2001 Players Tourney

[cavebear]

It seems to me that it is time for another tourney to settle some discussions of "Who Is Best".

Toward that end, I propose to organize a 2nd Tourney similar to the one last year. And I have a much better idea of who should be in it and how it should be constructed.

For a start, I will propose a group of likely top players and then let the group decide on additions (since I certainly don't know every best player).

Second, the tourney will alternate between MP and duel games.

Third, the points will be structured to spread scores out a bit more than last time, yet allow some catching up.

Fourth, if someone withdraws this time, I'm not going to suffer over it. You leave, that's your loss.

Fifth, as before, the colors of the trophy will be up to the winner.

[Zylka]

Sounds great

Some likely suggestions:

Kaak (If he's still alive )
Strategicking
Sean
Deity
Ming
Robbie Tiger
Weird God
Species

Based entirely on having played these people, after all hearsay is a pretty stupid way to cast a vote.

[cavebear]

Here is my initial list of otential players. Granted, it is a list based on ratings. hearsay, experience, and reputation, but it is (I think), a good start.

Other persons are welcome to be nominated to fill any gaps I have missed:

(alphabetically)

ALEXANDERS HORSE
ARII
CARNIDE
DARFLEX
DARKSTORM
DEITY
EYES
JASONNJSHORE
JB
JES
JORSBURGH
KAAK
KOLUMBUS
KUJA
MARK E
MARKUS
MING
NAP
SLOWWHAND
SMARTFART
SPARTAN
SPECIES
STRATEGICKING
SUAS333
THE BURG
UPINFLAMES
WAR4EVER
WEIRD GOD
ZYLKA

Let me know who should be on this list that I have missed.

[cavebear]

Robbie Tiger...

[cavebear]

And, of course, anyone of the list has to let me know that they desire to participate...

I assure everyone that it matters nothing to me who wins, just that the tourney was fair and as honest as I can make it .

[SmartFart]

Where are RAH,Berzerker,Bird,DaveV,Carlous Rex,Barono,Makeo......?

I am glad you have a nerve to organize another tournament,since i had a wonderful time in last one.
However...if rules are like in the last one (deity,x1x1 or x2x1) i'll be happy to participate. Vast majority on Apolyton playing under mentioned rules anyway.

I liked your maps. Doy you have some already prepared?
Keep up the good work.

SF

[drake]

Just out of curiosity, how was this organized last year? Was it single elimination/double etc. How long did it take? How hard was it to do the scheduling?

[cavebear]

Originally posted by drake
Just out of curiosity, how was this organized last year? Was it single elimination/double etc. How long did it take? How hard was it to do the scheduling?

There were no eliminations; all participants were welcome to continue to compete to the end. There were 4 rounds (2 duels first and 2 MP games last). The entire tourney lasted about 5 months.

All participants were nominated by their fellow players.

The scheduling was sometimes very difficult. My goal was to keep similar-score players competing against each other (like in a Swiss System chess tourney), but available times for the MP games forced some adjustments. You can imagine what it was like trying to get Aussies, Europeans, and North American players together at the same time AND by similar scores!

I made all (or most, I forget) of the maps.

Nevertheless, I enjoyed it, and will happily do it again.

There will be some changes this time, as I learned a lot from last year's tourney. I think it will be best to start with MP games, for one thing (perhaps something like MP, duel, MP, duel). The scoring will be adjusted, too. I gave too much to the duels last year, and it became apparent that some players had no chance to catch up, which had a naturally discouraging effect. The MP games will probably be scored 7-5-3-1 and the duels 3-0 this time.

[cavebear]

Originally posted by SmartFart
Where are RAH,Berzerker,Bird,DaveV,Carlous Rex,Barono,Makeo......?

I am glad you have a nerve to organize another tournament,since i had a wonderful time in last one.
However...if rules are like in the last one (deity,x1x1 or x2x1) i'll be happy to participate. Vast majority on Apolyton playing under mentioned rules anyway.

I liked your maps. Doy you have some already prepared?
Keep up the good work.

SF

I've added your suggestions to my list, shame on me for leaving them off.

Barring some major mutiny among the participants, I expect the MP games will be deity level and 1x1x. Some leeway would be allowed for duels, though.

I have numerous maps filed away, and will make more. If there a lot of participants, there will be some used in more than one game (especially in duels).

[SlowwHand]

Berz should be in the thing.
Boann gets any world explored as fast as anyone I know.
I'll play if called, and wait until next if not.

[Eyes_Of_Night]

I think I'd rather spend those 30+ hours playing AOK or something else.

[SuperSneak]

Thanks for sharing, Eyes.


If you ever have an Amateurs League, let me know.

You might consider having people rank themselves, maybe breaking it into Deity League/Intermediate League/Amateur League.

Then you could have a three way face off for a "fun" title as well.
Of course, making quantitative decisions about people's abilities could be tough when ranging from middle to high ability levels.

But some of us know that we stink!

Good luck...I really enjoyed following along with this last year.

Cavebear was the one who first played an MP game with me...he is a major class act.

You all can thank him for the fact that I even hang around....
Sorry, CB. All hate mail is now my fault!

[Alexander's Horse]

Sorry Cavebear I'd like to play but can't make a commitment to hours that would suit European and American players, so alas I'll have to decline your invitation.

[SlowwHand]

Originally posted by SuperSneak
Good luck...I really enjoyed following along with this last year.

Cavebear was the one who first played an MP game with me...he is a major class act.

You all can thank him for the fact that I even hang around....
Sorry, CB. All hate mail is now my fault!

Cavebear is good people, isn't he ?

[markusf]

I remember my first game, it had cavebear , wonderdog superstar. I subbed in for the mongols in did pretty good. My second game with wonderdog shocked him because i built monster cities really fast. To bad none of the old greats are here to play in the tourny.

The best players right now are

Nappy,
arii,
mark e,
me

Some that fall just short
SF -- Can't defend worth a damn
Crustation -- weak early game, amazing end game
Carnide -- Old dog having trouble learning new tricks

Then there is a level just below that which contains a lot of players. They have one or 2 flaws in thier game that does them, be it expanding or using trade or defence etc.

diety,
war4ever,
bezerker
etc

[SlowwHand]

What happened to Wonderdog? Disappeared?

[Alexander's Horse]

[SIZE=1]

The best players right now are

Nappy,
arii,
mark e,
me

How modest.

[markusf]

Look if it isn't UBER chicken horse

I came second in the tourny last year, so i have more then enough credability. Also i have played nearly everyone so i know thier weaknesses and strengths. Top tier players can make the best out of any situation no matter how bad...

[Alexander's Horse]

Don't you think so?

[Berzerker]

May I suggest we (Cavebear ) have a tournament open to everyone? Perhaps MarkG can announce the tourney in one of those sticky threads to be placed in every forum so Apolytoners will see it. People can be given 2 weeks to confirm their desire to participate.

Btw, I see Markus has discovered Mark E

[Species8472]

We have all seen a lot of attempts for making tournaments, its very hard. So lets look back on it and see what went wrong.

1. communication
2. no show ups
3. scheduling
4. continues

Players are chosen based upon skill. This is for itself an admirable start point to shorten the number of games that have to be played. However: i think for every tournament, everybody has to sign up. If you do not signup and consider the player in the tournament because he is good, the chance is big he will never show. Better have a tournament with newbies where games are played, then an inactive tournament with the best players.

If you really want to seperate the better from the worse, you can make pouls with stronger and weaker in the same poul after the signup. that way the good players end up in the finals.

MP games: if you want MP games in the tournament, make them PG games. continues will never happen. So let us say a 4 hour powergraph decission.

Duels: 1x1x games, preferably Deity. This will eliminate most of the luck. If you want 2x2x games, do a best of 3, and customize 5 billion years, so the land is harder accessable.


Organizing:

1. A sign up system. everyone should sign up before a certain date.

2. Set a date on which all first round games are played and have 1 or 2 tournament leaders around. Preferably in a chat room, where everyone should report their games. I always found the way that gameleague organized tournaments perfect. In a chat room, there was decided who plays against whom. After the time is up, next round is done.

This system has its merrits and its wrongs. The merrits are: games are played and the results are derived and processed fast. the disadvantage is, that not everyone can play on this day, so maybe the quality of the competition goes down a little.


Extracting to the points that can go wrong:

1. a bad communication: can be avoided by a sign up system and a homepage where the first rounds are posted. with the signup, ICQ is a MUST. The date of the first round is posted on this website, and all players need to go to 1 chat room at the start. In this chat room, 1 or 2 tournament leaders are avaiable.

2. no shop ups: can be partly avoided with a signup system. also after signup, members can be send a reminder via ICQ or email. If they do not show up then, they are disqualified, no rescheduling, to prevent the tournament from crashing.

3. Scheduling: Scheduling should not be done by the players themselfs, that hardly ever works. Make rounds and set a date/ time and place for these rounds.

4. Continues: they should not take place. continue dates will destroy your tournament. If a game does not end within a certain time, powergraph it.



Conclusion:

Ofcourse we want a tournament with only the best, and games that can be played on the time that suits you best, and play untill someone surrenders. However, in a tournament where the games of maybe 20 players must be coordinated, this is practically impossible. To secure the tournament outcome, games must be set on a strict time and place, where communication lines are small (chat) rather then long (email or schedules). Also the games should have a time limit to avoid saving/ continues.

A combination of powergraph/ time limit games in rounds that can be on different days would be the most flexible system as it can get and still save for getting an outcome. All dates of the rounds should be posted from the start of the tournament though

[Rasputin]

Only 4 hours of play for a MP game,,, No way, if thats the standard set then you may as well paly SP. Civ 2 MP needs time to develop, The Powergraph is not a true indication of how game will end up , especially not after 4 hours, you will simply encourage Quick Pop growth which is a big part of thePG.. No need to develop a civ becuase that only comes into effect later i ngame

[SlowwHand]

I'm not into power graph games.

[SmartFart]

If you guys continue to discuss about 'what if...' and 'yes,but...' we shall never even start.
In my expirience,most MP games end in 2nd or 3rd session and that's not too hard to schedule.

I suggest that everyone interested just do a signup and wait for Cavebear to do the rest

I will gladly participate.

SF

[Deity Dude]

I'd like to see a tournament open to everybody as opposed to 10 or 15 people nominating each other. I think there should be a small entry fee - maybe $10 - this would seperate the serious players from the rest and also add a little motiviation to show up and continue when you are suppoesed to. You miss a time you forfiet your fee. In addition, the winner would get a few bucks and he/she could truly call themselves a professional civer.

PS I don't think powergraph games are indicative of who would eventually win - but they are a good indicator of who wins the race to the Pyramids.

[Species8472]

These were just suggestions, nothing more, nothing less. if you do it any other way, the tournament will not end or take 5 months again, its your choice.

For your information Slowwhand, i have no idea what the preferences are fo the players, i really dont care. i do not play in this ladder, i merely support it.

And why not let gameleague organize such a tournament? Gameleague is the ladder supported by apolyton. they have lots of experience with this, and im sure they could use the attention.


by the way slowwhand, what is your problem? why do you have to put everything i say into a negative sense? are you paranoid or just autistic?

[SlowwHand]

If a tree falls at League, and only the League Officials are there, does the tree falling still make a sound?

I'm a paranoid autistic. Thanks for noticing.

[cavebear]

Originally posted by Species8472
We have all seen a lot of attempts for making tournaments, its very hard. So lets look back on it and see what went wrong.

1. communication
2. no show ups
3. scheduling
4. continues

Thank you for the detailed thoughts on the tourney. I do appreciate it, and I read each of them with care.

Players are chosen based upon skill. This is for itself an admirable start point to shorten the number of games that have to be played. However: i think for every tournament, everybody has to sign up. If you do not signup and consider the player in the tournament because he is good, the chance is big he will never show. Better have a tournament with newbies where games are played, then an inactive tournament with the best players.

I should have been more thorough on the tourney name, but I thought most everyone remembered the one from last year. While League tourneys are designed to be completed in a weekend or so, mine is designed more to really get players a chance to match their skills against each other as in regular games. It is my experience that the top players won't generally play in an "open" tourney. The participants are individually confirmed before the list is finalized.

If you really want to seperate the better from the worse, you can make pouls with stronger and weaker in the same poul after the signup. that way the good players end up in the finals.

Actually, this is the "Nominated Players Tourney, 2001". The whole point is to start with the best players, as identified by other players. Apolyton runs some tourneys for everyone.

MP games: if you want MP games in the tournament, make them PG games. continues will never happen. So let us say a 4 hour powergraph decission.

Duels: 1x1x games, preferably Deity. This will eliminate most of the luck. If you want 2x2x games, do a best of 3, and customize 5 billion years, so the land is harder accessable.

MP games do continue, with some occasional help by the tourney director (me). PG games are faster, but not the best way to determine real winners. Some players are just simply deadly in the end game and it is the final outcome that counts.

Organizing:

1. A sign up system. everyone should sign up before a certain date.

No rush. Settling the list may take a couple of weeks, but I have time. And some of the top players do not read the threads all that often. It takes a while for word to spread.

2. Set a date on which all first round games are played and have 1 or 2 tournament leaders around. Preferably in a chat room, where everyone should report their games. I always found the way that gameleague organized tournaments perfect. In a chat room, there was decided who plays against whom. After the time is up, next round is done.

One secret of the success of last year's tourney was to be flexible about schedules. As far as pairings, I will handle that. As a tourney director, I am an enlightened tyrant, not a secretary. It works well that way.

This system has its merrits and its wrongs. The merrits are: games are played and the results are derived and processed fast. the disadvantage is, that not everyone can play on this day, so maybe the quality of the competition goes down a little.

The quality of competition is the entire point of this exercise, so I will stay flexible on the game dates/times.

Extracting to the points that can go wrong:

1. a bad communication: can be avoided by a sign up system and a homepage where the first rounds are posted. with the signup, ICQ is a MUST. The date of the first round is posted on this website, and all players need to go to 1 chat room at the start. In this chat room, 1 or 2 tournament leaders are avaiable.

With individual participant confirmation, signup is not needed. Limiting participation to a set starting time and day limits the participation.

2. no shop ups: can be partly avoided with a signup system. also after signup, members can be send a reminder via ICQ or email. If they do not show up then, they are disqualified, no rescheduling, to prevent the tournament from crashing.

I go to great lengths to accomodate participation and schedules. Its my time, so no loss to anyone for it.

3. Scheduling: Scheduling should not be done by the players themselfs, that hardly ever works. Make rounds and set a date/ time and place for these rounds.

When there are difficulties scheduling a game, I make whatever adjustments required. It worked last year.

4. Continues: they should not take place. continue dates will destroy your tournament. If a game does not end within a certain time, powergraph it.

Without continuations, it is like a speed chess tourney. Interesting, certainly, but not the purpose of this one.

[deity]

I agree that the Tourney needs a positive energy buzz to get going.

Cavebear has the track record for organising this stuff so count me in.

Some of species ideas are good as a fall back position.

I think only use the pg AFTER a certain time period or number of sessions has lapsed - written into the rules up front.
Let's let anyone nominate, see who's keen and then break it up into two groups if necessary. So, to this end I think it's been a worthwhile exercise for everyone to grade each other to get a sense of our relative strengths.

Species, if interested, might be a good 2IC for Cavebear to help organise and communicate games info.

EASTHAVEN, drake and Zylka are good new players who I hope nominate for the Tourney and should certainly be in the top group.

I'd also love to see Slowwhand, Deity Dude and others in the Tourney too. Some of them are bound to be surprise packets!

I like cavebears new points system.

GMT 10pm Sat night might be a good time to get North Americans/Europeans and Aussies in the same game session.
IE, USA Sat afternoon/evening;
European Sat evening;
Aussie Sunday morning.

My preferrred settings (much the same as last Tourney):
* 1x1x Deity - no huts or barbs??
* Equal map starts
* turn based but maybe simul till 1AD - turn based wars
* No alliances
* No tech trading
* No city bribe

It would be great to have maps though that no one has seen before nor revealed to anyone but I guess this is asking a bit much!

[cavebear]

Originally posted by Deity Dude
I'd like to see a tournament open to everybody as opposed to 10 or 15 people nominating each other. I think there should be a small entry fee - maybe $10 - this would seperate the serious players from the rest and also add a little motiviation to show up and continue when you are suppoesed to. You miss a time you forfiet your fee. In addition, the winner would get a few bucks and he/she could truly call themselves a professional civer.

There will be no entry fees. However, there will be a handsome (and unique) home-made trophy for the winner.