Two Faces of Lal? (and AI diplomancy)

Marid Audran · June 7, 2001, 17:31

(Lengthy extrapolation ahead, beware)

It's seems that nearly everyone has a horror story or other regarding the two-faced Lal, either in a behind-the-back pact betrayal or otherwise just acting stubborn when asked to unite behind the player for the good of humanity. It's never happened with me though; I've actually found Lal to be the most reliable Ally I can find in a game, and the least likely to go trolling for a fight with me if I lead in power charts. Typically the first time I meet him in a game Lal tells me about some SOB on the other side of Planet I've not met yet, whom he's tried "reasoning" with and whom won't see the light, and offers a pact (it's often the Pirates for some reason, Lal just seems to have a personal beef against Sven like no other...maybe he caught him shaving with his surgeon's scalpel back on the Unity or something). My democratic leanings keep things pleasant.

Deidre: Not as cooperative as usually assumed, at least in my experience. Zak: Stingy with tech trading. Morgan is usually receptive, but he's usually so weak he's seeking to be a toady to a higher power anyway. Santago is usually in too surly a mood to consider anything less than throwing a rover or two, or ten, my way.

Actually, the thing I like the best about SMAC over Civ II is the diplomancy model and the increased integrity of agreements with the AI. In Civ II, sure, the AI will remain friendly, as long as you're ever-so-much-but-not-quite-too-much-as-to-breed-contempt weaker than they. The "playing preferences" of rational vs. aggressive, militaristic vs. civilized, and perfectionistic vs. expansionistic I found by and large meaningless. The nations registered in my mind as one big amorphous blob of multi-colored vicious little cur-barking jealously.

In Civ II the only good thing about an Alliance was being one more step away from being "sneak attacked," because rest assure the AI *will* do so, often within one turn of signing a peace treaty, and not give it a second thought. Around the Renissance and Industrial eras the AI also convienently forgets all notions of "borders" with player territory and will prance its Cavalry and Riflemen and Engineers all over the place. I despised nukes in Civ II, and more so the AI's cavalier attitude with them, as if they were just another innocuous weapon to be used and *dropped* at will, without warning. Planet Busters are atrocities are handled much better in SMAC.

In SMAC I find it loads easier to keep pactmates. As long as you treat them reasonably well, they typically stick by you until the end. That includes giving them loan payments, being open with tech trading, gifting them captured bases, transferring units to their control, etc. In my most recent game as the Cult, I started out on a medium-sized island with the Unity crashed in the middle, a bad start in other words. I pacted with Lal early on against Sven and Lal was ahead for a good part of the game. Miriam soon joined him in the power charts as she crusaded against Dee and Morgan. Zak was killed very early on by worms. By mid-game things had polarized into two power blocs of Lal and I vs. Miriam and Sven. Power was scrupulously balanced for the longest time, and Miriam even tried voting herself Supreme Leader at one point (she'd captured Dee's Empath Guild). I think Lal's double votes saved the day in nay.

Eventually my builder preperations in middle-game had me ascending the power graph, as it's wont to do, though Lal remained as faithful as ever in our vendetta against the Believer menace. When I finally got Sven, Dee, and Morgan in submissive pacts, after a bunch of changing allegiances, only Miriam remained. Then, in like the space of five turns, every faction on Chiron *pacted with each OTHER against Miriam*, with I leading the pack in our united holy fungal jihad against her. Usually nations continue to squabble regardless of allegiance to the player, but not here. It was bliss to carry out in the name of a united humanity...even if Cha Dawn's agenda couldn't be much better from an ideological standpoint.

Who has been your most trustworthy ally?

Method · June 7, 2001, 17:50

trustworthy ally? no no no! my allies just use me as a bag of tech to be sucked out of or they will cancel pacts and use my bases to launch aerial attacks from. and naturally if i cancel, they will go to war and they're the next most powerfull faction, and i'm happy just sitting here building. and i'm not really ready for war anyway. pacts are more of "treaties of convenience" and double commerce for me rather than a real friendship

Lefty Scaevola · June 7, 2001, 19:17

Study the PK emblem, its in the list of avatars, the planet with thoses white splotches on it. Does this not look like a planet being creamed by planet busters?.

Earwicker · June 8, 2001, 09:27

Quote:

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Study the PK emblem, its in the list of avatars, the planet with thoses white splotches on it. Does this not look like a planet being creamed by planet busters?.

I'm with you on this one, Lefty. Lal, the Colt Peacekeeper, picks a fight with everyone and tries to drag your faction into the fray. Eventually you'll be on that list of enemies, too.

Much like the nuke-happy Indians in Civ2, I always work to keep him from getting strong. The good thing about him is that his SE choices are close to what I run (demo, knowledge), making him more likely to surrender than say Miriam or Sven.

knowhow2 · June 8, 2001, 09:31

allies? most trustworthy? those that have surrended to you. not even then can you trust them all the way, someday, somewhere you might get a knife in your back.

Verrucosus · June 8, 2001, 10:56

The most memorable experience with a pact brother was one with CEO Morgan.

I was playing as Lal. My Peacekeepers shared the central continent on the Huge Map of Planet with the Morganites. We had concluded a Treaty of Friendship at an early stage, but in the 2230s, after having scolded me for decades for my Planned Economy, he finally declared Vendetta. I had been a bit sloppy regarding my probe defenses, so he successfully mindprobed the UN base containing the Weather Paradigm that had been defended by a single Probe Team. Well, I had some energy left as well, so I just brought in my Probe Teams the next turn and bought the base back. Immediately, the phone rings and CEO Morgan is on the line. His "This Vendetta is a waste of resources" line never fit better. He suggested a truce and I accepted. I proposed to reestablish the Treaty of Friendship and he accepted my proposal. Two turns later he calls again, this time proposing a pact. For the rest of the game we were the best of friends, and when he ranted about Free Market Economics now and then, it was little more than friendly banter among buddies. Shortly before getting myself elected Supreme Leader, I even had the pleasure to watch a yellow Drop Squad occupying a Believing base that I had bombed the turn before - something I have never seen before and after that game.

Since Morgan actually broke the first Treaty, this was not entirely a story of trustworthiness. What I like about it is how much it fits Morgan's character. I could almost see him thinking how stupid he was to waste 3000 of his cherished credits on a base only to have it subverted back. Also, it was perfectly in character for someone like Morgan to see his commerce income go up again (after the Treaty was reestablished) and say "Hey, why not have a pact?"

Since I play him too often myself, I better avoid the issue of the two-faced Lal. "You might very well say that, but I could not possibly comment."

Verrucosus

Earwicker · June 8, 2001, 13:19

Quote:

Originally posted by knowhow2
allies? most trustworthy? those that have surrended to you. not even then can you trust them all the way, someday, somewhere you might get a knife in your back.

That's why I won't share too many techs even with pet factions. Sooner or later they might start getting uppity about our relationship and get me with my back turned. If that happens, I'd rather not face those 1-5-1*2 AAA defenders I helped them build.

Method · June 9, 2001, 10:22

i didn't know that pet factions could renounce the pact. what happened to "I surrender oh mighty (insert leader name here). but if you let me live in peace i shall give all my energy and share with you all of my technological data and shall never trouble you again."(exact wording not known)

note the "shall never trouble you again" part.

Ned · June 9, 2001, 11:37

The game is about power blocks. It normally devolves into two. You can keep a pact brother, so long as you and the pact brother are not 1 - 2 on the power meter. This portends a re-alignment.

This said, your own pact brothers will desert to the opposing camp if you do not treat them well. In most games where I am at the "pathetic" level, a pact brother will gift me techs whenever I ask. Do the same to your own inferior pact mates, and they will stay with you.

Always monitor the colors on the diplomacy x-ray. If your pact brother is in the red, he is about to bolt. You need to do something, but it may be too late.

If the color is yellow, you need to do something right away to fix the pact brother's mood. Give him or her some tech.

Next turn, normally, the pact brother's mood will change to blue.

The Mad Monk · June 9, 2001, 13:12

THAT'S what that thing is for???

I thought it was just an 'art' graphic...

johndmuller · June 9, 2001, 14:56

While I don't know that I've spent much if any time Pacted with Yang, I seem to be able to live next door to him for whole games without any serious border trouble. Not that we go without the occasional skirmish and not that I don't have to have a unit or two near the border, but it seems that he is willing to leave me alone for the most part, even if we share the continent. The most annoying thing is actually the constant parade of his units going by between turns.

Of course, when you have to fight him, he seems to have an endless stream of units marching in from somewhere and it can take forever to turn the corner.

Morgan is rarely a serious factor, but he is much the same; I don't think I've ever been attacked by Morgan if I didn't start it first. Morgan is not so dependable if you actually get into a pact; he's just like the rest - just another fair weather enemy.

A different spin on this would be which of the AI usually gets to be the strongest in your games? For me, it is often Dierdra and almost never Lal or Morgan and rarely Santiago, but when she is strong, she is really strong!

Clear Skies · June 9, 2001, 17:00

Most faithful Pactmate? Anyone except Dee - she can never keep her nasty probe-enhanced fingers out of my tech store...
Roze is a pretty loyal Pactmate, specially if you're running Demo. Morgan seemingly hates every SE choice I make, so he's not a good bet...
Svensgaard's alrite, but it has to be Roze for me.

Marid Audran · June 10, 2001, 03:17

Entertaining story there Verrucosus, particularly since Morgan seems to hate Planned without peer. Forget Dee, I suspect Yang is Morgan's true antithesis.

Ned is right about bioscans, and though they only come in three colors can speak volumes about an AI's true intent. Lal for example I found often keeps up friendly diplomatic tones (Solicitous and Magnanimous) in less-than-friendly bioscans, which speaks about his own role as the "peacekeeper" I suppose.

I've never seen a submitted pact member renounce a pact; I'd have to abuse or betray them somehow. I've never even got an ethically suspect probe action from a submitted pactmate. Since I've been using Ver 2.0 SMAX I've no longer had to fudge my SE settings in-turn to get a stubborn faction to submit to my will; these days when their back is against the wall, they'll submit, aversions or no. Definitely a good thing; I'm heartily sick of Morgan down to his last two bases telling me he's eliminating my faction as part of "legitimate business sense."

Probably the fuzziest feeling I get from a trustworthy pactmate is the instance of unit transfer. Once in a game I had a frontier base getting battered by Miriam air power and it was in serious jeoparday. In the subjequent AI turns I had both Morgan *and* Lal transfer a Needlejet to that base during their patrols! 'Twas just when I needed it.

I typically regard the point when I get that dismal "For now, my secrets shall remain my own" message the point when the Pact honeymoon is over. However, I've carried on reasonable relations with pactmates who are #2 to my #1, and visa versa.

As far as tales of strange bedfellows go, my current game as the Consciousness definitely counts. I pacted early with Cha Dawn against the Caretakers for convienence. I was using the CC's bonuses more as an excuse to abuse my SE settings to a breaking point; early game I was running Police State/Planned and "only" suffering from "Appalling Ineffiency" (!) Great settings for carving out an early game piece of the pie though. Tech and cash? That's what probes are for; extracting donations from others.

Anyhow, Yang eventually comes ringing with his backdoor offer of a counter-pact against the Cult, citing "evidence" of an eventual betrayal. Considering Dawn's mood as seething, I figured he might have a point after all. I suppose it all came down to which tyrant's vision I respected more: Your garden-variety athiestic Big Brother or a Children of the Corn figurehead in Princess Amadala drag? So I took up on Yang's offer.

And boy, are we ever bozum buddies; sharing techs, sharing units, sharing gin over drones getting nerve-stapled as we wax giddy over the ideal socially conditioned cybernetic ubermensch. Such a different "Yang" experience I'm sorry to see it end. Not anytime soon I hope; right now I'm running Police State/Green/Knowledge. A real comfort zone, I may add.

Lord MJ · June 11, 2001, 06:48

My least trustworthy Ally was a custom faction I made, a former faction, Aminah Corp. They sneak attacked me while our pact of Brotherhood was still in effect!

They got it though, when I used my superior military tactics, to encircle thier invasion force, that they sent charging blindly in to my defenses. I landed troops behind thier invasion force, and they were surrounded. I became the most powerful faction on Planet as a result of that.

Verrucosus · June 11, 2001, 08:58

This bioscan info is amazing. I never noticed it before.

On a slightly technical note, I too have been annoyed by the endless parade of units that johndmuller complains about. It almost prompted me to set the "Move neutral units fast" preference, but I was worried to miss something important. Only recently I learned that you can press "shift" or "alt" (I do not know which at the moment, but the exact key is given on the manual's last page) to speed up the AI movement temporarily. I am not sure whether it helps a lot, but at least it gives me something to do while I have to watch Yang's Impact Infantry moving around in circles.

Chowlett · June 11, 2001, 12:10

Quote:

Originally posted by Lord MJ
My least trustworthy Ally was a custom faction I made, a former faction, Aminah Corp. They sneak attacked me while our pact of Brotherhood was still in effect!

Is this another example of the AI cheating? AFAIK, humans can't attack while in Pact, with the exception of probes and possibly artillery. We'd have to cancel to Treaty first, which would remove all units from the territory

Earwicker · June 11, 2001, 17:15

Quote:

Originally posted by TKG
i didn't know that pet factions could renounce the pact. what happened to "I surrender oh mighty (insert leader name here). but if you let me live in peace i shall give all my energy and share with you all of my technological data and shall never trouble you again."(exact wording not known)

note the "shall never trouble you again" part.

If somebody probes your submissive and successfully frames you, there is a good chance they will cancel pact then attack you. Big PIA. Having seen this one too many times, I keep submissives around only as commerce partners and nothing more.

I've also noticed in some SMAX games that it can be darned hard to get opposing factions to submit - despite friendly SE choices and being on their last empty base, they'll stil hurl insults in my face. MAybe they all just reallllllly hate Morgan. To the Sphere, then (he says with a slightly heavy heart).

Ned · June 11, 2001, 17:54

Earwicker, Ah ha! So that's it! Probing! But, even with probing, I am willing to bet that the submissive still will not revolt if his mood meter is in the blue. Both times a submissive has revolted on me, the meter was yellow or red.

I have also had yellow or red submissives revolt after a diplomatic victory.

So, the best course of action, even with submissives, is to keep them in the blue.

As to the other factor, getting them to submit, I don't have a reliable theory. However I have observed the following: factions with powerful pact brother will normally not submit easily, if at all. But as soon as one of the allies submits, the others may as well, whether or not you have troops near their cities.

Darkstar · June 12, 2001, 17:53

My experience has been that the AI is just biding it's time until it can stab you in the back, no matter how BLUE and how MAGNANIMOUS their mood. I've have pact brothers and sisters, with nice blue bio scans and in GREAT moods, switch alliegences and combine against me, despite treating them wonderfully.

I love a surrendered faction. It is rare for them to turn on you, but they will. So beware to those that think they can't or won't. The fastest way to get them to turn on you? Make them #2, with you at #1. I've been framed hundreds of times by our enemies, and that will less likely have your submissives turn on you then building them up yourself, giving them the GOOD tech and units.

knowhow2 · June 12, 2001, 19:18

A funny thing this probing.... if you probe your submissive (pet) nothing happens, if someone else frames you, THEN they renounce pact... stupid system!

I just finished a game resently and during that game the following happened: playing morgan I had santiago as my pet and miriam as my pactmate... then as both where above me on the might chart - miriam probe santiago and framed me! and suddenly my pet renounce the pact and declared vendetta against me and miriam step forwards to help me against her!!!

talk about playing two sides.....