The Extremely Important and Very Serious Challenge - Page 2

finbar · May 27, 2001, 03:35

Where did you get to, Nappy?

Nap Bonaparte · May 27, 2001, 06:25

Sorry guys....I dozed off

finbar · May 27, 2001, 07:29

Quote:

Originally posted by Nap Bonaparte
Sorry guys....I dozed off

Tee-hee. That's what we figured. One too many Merlots, huh? Sneak was sending you some very loud wake-up calls via ICQ. Last time we'll trust him with an important mission.

Hydey · May 27, 2001, 07:44

HMMMMMM perhaps we have a DL here, I thought that only MING was silly enough to fall asleep while playing civ.

SuperSneak · May 27, 2001, 12:53

I guess those barbs just knocked you out, eh?

Well...it was a pretty good game...luckily my pathetic civilization was isolated from the world, so the shame of my poor play was my little secret. I have the hardest time figuring out what to jack up in my cities....trade, shields, food.
I think I'm building too many units too soon, but with happiness being such a ***** in Deity, I thought I had to have two military units in each city?

I'll practice some more.
I can play my Tuesday early, your Wednesday night if you're up for it? I'd like to try simul...

finbar · May 27, 2001, 20:16

Simul sh*ts on turn-based for speed of play, Sneak. I suspect Nappy's problem wasn't so much the vat of Merlot as turn-based boredom. Well, okay, it was a bit of both. Simul does have its problems in wartime but switching to turn-based within the game - the combatants follow colour turn order, everyone else plays normally - seems to solve the problems.

Raz's complaint that simul interferes with the diplomacy side of the game is also easily fixed. A simul game can't proceed until everyone hits Enter. If you want to negotiate with someone, have your turn, do your negotiations, then hit Enter.

I can't imagine why yesterday's game was turn-based.

SuperSneak · May 28, 2001, 02:39

So you're saying that if you are white and I am purple, you get to kick me in the nuts first?!? That seems a bit odd...but I guess its the same reasoning that rules the rest of the games....

Yes...one of the big reasons I avoid Civ MP is because of the god awful time it takes. Let me just be frank: me sitting in front of this box for hours and hours does not necessarily endear me to the lady.

Anything that will speed up the process is good for my health.

Hydey · May 28, 2001, 07:12

I take finbar will host all game from now on, ok now I know never to host any games with finbar. No problem at least I will not sook about weather it is simul or not

finbar · May 28, 2001, 10:02

Quote:

Originally posted by Hydey
I take finbar will host all game from now on, ok now I know never to host any games with finbar. No problem at least I will not sook about weather it is simul or not

You have a problem hosting simul games? I would happily do so if I could. They simply move more quickly.

finbar · May 28, 2001, 10:11

Quote:

Originally posted by SuperSneak
So you're saying that if you are white and I am purple, you get to kick me in the nuts first?!? That seems a bit odd...but I guess its the same reasoning that rules the rest of the games....

Well, the problem with simul war seems to be that players with quicker connections - or even the host, regardless - have an advantage. They can move units more quickly. In fact, someone reported an opposite extreme - players were waiting till their opponent moved, then countering. Games were stalling while the opponents tried to outwait each other.

Fighting in colour turn order simply means that you revert - within the game, by agreement, and honouring the agreement - to the way war is fought in normal MP games. You pummel each other in turn. Seems the most logical solution to me.

Quote:

Yes...one of the big reasons I avoid Civ MP is because of the god awful time it takes. Let me just be frank: me sitting in front of this box for hours and hours does not necessarily endear me to the lady.

Anything that will speed up the process is good for my health.

Yes. Well, it has been argued in the past that Civ isn't a game of speed chess, that it's a tactical exploration and all that. That's all true. On the other hand, anything that keeps things moving has to be a good thing. And most of the simul problems are fixable. War, as mentioned above; and diplomacy, by simply dealing with it before you hit the Enter key. Small prices to pay. methinks.

Hydey · May 28, 2001, 18:20

I have no problem hosting in simul finbar, just have to check a box for F**k sake. When people request that it be turn based , I think tomy self , ok lets play turn based, I prefer it. If you had of said before I started that you would only play in simul, then things may have gone to a vote.

It seems you prefer to sook later rather than ask first.

finbar · May 29, 2001, 00:22

Quote:

Originally posted by Hydey
I have no problem hosting in simul finbar, just have to check a box for F**k sake. When people request that it be turn based , I think tomy self , ok lets play turn based, I prefer it. If you had of said before I started that you would only play in simul, then things may have gone to a vote.

It seems you prefer to sook later rather than ask first.

1. We haven't started a turn-based game in eons.
2. On that basis I assumed it would be simul.
3. No one circulated the fact that they preferred turn-based.
4. There was no discussion about the style of the game.
5. You didn't tell anyone you preferred simul.
6. I played because I have never said I would only play in simul.
7. Get your frigging facts straight.

Rasputin · May 29, 2001, 00:49

Well I still am not convinved that simul is better nor faster, . Though I hav eonly palyed a few games..

From the few game si palyed, i found i was still waiting the usual time for others to finish what they were doing. i would move my pieces and still hav eto wait.. so wheres the benifit,

Hydey · May 29, 2001, 07:01

Finbar = sooky sooky la la

1. How long is an eon ?

2. Never assume anything , the four worlds form again and yet again

3. Raz has posted many times that he dislikes simul, perhaps he is a no-one

4. No discussion , I was just told to hurry up and start

5. I do not prefer simul, that would explain why I never told anyone I did

6. Yes you did play , I never said you did not

7. I always try to keep frigging out of any arguments I have

Deity Dude · May 29, 2001, 17:46

Quote:

Originally posted by finbar

Fighting in colour turn order simply means that you revert - within the game, by agreement, and honouring the agreement - to the way war is fought in normal MP games. You pummel each other in turn. Seems the most logical solution to me.

Please tell me if I am wrong here, but, in a game that was entirely turnbased it would be expected that purple would get the 1st strike as often as white. Under this scenario white always gets the first strike. That to me seems like a pretty big advantage or am I misunderstanding somethng about how you do this.

Deity Dude · May 29, 2001, 18:07

What about other turn sensitive situations like hut tipping, barb ransom etc..

Hydey · May 29, 2001, 18:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Deity Dude
What about other turn sensitive situations like hut tipping, barb ransom etc..

ooooopppppppsssssss finbar must be forgetting those.

deity · May 30, 2001, 07:42

Hang on Aussie dudes (as oposed to other dudes!)

finbar is correct.

The core Aussie players voted on all these key settings, including simul WAR!

The vote was for simul war!
And not just simul turns and switching to turn order as per finbar's explanation - which I MUCH PREFER.

I think Raz and Hydey may have refined their views since the vote (well, Raz is from Queensland so he doesn't get the vote...)

I'd expect all Aussie games to be setup as per the vote unless discussed otherwise.

Hydey may have been nice to me by making it turn-based in case I hot joined but I really didn't want that since it was unlikely I could play.

And Nappy would have expected simul too, I'm sure. That's why he fell asleep!

I reckon ALL games should be simul till at least 1000BC then switch to turn order at some point, depending on the consensus within the game.

Rasputin · May 30, 2001, 11:09

well that seems rather limiting to say "all aussies games wil be set up this way"

Does this mean any newcomer must learn simul the hard way??

As i discovered against lowang Simul war is not possible in civ , it wasnt designed that way. IMHO.

any lag severely handicaps the slower mover.

If that vote is binding then it appears that I have truly played my last "aussie" game. I wil lhav eto find another batch of NON-SIMUL palyers ....

Rasputin · May 30, 2001, 11:13

and i know i dont get a vote as a queesnlander, but as an ex Western australian my votes would be

Human city Bribe -- No
Bribe AI -- No (for the same reason as above, if its not ok to bribe humans why discriminate?)
Unit Bribing -- No
Alliances -- Yes
Simul War -- no
Simul Turns -- No

How come the others didnt vote on last one !!!!!!

Deity Dude · May 30, 2001, 16:07

Sorry, I really wasn't trying to get involved in your game rules. I just hear it said quite often that if you switch to turn based for war that it eliminates the disadvantage due to connection speed. This statement is true but IMHO it switches it from a connection speed advantage to a color advantage.

In an entirely turnbased game, it would be expected that purple would get the first strike as often as white in a purple/white conflict. In a simul move/turnbased war game, white always gets the first strike. If there is something wrong with my logic please let me know, but it seems to me that this is just as bad as giving the advantage to the guy with the quicker connection.

Anyways, maybe my comments belong in another thread but I saw the discussion so I jumped in.

Hydey · May 30, 2001, 18:30

Pull your head in Deity before I rip it off and SHlT down your neck.
Those dodgy rules you mention are for Aussies only games or more precisely for your games as others don't care.
As this game was a game for other non Aussies to play and I was host and I was requested for it not to be simul and you suggested you might hotjoin soon into the session, can't hotjoin in simul, I as host made it turn based.

deity · May 31, 2001, 00:33

Quote:

Originally posted by Rasputin
and i know i dont get a vote as a queesnlander, but as an ex Western australian my votes would be

Human city Bribe -- No
Bribe AI -- No (for the same reason as above, if its not ok to bribe humans why discriminate?)
Unit Bribing -- No
Alliances -- Yes
Simul War -- no
Simul Turns -- No

How come the others didnt vote on last one !!!!!!

OK Raz, I'll add you to the table tonight and update the other votes for Hydey. Raz didn't play for quite a while so he was not around when we voted.
I personally never liked simul except for the early game.
I was just talking about the players expectations based on prior discussions and votes.
Clearly Sneak and Nappy as well as finbar expected a simul game!

Deity Dude's comments are more than welcome IMHO.

We can have a calm and rational discussion and agree on our base settings.

deity · May 31, 2001, 00:49

Quote:

Originally posted by Deity Dude
Sorry, I really wasn't trying to get involved in your game rules. I just hear it said quite often that if you switch to turn based for war that it eliminates the disadvantage due to connection speed. This statement is true but IMHO it switches it from a connection speed advantage to a color advantage.

In an entirely turnbased game, it would be expected that purple would get the first strike as often as white in a purple/white conflict. In a simul move/turnbased war game, white always gets the first strike. If there is something wrong with my logic please let me know, but it seems to me that this is just as bad as giving the advantage to the guy with the quicker connection.

Anyways, maybe my comments belong in another thread but I saw the discussion so I jumped in.

Turn order STARTS at the point of the war break out; so if Purple attack it then moves to turn order. You don't restart the game you just play each turn in succession, only moving after the prior colour has moved. The honour system. (But we actually had voted for simul war as shown in the table)

Hydey · May 31, 2001, 07:18

Quote:

Originally posted by deity

Clearly Sneak and Nappy as well as finbar expected a simul game!

Well they never said so to the host before he set up the game did they.

Deity how about you play in games instead of posting about games you are not involved in.

SuperSneak · May 31, 2001, 11:29

Hold on, guys...I don't care which rules, style etc. are used.

I just enjoy playing. I don't like the unit bribe, generally...and Civ obviously has some war flaws...but let's be nice, ok?

Hydey was being very gracious in hosting...he even left a spot open for you, Deity...

The Aussie rules seem pretty tolerable...I expressed interest in simul games just to see if it was faster & better.
But I usually set aside several hours to play, so no biggie.

You've done just fine, nephew.

Deity Dude · May 31, 2001, 13:09

Quote:

Originally posted by deity

Turn order STARTS at the point of the war break out; so if Purple attack it then moves to turn order. You don't restart the game you just play each turn in succession, only moving after the prior colour has moved. The honour system. (But we actually had voted for simul war as shown in the table)

But who goes first on the initial attack. Let's say at the end of a simul turn my purple crusader is next to your white archer both on flat terrain. Whoever gets first shot is probably gonna win. Who goes first on the next turn. Am I missing something here or what. Or are you saying whoever has the best connection speed will get first shot then it goes to turn order if so that's still a huge advantage to the person with the best connection speed.

Alexander's Horse · May 31, 2001, 20:12

Quote:

Originally posted by Hydey

Deity how about you play in games instead of posting about games you are not involved in.

You have been quite obnoxious with some of your posts lately Hydey - but I quite agree with you on this point. Someone who hardly ever shows up shouldn't be telling us how to play. That's what started the whole argument in the first place! Someone disappeared for yonks, another went overseas, we changed the way we were playing and then when they came back we had a rather unseemly dispute!

That said

I'm happy to play whatever setting are the consensus in any particular game

I'm prepared to be flexible on simult war for example

I just wanna play.

But unit bribing REALLY SH#TS ME

War4ever · May 31, 2001, 20:40

Quote:

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse

But unit bribing REALLY SH#TS ME

perhaps stacking is in order....... whats wrong with bribing units ?

finbar · May 31, 2001, 20:50

*finbar returns from Brisbane to discover nothing much has changed*