Map Wrap-Around

[Pilfur]

Would anybody else agree with me that the east-west map wrap around should be optional? I understnad that it is there to simulate going around the planet, but I'd like to be able to think of my map as a region of a planet rather than of an entire planet. This is especially apt for the smaller map sizes.

[El hidalgo]

You can already do this in Civ2. I'm sure you will be able to in Civ3.

[Adm.Naismith]

Originally posted by Pilfur
Would anybody else agree with me that the east-west map wrap around should be optional?

Sorry, I dislike that "all flat" option.
I sustained (without success) the need for a proper spherical globe, maybe I can accept the deformed concept of toroid (a map that wrap not only west-est, but north-south also, so you can pass the pole, too).

I'm disappointed from the old style CIV 2 limited map, but I can't see any better from a "arena" like map with inpassable border.
Only my opinion, of course

[Quartz Dragon]

Originally posted by Adm.Naismith
Sorry, I dislike that "all flat" option.

The flat map is for theater scenarios.

[Grumbold]

I can see the use for solid border maps in scenarios and as an essentially harmless option it hurts no-one if included.

[007]

but i want a real globe, like in X-com

[Gramphos]

What fly out in space from a flat planet... That's impossible

[The Rusty Gamer]

What about allowing optional North-South wraparound like you can do in CTP?

[RonHiler]

Originally posted by 007
but i want a real globe, like in X-com

Sigh. http://www.rjcyberware.com

HTH

Ron

[007]

wow, that looks like the thing i was looking for
Thanks !!!
Hope thay can put as much graphix in as firaxis

[RonHiler]

Sure thing, my pleasure

If you go to the download page at the bottom, you can get our latest publically released version, 0.4.4.298, and you can play with the globe controls to see how it works for yourself. You'll have to generate a new world to look at (I really should upload a pre-genned world for casual testers to play with).

We're in Alpha now, but I think we'll hit Beta by no later than the end of the year. We're pretty far along. You're right, our graphics need work. They have always been a very low priority item. But very soon now they will begin getting a facelift (like within a couple of weeks).

Sunday I will be updating our public release with a new Alpha version, but it doesn't affect the globe (which is done, more or less). I try to update our public release once a week, but it doesn't always happen (the current one is three weeks old now).

Anyway, sorry to spam the group bragging about our game. But you did ask for a spherical world

Ron

[Darkknight]

Aaaghhh! Not the ****ing doughnut world anything but that. There's not even any sci-fi books with one.

BTW what X-Com game are you talking about I'm a bit behind I've only got X-Com interceptor. I've seen X-Com alliance but it didn't look great.

[Chuckles]

I still don't see why no one has made a map that has wrap-around on the sides, and proper wrap-around on top and bottom. i.e.-you go up at the top of the map and you show up half a screen over on the top of the map. Doughnut world is silly, but it was easy to play for people with limited thinking ability.

[Quartz Dragon]

Originally posted by Darkknight
BTW what X-Com game are you talking about I'm a bit behind I've only got X-Com interceptor. I've seen X-Com alliance but it didn't look great.

The first two, X-com: UFO Defense and X-Com: Terror From the Deep

[Sabre2th]

The map didn't bother me in civ2, but a 3d globe might be fun.

Unfortunately, Firaxis is probably already past the point where they can change something like this.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Chuckles
i.e.-you go up at the top of the map and you show up half a screen over on the top of the map.

It doesn't have to be half a screen over. In reality all the Northern\Southern most tiles should be touching. So you should be able to travel instantly to any of them.

[ancient]

a globe? that would just look weird....

[Jonny]

Originally posted by Chuckles
i.e.-you go up at the top of the map and you show up half a screen over on the top of the map.

I think this is an excellent idea as well as a realistic one. For example, this could allow you to have a Cold War scenario where the Americans and Soviets could bomb each other cities without flying half way around the world. (not counting alaska and siberia )

[KrazyHorse]

Completely silly to have this. It would be faster to get from Norway to Alaska than to get from Norway to Germany. Once you've decided on a map like the one Civ 2 uses, you can't make a compromise. You just get the worst of both worlds.

[DarkCloud]

To remedy this debate:

There should be several options:

Choose a Map
-
Load a Saved Map
Generate a Random Map---(taken to seperate 'slider' screen)

Choose a Map Type
-
Flat Map (Theatrewide)
Fully 3D Map
Globe Map
Wrap-around Map

[Nemo]

this one still burns me...i dont understand why it is so difficult to impliment a sphere on a flat map!
i understand why we can/should not have a sphere world like X-com ...but donut world blows chunks! - it just makes no logical
sense. is there a black hole at the poles or something???

it is a simple mathmatical equation to simulate a sphere world on a flat map by doing something like this:

//start
width/2=z;
xCoord + z = whereThePieceMovesNext;
//end

walla! all done.

now imagine applying it in the grid i drew. if your piece is at 2n and goes up...that means it comes out at 12n. if it was a flat map or east-west only map, then this could not happen. if this was a donut map then the peice would emerge at 2s.
with this equation/example it allows for the player to imagine a map that was like any map we read on a daily basis for traveling or whatever. there is only one draw back i found...and that is that the world's grid width can only be even numbered. this can be overcome by compensating code...or easier yet, by simply allowing only even number widths (does it really make a difference if your custom map is 121 width instead of 120 or 122 width?)

it can be so simply implemented...took me less than 10 seconds (except making the grid took a little bit...using different graphic program than normal)

so simple
so logical
so realistic
so why can't it be done?

[Ralf]

Originally posted by Pilfur
Would anybody else agree with me that the east-west map wrap around should be optional?

In Civ2 one could choose "Customize rules" and then "Flat world" in the game-setup. So you can be pretty sure that they gonna add something like this in Civ-3, as well. Dont worry.

[007]

it is too bad that CIV III is too far in the game to steal the globe idea from "manifest destiny".
now my only hope is that cyberware will get enough $ to make their graphix to the level of civ III and enough $ to market the game, besides i think that "manifest destiny" is a ****y name.

[Nemo]

It doesn't have to be half a screen over. In reality all the Northern\Southern most tiles should be touching. So you should be able to travel instantly to any of them.

true...but there is a dead zone (the black area) at the extreme ends of the maps...this could be considered the true tip, where as the last moveable gid is just before the complete north/south pole.

(and...yes, i am having fun with my new imaging program )

[Dauphin]

Nemo,

That isn't really a sphere. It does nothing to reflect geodisic routes - the shortest route to a location on a true sphere, that makes it appear curved on a flat map.

If you travel East or West at the Equator you will have to travel further in order to return to the same point, than if you did the same thing nearer the poles.

Your model (although a lot easier to code) does not reflect this.

[Nemo]

BigCrunch: ahhh, i see what you are getting at. well, the only way i can think to do that on a flat map is to make the tiles becom larger as you approach the poles. this would allow the map to maintain its square/rectangle shape, while allowing for less movements towards the poles.

i was thinking more along the lines of simply getting around the 'wall' at each end of the poles, while maintaining a realistic, yet easily implimented means of doing it (reads: "firaxis, please do something, anything, about the north/south pole issue. and no, donut world is not realistic...even if this is only a game")

[Mercator]

Although the "halfway jump" at the poles is rather flawed, it´s a start. Now I think of it, does anyone here have Civ2:ToT and Angelo Scotto´s CSPL (an events language of some sorts)? Maybe that can do this.
Depicting a true globe won´t be possible in a fixed size square as far as I know, so the discrete system the civ series has used so far can´t support it, I believe. I´m not familiar with X-COM, so how did they do it there?
All the rectangular map projections have some kind of deficit, either distance, surface area or shape will be violated in some way.
I did see another approach at dealing with this problem, in a game called Evolution, that looked something like this

0.....0.....0.....0

00...000...000...00

000.00000.00000.000

0000000000000000000

0000000000000000000

0000000000000000000

000.00000.00000.000

00...000...000...00

0.....0.....0.....0

The dotted areas are black, if you enter on one side of the you reappear at the adjacent triangle. This is still far from perfect, of course, and probably can´t be implemented in Civ3 either... oh well.

[Nemo]

the X-com map was a complete 3D-sphere with rotational abilities and you could even see the night/day line created by the sun. not too bad, considering how old the game was.

[Mercator]

But was the map discrete (say like Civ2) or not (e.g AoE)? I think it´s not all that hard to create a basic globe, it´s harder to adjust the graphics so that they adjust to the perspective, so that the terrains, units, cities etc. appear on the map correctly. If you would want this system to look perfect, creating your own graphics would be an even more impossible job.

[RonHiler]

Originally posted by 007
it is too bad that CIV III is too far in the game to steal the globe idea from "manifest destiny".
now my only hope is that cyberware will get enough $ to make their graphix to the level of civ III and enough $ to market the game

I was worried that Civ III would steal our globe for a while myself. While I think they would have created a better game had they done so, I like the idea of us being the only Civ-style game with a real globe As it is, we are quite different games, although in the same genre. They have wonders, we don't. We have a globe, they don't. We have Leaders, they have Generals. We have a unit workshop, they do not. I could go on and on. Firaxis and RJCyberware have gone in different directions for each of our games, which suits me just fine, heh. The bottom line is that I think there is room in the genre for both of us. I hope so anyway, because we will be the ones forced out if there isn't

, besides i think that "manifest destiny" is a ****y name.

I'm sorry you don't like the name