GGS Project Overview

(The purpose of this thread is to give a rough idea what this forum is about and how is our project doing. This post will be apdated when necessary, and the rest of the thread consists of weekly status reports. There may also be occasional additional reports as well as corrections to possible mistakes in the reports, but it is advised that you do not reply to anything on this thread. Start a new one instead.)

What is GGS?

The acronym stands for Guns, Germs & Steel: Tools of Conquest. It is an ambitious development project which aims to take the Civlilization type of gaming to a next level by way of taking the core concept of Civ -- a game of guiding a civilization through the extent of whole human history -- and step-by-step re-engineering it to meet modern requirements for realism, level of detail and player interaction. Nothing is sacred to us, and we are taking a critical stand on all aspects of traditional civ-type games in order to reach our goal. GGS will also incorporate many advanced new features such as supply/demand-based economy, diseases and intricate domestic politics.

The project started off in March 2000 at the Civ3 General / Suggestions forum at Apolyton. Since then, it has become apparent that GGS will be anything but another civ-clone because we feel that some fundamental changes have to be made to overcome the pitfalls of the genre. However, the focus of the game will remain to be in the same classic ingredients that made Sid Meier's Civilization a hit in the first place: an opportunity for the player to build a nation of his own, compete with others like him and have a feeling of writing history while at it. Thus, anyone interested in Civilization type gaming should keep an open mind about GGS as well.

Why are we doing this?

The goals of GGS are very ambitious, though the project is still in its infancy. This is indeed a long-term effort which we are undertaking, we have no illusions about that. Furthermore, the game itself will have aspects that are going to be radically different from contemporary civ games, which inevitably begs the question: how do we know that this will work out?

Frankly, we don't. There isn't yet a proof of concept for GGS, so most developers are acting upon faith. Thy are motivated by a belief that simply making a Civ-clone is not sufficient to revolutionarize the genre, and that the rewards of of their efforts overcome the risks. Some of us have been around since the very early phase, and have witnessed the sudden raise of enthusiam as well as the subsequent fall of interest which are characteristic of many fan-based projects. By now GGS has formed a dedicated, though small core of developers who are willing to push things forward. Perhaps slowly, but with determination!

As for the need for yet another game, we believe that we are sufficiently unique compared to other on-going development projects. The current and near-future commercial alternatives seem to be too conservative and relying too heavily on the Civ legacy. Besides, our software and whole development process is public instead of proprietory. And unlike Freeciv, the most successful open-source civ so far, GGS is not trying to make an open version of an existing game but to create something novel. There are other projects to be considered as well, perhaps the most promising being Clash of Civilizations, but we feel that our objectives differ enough: Clash strives to create a strong AI whereas GGS will focus on multiplayer and realism aspects.

Who are the developers?

This is a fully open project to which anyone can volunteer to participate. We do not have a formal organization structure and basicly all contributors are equal regardless of whether they write extensive design documents or just post questions on the forum. Same applies to programmers, though at some point there will have to be some division of responsibilities to manage the code repository. But all in all, we are a meritocracy in the sense that only your contributions matter, not who you are or how long have you been here. Ever since the beginning the active developers have been a heterogeneous group of different natiolities, world-views, opinions and professions, which has proved to be a great asset.

How do we operate?

GGS is an open-source project and will remain as such. Everything we do is open to public scrutiny, and if someone has a better way of designing/programming any part of the game, small or large, he is free to do so. The only restrictions are that all contributions should be credited to the right person, and whatever changes are made should also be public. The motivation to choose an open development model is that it makes it easier for newcomers to participate and it allows us to leverage existing open-source as well as Civilization fan communities. The development is divided roughly into this Apolyton forum, which focuses on design issues, and our mailing list which deals with programming details. Naturally programmers keep an eye and participate on design, but in this forum all the discussion is kept in a level that a non-programmer can understand. The point of the separation is to keep the design discussions from being cluttered by pedantic programming issues, and to avoid the show being run by programmers simply because no one else understands them.

In this forum, the design issues can be dealt with in two ways: either by participating a discussion on whatever topic interests you, or by writing more formal design documents. The purpose of design documentation is to summarize the results of the free-form brainstroming that's going on, so that we would have some structure to our vision. GGS is a vast project, and by no means can all the relevant information be kept in the heads of individuals. Design documents, or "models" as we also call them, have a rough hierarchical structure starting from accurately named "design document". It provides an overview of all the design aspects and will have references to appropriate models. Each model contains a description of one aspect of the game, such as economy, religion, turn order and so on. A potential contributor should not be appalled by this apparent formalism: writing a model is not supposed to be a big task. Basicly any flimsy attempt of writing down your ideas can be qualified as draft version of a model, which can be posted on this board for discussion and improvement. Similarly, anyone can make a new version of an existing model by simply informing the person responsible for the model and writing the necessary changes. Once a model is mature enough to be of potential use, it can be approved with an informal vote, just to make sure that the concensus is behind the design.

For programming-related issues we have a dedicated mailing list at sourceforge. Sourceforge also provides us with CVS and perhaps other functions, but we are not yet using them. The choice of language for GGS is C++, and the game will at first run only in Windows environment. In the future there may be ports to other platforms, but not very soon. Our goals are to write modular code and use object-oriented approach in order to tackle the complexity inherent in our plans. At the moment, the core framework and architecture of the game is still under development, but once that's done we can expect to switch into an incremental development, so that the public would be able to try out working demos/prototypes of the game as it evolves.

Apart from Apolyton and Sourceforge, anyone who is interested may check out IRC channel #ggs at Undernet. That's a place where developers and interested individuals can gather to chat and kill some time. Logs of meetings are usually posted on the mailing list. Finally, a good place to search for GGS related stuff is our website at ggstoc.sourceforge.net. We are trying to keep it updated with all the relevant documentation, new graphics, binaries and news.

How can you participate?

Simply post comments and questions on this forum. That's how easy it is. All the questions (especially "dumb" ones) are welcome because they keep us alert and may bring up important overlooked issues. On a more dedicated level, you could see if there are any aspects of the game which you have some ideas on, and write a model. Programmers are advised to subscribe to the mailing list (see contact information below) and start asking questions there. Artists don't yet have much to do, but soon there will certainly be a great need for such talents so just post something on the forum or the list and stick around. Anyone interested in helping on our website, contact the webmasters.

Contact information:

Website: ggstoc.sourceforge.net
Sourceforge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/ggstoc/ (see 'lists' for the mailing list archives and subscriptions)
IRC: #ggs at Undernet (appropriate meeting times can be agreed upon on this forum)


(If you have any suggestions how to improve or update this overview, start a new thread or PM me. Please do not reply in this thread.)

From 21st to 27th May 2001

• Apolyton updated it's boards, a great time for us to have a second start ourselves
  
• I returned from self-imposed exile (studies!), so now there is one more active participant again
  
• Some hassle with turn order, but now it's final: simultaneous preplanned! (Granted, it was declared "final" last year when there was a vote upon it, but that didn't put a stop to the discussion.)
  
• Programmers more or less agree that a realistic goal is to get the basic software framework in decent shape by autumn, which is when we can start coding the models for real
  
• It was decided that there will be new versions of UI demos before that
  
• Stats for week 21:
  
  Apolyton
  1 New topic, 8 Active topics, 8 Active posters, 41 Replies
  Sourceforge mailing list
  9 New messages, 3 Active posters
  IRC meetings
  Total time 3h 56min, participation 4 people

(I intend to do these on sundays from now on)

From 28th May to 3rd June 2001

• Design Doc updated to version 0.3 (only about three months late...)
  
• Sunday's meeting lasted over 8 hours! Many thanks to all participants, anyone else who's interested may find the log on our mailing list.
  
• The software architecture will most likely be event based rather than procedural. We've got some rough sketches of how the event based architecture will work and a few lines of code to demonstrate it, so it seems we can get this system up and running in no time.
  
• Stats for week 22:
  
  Apolyton
  4 New topic, 8 Active topics, 5 Active posters, 32 Replies
  Sourceforge mailing list
  12 New messages, 3 Active posters
  IRC meetings
  Total time 8h 5min, participation 5 people

(Also posted on the website)

From 4th to 11th June 2001

• Military/Combat model started as a very preliminary draft.
  
• Still discussing the consequences of event-based software architecture, but meanwhile there was some progress on UI controls. Expect a new UI demo out in near future!
  
• Uploading of files is made easier to the website, but there are still some problems. Hopefully this will make the GGS site a more flexible tool for all developers, and a more up-to-date medium for the rest of the world.
  
• Stats for week 23:
  
  Apolyton
  2 New topics, 6 Active topics, 5 Active posters, 14 Replies
  Sourceforge mailing list
  11 New messages, 5 Active posters
  IRC meetings
  Total time 6:59, participation 4 people

From 11th to 17th June 2001

• Nothing happened this week.
  
• Stats for week 24:
  
  Apolyton
  0 New topics, 8 Active topics, 7 Active posters, 30 Replies
  Sourceforge mailing list
  15 New messages, 6 Active posters
  IRC meetings
  Total time 6h 18Min, participation 5 people

From 18th to 24th June 2001

• Weekly status update is 6 and a half days late. Sorry about that. However, the information is still accurate and applies to week 25.
  
• There is a slight peak in forum activity, thanks to a few new interested people dropping by. Welcome to all of you!
  
• Some chat and socket code was tested successfully. It looks like we can program after all! Hooray!
  
• Stats for week 25:
  
  Apolyton
  5 New topics, 12 Active topics, 11 Active posters, 42 Replies
  Sourceforge mailing list
  10 New messages, 5 Active posters
  IRC meetings
  Total time 5h 54Min, participation 4 people

From 25th June to 1st July 2001

• I've been away this week, so I don't know what has been going on. Anyone who knows what's happening may post the incredible new developments right here... just try to squeeze them under 20.000 letters.
  
• Stats for week 26:
  
  Apolyton
  1 New topic, 10 Active topics, 8 Active posters, 34 Replies
  Sourceforge mailing list
  12 New messages, 4 Active posters
  IRC meetings
  Total time 0h 0Min, participation 0 people

From 2nd to 8th of July 2001

• I am beginning to come to a realization that I may not be the right person to do these reports. My own activity is sporadic and at best, and I have not followed all the discussions neither in the mailing list or at Apolyton. So, if someone else thinks that he has some insight to the project, and time to write about it, please feel free to do so. I can still collect and post the statistics though.
  
• On programming side, we'll probably use an open-source thread library instead of writing our own wrappers. Threads and synchronization issues are hampering the development somewhat, but we're all optimistic and hope to solve the problems sooner or later.
  
• Stats for week 27:
  
  Apolyton
  0 New topics, 6 Active topics, 9 Active posters, 34 Replies
  Sourceforge mailing list
  12 New messages, 4 Active posters
  IRC meetings
  Total time 4h 16Min, participation 4 people

[ElmoTheElk]

Now that finally most of us have return from our vacations, we can continue work on ggs. And there is much to do!

We finally have to start programming our stuff, or continue where we already started. We have made some sort of plan who does what.

We have some new members! Mark, Nath and Darkstar are helping us more and more with some design issues. Darkstar is also going to help us program ggs, starting off with the map.

Much to do about the map, we might after all make it 'spherical' and maybe even 3d later on! Just speculations though.

With Joker finally return from his long holiday, he started the desgin issues again. And it should give some results now.

Hopefully we can really set things off now to make the game we all dream about playing already...

Elmo

[The Joker]

I agree. We should be able to accelerate progress this fall, at least from the slow pace that has prevailed the past few months.

I too will post more and work more, now that I am getting over the introduction programs at university, which were taking nearly all of my time. I hope we will all follow Elmo's good examble.

What an odd smiley, don't you think?

[Leland]

From 15th to 21st of October 2001

• The map discussion continues: should we use tiles or free-form polygons, and should it be 2d or 3d? It appears that both ways have their tradeoffs and neither is ultimately better than the other, so more debating is needed.
  
• GGS website host is getting unreliable, we might need to switch to another server.
  
• Stats for week 42:
  
  Apolyton
  1 New topic, 4 Active topics, 6 Active posters, 16 Replies
  Sourceforge mailing list
  1 New message, 1 Active poster
  IRC meetings
  Total time 1h 57Min, participation 2 people

[Leland]

From 22nd to 28th of October 2001

• It seems we have no idea what kind of map we want, or which solutions are technically feasible.
  
• There was some preliminary discussion about technology model.
  
• GGS website now resides at Sourceforge servers. On the other hand, our sourceforge mailing list seems to have some problems which should probably be solved sooner or later.
  
• Stats for week 43:
  
  Apolyton
  2 New topics, 9 Active topics, 10 Active posters, 35 Replies
  Sourceforge mailing list
  7 New message, 3 Active poster
  IRC meetings
  Total time 0h 0Min, participation 0 people

[Leland]

From 3rd to 9th of December 2001

• The activity around GGS practically stopped during November, but now it seems that we are fighting for survival once more. We are not quite dead yet: there are about 10 or so more or less active participants (based on the vote turnaround), and the majority seems to think that simply simplifying our goals might make GGS a feasible project. At the moment, it is not yet clear how exactly can we reduce our goal-set to reasonable levels, but at least the first steps to recovery are taken.
  
• The proponents of vector-based map have gone silent, it seems that a tile-based one will be used. Nothing is set in stone at this moment though.
  
• Programmers are trying to pick up the pieces and for a long time they are actually trying to do something. At the moment there are four potential programmers involved, and there's some progress with the UI as well as general software design. In the near future, the code will probably be put to CVS to facilitate cooperative programming efforts.
  
• The Sourceforge project is moving! Instead of the old, misnamed civ3 project there has been another one in existence for quite some time, and last week a new mailing list was started in the ggstoc project and the old one is going to be gradually removed from usage. Anyone interested in programming efforts, please subscribe at http://lists.sourceforge.net/mailman...ggstoc-general. Our website (ggstoc.sourceforge.net) has been located under the new project for some time now, and CVS will be activated in there as well.
  
• Our webmaster resigned from duty, if someone is interested in the job please contact us through the mailing list. On another note, the domain "gunsgermsandsteel.com" is no longer in use, update your links appropriately.
  
• Stats for week 49:
  
  Apolyton
  3 New topics, 6 Active topics, 9 Active posters, 35 Replies
  Sourceforge mailing list
  32 New messages, 6 Active posters
  IRC meetings
  Total time 2h 10Min, participation 3 people

[Leland]

From 10th to 16th of December 2001

• GGS is still dying. Help!
  
• No suggestions of reduced goals have been made. According to a poll it seems that social and economical models are consider the most important features, though majority of the voters regarded all the models equally significant.
  
• CVS is ready to be used any time now. It's just a matter of agreeing upon how to organize the source code: the current UI demo is a mess in this regard. Also, some changes in the UI are under construction.
  
• Stats for week 50:
  
  Apolyton
  1 New topic, 9 Active topics, 6 Active posters, 31 Replies
  Sourceforge mailing list
  25 New messages, 6 Active posters
  IRC meetings
  Total time 7h 29Min, participation 4 people

[Leland]

From 17th to 23rd of December 2001

• Don't mind us, we are just trying to die here! (Seriously, it would be nice to get the designers at least moderately interested in this project again, now it seems only the programmers are excited.)
  
• There was discussion about turn order and technology models, the latter seems to still be underway but I think it's safe to say that we've got the turn order covered as well as is appropriate at this point of development.
  
• CVS directory tree is ready. We're hoping that the rethought UI (the old one was rather clumsy) can be put there as soon as possible for all of us to wonder. The point is that CVS allows us to finally share our code and thus it should theoretically be easier for us to code something, as well as for new coders to join in the project (the lack of clear source code repository has driven away some people in the past).
  
• Stats for week 51:
  
  Apolyton
  2 New topics, 8 Active topics, 7 Active posters, 19 Replies
  Sourceforge mailing list
  11 New messages, 2 Active posters
  IRC meetings
  Total time 3h 39Min, participation 3 people

[dervish]

I like this book called "Guns, Germs and Steel" and in fact I managed to read few pages of it. I think it's good that you are trying to bring these ideas from the book to the game. Frankly speaking that's exactly what I thought when I first read this book. I thought to myself - WOW!!! It would be nice if some of these concepts and ideas were incorparated to the game!!!! But, then, all of a sudden, I thought, hey, there is no way, it can't be that I am the only one with brains to read this book.

I love this idea of the book and I love this idea in the game!!

[Kal-el]

Is anyone still working on this project?

I am in the process of reading the book and have tried to incorporate as much of Diamonds theories as I could into my mod, but there is only so much that can be done given the limited parameters of Civ3. I would love to a full blown game based soley on his theories.

Hope you guys haven't given up.

[Leland]

1. The project is more or less dead, somebody should just make it official.
   
2. It wasn't going to be that much based on the book anyway, because at least I think that it would've made a terribly boring game.

[Jon Shafer]

Alas, it seems that no one has the time, motiviation, or both to continue.

[Maniac]

Will we send a PM to MarkG to request a deletion/archivation of this forum?

[Nath]

First, we should probably save all the Docs and main threads etc. in case one of us continues some day.

I've learnt a fair bit of coding since this project died, and though I'll be busier than usual over the next six or seven months, I might do some game-building after that. Anyone mind if I use some ideas from GGS?

[VetLegion]

no Nath, I dont think anyone will mind

be sure to let us all know what/how you are doing!

damn even posting in this empty forum makes me sad

echo!

**echo**

[Maniac]

Hmm. Did I hear a voice in these empty ruins???

[CapTVK]

Nope, just the echo of a passerby muttering: "all that effort and enthusiasm, all wasted....".

Don't feel bad about it, most open source community projects don't make it further than a scourceforge page. Only a few projects that have a dedicated core and reach reach critical mass will remain in the end. The sad truth is that a lot of early effort and enthusiasm that went into GGS could have been spent on a more durable projects like Freeciv or CoC. You could have chosen to learn the ropes in the Freeciv project. Yet you chose to reinvent the wheel from scratch. Why?

[Rasbelin]

And Freeciv isn't yet the ultimate symbol of creativity in open source game development.

[CapTVK]

Originally posted by Rasbelin
And Freeciv isn't yet the ultimate symbol of creativity in open source game development.

Nope, that title goes to Liquid Wars


Freeciv is just the symbol of dedication, willpower, perseverance, labour and industry.

[Leland]

Originally posted by CapTVK
You could have chosen to learn the ropes in the Freeciv project. Yet you chose to reinvent the wheel from scratch. Why?

We figured that reinventing the wheel might be a fun thing to do. Then the whole thing fell apart from lack of cohesive "vision" and focus. Anyway, in the beginning it was discussed that we should've used freeciv codebase as much as possible, but those ideas faded away when it was realized that to do something really revolutionary instead of evolutionary freeciv wouldn't cut it. And because the developers (me included) were more fascinated daydreaming about possibilities and haggling over details than doing anything else. Not that I regret much... I derive great joy in haggling over details... just that it was bad for the project.

[Jon Shafer]

Too many ideas and not enough action.

[Rasbelin]

Well, GGS was a great idea and project, but IMO it wasn't enough organised and you should have been trying to get the coding started as it seem to have failed there.

Right now there's Freeciv, Clash of Civilizations, C-evo and CivQuest still out there, so we have quite many open source or freeware TBS empire building strategy games under development. However GGS would have been a nice add-on to this group.

[Nath]

I am still thinking of continuing this project in March or April. Anyone else interested?