We love the 'X' day - a crutch for the weaker player?

[Smash]

I'm really starting to dislike the "reply with quote" feature

Ever feel like you'd be present even if you never posted on a thread?

[The Mad Monk]

quote: Originally posted by Smash on 05-13-2000 02:59 PM I'm really starting to dislike the "reply with quote" feature

Somehow, I don't think he's using it.

[Crustacian]

A one city challenge player against the AI's could say that people who play against the AI with more than one city are weak and in need of a crutch, but that would sound silly, and no one would argue that having more than one city was or was not intended by the game designers....BLA BLA BLA

And if they tried to proove how playing with more than one city was incorect well?

But if that same person said they prefered to play with only one city cuz playing with more didn't seem like enough of a chalenge, explaining why bla bla bla... and what do you all prefer? It would be differant.

BTW Venger you once said that republic was necissary (as compared to WLPD which you said was not)in the beginning of this thread but it is not. In your oppinion it is, but you can have a challenge and play the ai as a despot all the way through if you want.... it is all the same thing. But if you did play the AI as a despot all the way through would you call every one who used rep or dem weak?

The manual is a point of referance. A good argumant needs one that is mutually acceptable. By it your argument is completly lost. But you say you don't hold to it and even try to interpret the intent of the designers. Hardly anyone agrees with your interpritation, and that is for SP civ, not MP civ.

I think an MP game with max lux settings of 20-30% would make an interesting variation, but 100% (tho never necissary to get WLPD results in my games) is allowable by the game if you have a govt that allows that much and have enough bucks to pay your expenses while you do.

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The journey itself is the thing~Odysseus
[This message has been edited by Crustacian (edited May 13, 2000).]

[cavebear]

Forgive me for observing that the tenor of the discussion has changed somewhat of late.

What was a very reasonable question about the value and intended purpose of WLTxD seems to have gotten "just a tad" out of hand.

My sincere appreciation to Venger for bringing up the question (which I found interesting). My equal appreciation to those who discussed the idea at length.

Both sides did well, and it is worthwhile to question things that *can* be done (and defend that they *should* be done.

Can we ease off a bit on the personal stuff, though?

[SandMonkey]

At the risk of getting verbally b*tch slapped by Venger -

It's over man. Really. I read the whole thing. You made some good points, at first. But now all you do is try to make witty comebacks and belittle everyone. Through the first few posts you had some decent arguments. But after that, you just became a jackass. Earlier, someone said you belong in the OT. I now fully agree. And now i wait to get verbally bashed by Venger for expressing my opinion - **Gasp!** something this entire thread is based on...

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SandMonkey

"Shut up brain or I'll stab you with a qtip"
-Homer Simpson

"Ecky ecky ecky!"
"It's just a flesh wound!"
- Monty Python and the Holy Grail

Check out my 1602 A.D. site

edited for gramatical errors
[This message has been edited by SandMonkey (edited May 14, 2000).]

quote: Originally posted by Crustacian on 05-11-2000 12:50 AM I am not sure why you associate my words with Yoda's I wonder whos words would you have associated Yoda's with when you first heard his?

That is Yodaesque too

[SandMonkey]

quote: Originally posted by Venger on 05-14-2000 12:28 PM P.S. I noticed you did not address whether you thought using WLTYYYD is a valid strategy or not. Now, that would seem to make your post OFF TOPIC. It did nothing but express your opinions about me, not about anything related to Civ. Ironic, no, complaining someone posts nothing but off topic attacks by posting an off topic attack?

Correct me if i am wrong.. bu haven't 2 of your last 3 posts been off topic?

And if you want me to recite the things that everyone else has said... okay!

I don't feel it is a crutch b/c it was obviously designed into the game. you may feel it wasn't designed to be used to grow cities huge very quickly, but that is your opinion. only the game designer can tell you if that was intended or not.

And, for my final thought on this topic... instead of defending yourself against everyone, why don't you just respond the the quotes that are on the topic? I dunno, that would probably kill the thread... but hey, i don't know anything, so don't even bother listening to me...


------------------
SandMonkey

"Shut up brain or I'll stab you with a qtip"
-Homer Simpson

"Ecky ecky ecky!"
"It's just a flesh wound!"
- Monty Python and the Holy Grail

Check out my 1602 A.D. site

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by SandMonkey on 05-14-2000 12:42 AM At the risk of getting verbally b*tch slapped by Venger - It's over man. Really. I read the whole thing. You made some good points, at first. But now all you do is try to make witty comebacks and belittle everyone.

Right, like in my reply to Shamrock, filled with off topic vitriol and personal attacks. Or my response to JERandall, where I couldn't get over someone disagreeing with me I had to just attack him over and over. Oh and in responding to cavebear and hydey. I jumped all over them too...

quote: Through the first few posts you had some decent arguments. But after that, you just became a jackass.

Hmm, should I respond in kind and use a witty comeback, so you can then whine in another post about personal insults? Yes, look Venger, you called SandMonkey a bad name. No Venger, it doesn't matter that he called you a jackass, because I don't read the parts you reply to, it only matters that you used a critical reply. Bad Venger, bad.

When admonishing someone for their behavior, it's best to not exhibit the failings you accuse others of.

quote: Earlier, someone said you belong in the OT. I now fully agree.

You're right, the validity of WLTYYYD has nothing to do with Civ, it fits better with whatever inane banter occurs in the off topic forums.

quote: And now i wait to get verbally bashed by Venger for expressing my opinion - **Gasp!** something this entire thread is based on...

I'm curious - if the thread is so distasteful, so unworthy of your time or participation, why take the time to bother replying in it? If it's all about Venger and wanting to attack people, why stoop so low as to get in the mud with me? Is it that you just can't resist the temptation to play hall monitor? You know, you can't ignore someone, you have to demonstrate your magnanimus maturity by correcting me, for my benefit.

Venger
P.S. I noticed you did not address whether you thought using WLTYYYD is a valid strategy or not. Now, that would seem to make your post OFF TOPIC. It did nothing but express your opinions about me, not about anything related to Civ. Ironic, no, complaining someone posts nothing but off topic attacks by posting an off topic attack?

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by Crustacian on 05-13-2000 11:06 PM BTW Venger you once said that republic was necissary (as compared to WLPD which you said was not)in the beginning of this thread but it is not. In your oppinion it is, but you can have a challenge and play the ai as a despot all the way through if you want.... it is all the same thing. But if you did play the AI as a despot all the way through would you call every one who used rep or dem weak?

No. I would consider someone who can win as a despot on DBM7 pretty damn skilled though! However, a government type I would not consider a crutch because the government can only be used a certain way - it is not a game effect.

quote: The manual is a point of referance. A good argumant needs one that is mutually acceptable. By it your argument is completly lost. But you say you don't hold to it and even try to interpret the intent of the designers. Hardly anyone agrees with your interpritation, and that is for SP civ, not MP civ.

As JERandall points out, it's not really possible to interpret the intent without finding and asking them.

As to agreement, that someone disagrees is no suprise. I would offer that some people have looked at this issue in a new way, and may over time come somewhat to the conclusion that WLTYYYD was designed to be an ends, not a means to an end.

quote: I think an MP game with max lux settings of 20-30% would make an interesting variation, but 100% (tho never necissary to get WLPD results in my games) is allowable by the game if you have a govt that allows that much and have enough bucks to pay your expenses while you do.

I'd probably say 40% as a good hard cap. If you bump to Rep early, sometimes you need it just to maintain order. By the late game 40% will give you WLTYYYD nearly in perpetuity, but it won't be as easy to make WLTYYYD occur wide with a large number of cities with a hard 40% cap.

Venger

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk on 05-13-2000 10:08 PM Somehow, I don't think he's using it.

Sure I am, I just respond point by point inserting my own quote tags...

Venger
P.S. Albert, in a can is PURE GENIUS. Better not post much or you'll blow it with your next promotion...

[Oldman]

Please Mr Ming, Sir...

Do we still have the 150 post limit on these threads? if so please keep an eye on this one!!!!! i mean, "WLTXD crutch for weaker players"

It cannot, will not, should not be described as a crutch for weaker players!! if you don't like the ruling, don't use it in single player, if it's mulitplayer, organise so as not to allow it!! and for occ, it's part of the style of play, we can win at deity without too much hassle, but wltxd addeds another element in that we need to manage. It's bloody hard to use it in such a perfectionist way so as not to lose out on research or earnings. If you've not tried it, give it a go in occ and just see how hard it is to achieve the finish times that some of us get!!!
Ok, that's my bit said, i'm done - stick a fork in me!!!!!

------------------
Oldman,

"There are not more than 5 musical notes..." - Sun Tzu
"There are not more than 5 primary colours..." - Sun Tzu
"There are not more than 5 cardinal tastes..." - Sun Tzu

And we build an Academy for this guy


Edited: those bloody smilies!!
[This message has been edited by Oldman (edited May 15, 2000).]

[Sten Sture]

quote: Originally posted by Smash on 05-13-2000 02:59 PM I'm really starting to dislike the "reply with quote" feature

LoL!

quote: Originally posted by Venger multiple times over a short span You are not allowed to post LoLs in my very serious thread

Ooops, I forgot about that...

quote: Originally posted by Venger multiple times over a short span You are not funny, you vagrant sodomite, I am the only one allowed to use sarcasm in this thread

Looks like I have been sent home by the official goose-stepping civ nazi.

Seriously, this clown shows up with a b2-15-99 sign-up date and 5 posts, and then he starts flaming everyone twenty times a day in one thread to build up his post count. I want to bet that the one we know as "Venger" was not the original Venger that posted here in 98/99. If I were going to get a DL, I would look for an old relatively unused login, and email Markos that I had come back after a lengthy absence and forgotten my password. Poof! Reset password, and a very old login becomes a DL.

Now I have nothing against Venger, old or new, because I think he is just posting on this thread to try to rile everyone up. He should be commended for selecting an appropriate topic and effectively barbing his fellow Apolytoners. I am just curious who he was before taking on the Venger name...

Any guesses??

[Oldman]

Mr Ming sir...

You are very diplomatic aren't you!!!! are you sure you're not a politician??? sorry, no offence intended!!!!

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by Sten Sture on 05-15-2000 11:28 AM Looks like I have been sent home by the official goose-stepping civ nazi.

Huh?

quote: Seriously, this clown shows up with a b2-15-99 sign-up date and 5 posts, and then he starts flaming everyone twenty times a day in one thread to build up his post count. I want to bet that the one we know as "Venger" was not the original Venger that posted here in 98/99. If I were going to get a DL, I would look for an old relatively unused login, and email Markos that I had come back after a lengthy absence and forgotten my password. Poof! Reset password, and a very old login becomes a DL.

He he he...now THAT'S funny...I'd be curious to read my old posts. I wonder if the few that were there would be of the same style. Somehow I imagine they'd sound the same as they do now. For a clown...

quote: Now I have nothing against Venger, old or new, because I think he is just posting on this thread to try to rile everyone up.

Nope.

quote: He should be commended for selecting an appropriate topic and effectively barbing his fellow Apolytoners.

Damn, I'm still waiting to see the famous unprecipitated Venger attack post...

quote: I am just curious who he was before taking on the Venger name...

I was a girl named Freida...

Venger

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by Oldman on 05-15-2000 05:46 AM Please Mr Ming, Sir... Do we still have the 150 post limit on these threads? if so please keep an eye on this one!!!!! i mean, "WLTXD crutch for weaker players" It cannot, will not, should not be described as a crutch for weaker players!!

Read the title again. It was "crutch for weaker players?". Note the question mark. I wanted to posit this as a question open to debate, rather than a ruling or just pulled-from-ass observation.

quote: if you don't like the ruling, don't use it in single player, if it's mulitplayer, organise so as not to allow it!! and for occ, it's part of the style of play, we can win at deity without too much hassle, but wltxd addeds another element in that we need to manage. It's bloody hard to use it in such a perfectionist way so as not to lose out on research or earnings. If you've not tried it, give it a go in occ and just see how hard it is to achieve the finish times that some of us get!!! Ok, that's my bit said, i'm done - stick a fork in me!!!!!

That you can't win OCC with it really isn't a convincing argument.

Venger

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by Ming on 05-15-2000 12:37 PM He will respond in his "normal" fashion... you can count on that. However, I will disagree with you on another point. He has actually raised some good points in other threads. Not all of his posts come across like many of his posts here do.

Well damn, thanks Ming. I think my participation here is just as useful, but I'll take the fair words nonetheless.

Venger

[vee4473]

Hi,

I didn't have time to read all of the posts for this topic, I read about half of them, so I apologize if what I am about to say has already been said..

Venger seems to think that the designers didn't intend to have "we love the x day" used incessantly to promote population growth.

And that he could understand it if there was a limit to how long or often you could use it...

My only question to Venger to try and convince him that the designers intended it to be used as long as any player wanted is this.

(Aside from the fact that the designer's specifically hinted in the manual that it is great for pop. growth.)

If the designer's never intended it to be used for as long as a player wanted, why didn't they program a limit into the game?

And I don't want to hear that they just overlooked it...I'm SURE that after deciding to include such a powerful option, they would have decided to include a limit to it as well...but it seems like they didn't want to limit it.

[Bohlen]

Ming, please close this thread. It has become a boxing match and a very silly one at that.

[Ming]

You could be right, but I doubt it. It is pretty tough to convince the admin on old lost passwords, because we don't want somebody using another's log on... but it could have happened

But this has just gotten so silly, because it comes down to a matter of opinion. He wants to ignore the fact that even the manual states that dramatic growth will occur. But, that's his opinion, and he is welcome to it.
But there is one more fact here. After ALL of his MANY posts, almost everybody still disagrees with him
[This message has been edited by Ming (edited May 15, 2000).]

[Steve Clark]

quote: Originally posted by Sten Sture who I always look forward to hear from Now I have nothing against Venger, old or new, because I think he is just posting on this thread to try to rile everyone up. He should be commended for selecting an appropriate topic and effectively barbing his fellow Apolytoners.

Yeah, I would agree with that. If you look around at some of the other thread here and in other forums, venger comes across as a *****. Yes, I know, that is an insulting thing to say. In every forum I've been involved with, there are at least one person who is insecure enough to really want to have people respond heatedly to opinions and arrogant enough to trying to control the interpretation of those opinions.

I come to the point now that I don't read his posts anymore. That is my right and of course, my opinion. And please, Mr. venger, don't take this apart and respond to every single word, it is not that important.

[Ming]

He will respond in his "normal" fashion... you can count on that.

However, I will disagree with you on another point. He has actually raised some good points in other threads. Not all of his posts come across like many of his posts here do.

Everybody posts here for different reasons. He is welcome to his reasons...

[War4ever]

Venger, i would have to say that although you didn't start the war... you have no problem adding fuel to the fire. Two wrongs don't make it right, and retaliating to insults is showing a lack of maturity ..... although i must admit i find this thread creative and some of your humour interesting

That all said, how people interpret the rules is their opinion, just like your own. As long as everyone respects each others opinions, then nothing is taken personally...... thus we have no accusations or misunderstandings

The beauty of Apolyton is the difference of opoinion, and comraderie which go hand and hand , along with a willingness of die hard fans to ask and reply to the many topics of this great game.

Venger, i seriously doubt you will find many who will play without the possibility of WLTKD's ........maybe in time , but no one now i think is really interested based on the fact that no one is really convinced of your stance. I think the best point you raised is the one of the interpretation of the rules.......... this has validity as there is no way to know what the programmers wanted without sending a request by email or such

[rah]

I agree War4, It is a matter of opinion. Venger has argued his point long and hard (some may think too hard, but this is a forum) but he doesn't seem to have influenced anyone. All his effort has gone for naught since I doubt anyone will change due to this discussion, (some may take it up as a challange however and if the do, more power to them) He sure did rile up the crew though and that's always fun. I am surprised that some of the regulars were so easy to bait. But again that what keeps it interesting around here. We probably need a few other vengers around for fun. (especially if he ever learns when enough is enough and it just becomes tiresome) I would do a beating a dead horse joke but AH might get offended.

RAH

[Oldman]

Rah, I made a "Get off your high horse joke" to AH on his "Bribing units is cheating" thread, but he didn't even acknowledge it!!! maybe i scared him, with my rapier like wit!!! ha ha!!

[Steve Clark]

War4ever! Is that you my friend? How did your old name get dragged into this??

[Oldman]

Aaahhhhh!!! it's like a big ol' reunion!!! isn't that soooooo sweet!!! it sort of gets you inside doesn't it?!!?!?

Don't mean to pick on you guys!!! - have we hit 150 yet?????

[vik]

war3ever,

(i couldn't resist)

war4ever,

One disagreement on your assessment of the designer's intent: as was said earlier, I believe it is irrelevant. If all the designers got together and said "Yah, the population explosion is exactly what we intended with the WLTxD, I still don't think you would answer Venger's question as he worded it. Even if they did intend the population explosion, it really does not answer if it is a so-called "crutch" for the "weaker" player?

So instead of focusing on the "righteousness" of whether to use WLTxD or not, I focused on the word "crutch."

I contend, as I have contended ever since page one of this thread (and I belive Venger acknowledged it), that if WLTxD is available to all players -- weak, mediocre, strong, and/or elite players -- then it is truly not a "crutch" for just the weaker players.


Agree with me you do? Hmmmmm?

[War4ever]

Rah, Steve , Oldman.... i got my proper handle back finally...... and I think i have it worked out for one night a week of MP..... say WEDNESDAYS Beaver and Ferrets unite and take up arms !!!!

Vik , i agree with what your saying, it really is irrelevant.... however that aside, its not a crutch but a reward for hard and perfectly timed playing. It took me awhile to master WLTKD and i guarrantee that if you don't learn to use it , you will lose more than you will win.

No strat is perfect..... not one of them..... there are always mistakes and nuances that wreak havoc on any well conceived plan but done correctly, WLTKD is a force to reckon with and on a large map almost a necessity in MP especially if you are dueling an icser or another fast growth operative and we all know who they are

Its nice to see someone other than Alexanders Horse be the straw that stirs the pot.... perhaps we should rename Venger.... Strawberry

Anyways..... i am off to grease my abacus

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by vee4473 on 05-15-2000 10:18 PM My only question to Venger to try and convince him that the designers intended it to be used as long as any player wanted is this.

The same reason the powergraph is useless. They simply never forsaw what the code in the hand of a skilled player can do!

quote: (Aside from the fact that the designer's specifically hinted in the manual that it is great for pop. growth.)

But Civ wide, for 12 turns? I just find that level of growth a little nuts.

quote: If the designer's never intended it to be used for as long as a player wanted, why didn't they program a limit into the game? And I don't want to hear that they just overlooked it...I'm SURE that after deciding to include such a powerful option, they would have decided to include a limit to it as well...but it seems like they didn't want to limit it.

Why'd they do a number of things is a question to this day. That being said, why would you want to take advantage of something that seems so ridiculously powerful? It's one thing to have WLTYYYD, another to depend on it to win.

Venger