withdrew to a mountain in front of their stack out of range of my new legions.

Next turn the caravel sailed on,unloaded the last crusader in my radius and killed my non settler.They flanked me!!The legion and 1 crusader moved 1 space while the other crusader fortified with the 2 leaders.They were lined up 3 in vertical row on 1.hill 2.grass 3.mountain

next turn the legion and crusader seiged my gold square causing disorder.No response time in SP.

Now, a rushed diplomat eventually put an end to this raid but it was a nice try!It almost seemed like they had a plan!

May 11, 2000, 05:54

Smash they do almost sound intelligent on your cd

A smidge off topic but this has to do with barbs so bear with me here if i sound stupid

i had a size two coastal city destroyed by barbs which also had a trireme in it which wasn't destroyed but left on the land square for me to move the next turn ......

A) is this normal? The trieme was from the same city ?

B) has anyone else experienced this or are we all so wired on civ that it makes us hallucinate ?

Ming · May 11, 2000, 08:25

I've seen that happen before when the ship DIDN'T belong to the city destroyed.

If it was indeed attached to the city that got destroyed, it should have disappeared.
But as we know... BUG BUG BUG BUG...

mexciv · May 11, 2000, 17:11

One thing I usually do in early stages of the game, is to bribe the barbarian transport once the barbarians have landed, you can then get the diplomat in the ship along with other military unit and if possible a settler/engineer and go settle or conquer somewhere else; this is a good use for those problems they give you.