Napoleon, Alexandre and their friends

[Marquis de Sodaq]

Well, my Alexander attempt came up well short of those posted here. I took too long getting to the east. I'll try it again later. I tend to avoid bribing cities (odd, considering my signature quote), but that has become an important element in these races against the clock. Maybe I'll be able to part with all the gold next time.

I never did get the chance to play X-com. I've had less time to play civ lately, so the opportunities have been few.

Fubla, Alexander and the others suggested come with the Conflicts in Civilization set, FW, and MGE. If you have another version without them, one of us could post a game as a save.

If we stay with the standard set of scenarios, I remember enjoying Jihad. As the Arabs, you roll out the fanatics and punish the Byzantines for being in the way. I tried playing once as the Visigoths, but don't remember doing so well. Maybe now with more experience...

[La Fayette]

About X-Com, Marquis was too busy, he said.
The others were too shy to post their poor results, or perhaps not interested at all in fighting the aliens.
That is why I decided not to have a second try at X-Com, without having discussed anything with anyone.
I chose to play what Marquis de Sodaq had just suggested, namely Jihad (as the Arabs).

Complete victory (44 objectives conquered, 6 destroyed, not by me): 99 years.
This can easily be beaten by someone who takes care about ONE important point that I noticed only very late in the game:
many objectives are hidden in the black unknown area and appear when you explore and reveal that part of the map.
When the scenario begins, in 632, the Byzantines own 15 objectives and the Arabs own 2. The introductory text states that the Byzantines are going to try and conquer all objectives, and that they should be stopped.
That's what I did and 50 years later, in 682, the Arabs owned 10 objectives and the Byzantines owned 12, which is precisely the limit for 'Byzantine decisive defeat'.
Up to that point, the game was fun, building the Arab civ and beating the Byzantines. In fact, that was a decisive Arab victory, and I might have stopped there.
But I decided to go on and conquer the other objectives I could see. After a while, I found that both frustrating and boring: 49 years after 'decisive victory', used to search for new faraway small objective cities and bribe them one after the other.
Typical example of what I call a 'boring endgame'.
(If some of us are going to play that one again, I would very much appreciate that we agree not to be compelled to conquer all 50 objectives).


(this guy is La Fayette having a look at objective #43)

[La Fayette]

After having had a try at playing scenarios, then discussing strategy, then playing again, it appears that:
1) Few people are ready to send their results if they are not so brilliant as those already published.
2) Few people are ready to discuss all the silly mistakes they made.
3) Reading the detail of what others have done might partly spoil one part of the pleasure, namely the pleasure of discovering new territories and special features.
4) It seems that many people are happy to have a record to beat.

Meanwhile, I have become some sort of a 'scenario addict' (and shall probably be mostly playing scenarios from now on).

Therefore I start a new thread named 'scenarios: conflicts in civilization', where I shall publish the results obtained (by me or by anyone willing to have a try) and a few words about what I liked and disliked (still willing to discuss strategy and silly mistakes, but not before several people have played that scenario and have something to say about it).

[Hermann the Lombard]

La Fayette,

(I almost addressed you as "Marquis" but that title is pre-empted here, I think. )

I finally found a 2.42 version of Alexander, but it is obviously very different from the one you were playing. In particular, there is no "Alexander" unit, and there are 21 objectives instead of 30 (or 9), with no "x3" cities, and Babylon is "x2," to name differences I can see from the thread.

First try was rather pathetic, though the outcome was never in doubt. Conquered the last objective, Memphis, in June 325. In retrospect, I didn't concentrate on my strategy (no wonder my results were lousy ) and didn't really hurry all that much.

Built some caravans first to speed up my research, establishing three routes for each of the original three cities. I knew I'd never have much trade, but seeing "54 turns" at max science was discouraging, and I wanted Iron Working for heavy work.

Let's see...1st target was Thrace, "because it is there." Almost pointless since I destroyed the city, though that meant there were no "nuisance units" troubling my land route. Got a lot of gold from Phoenicia and Egypt for peace treaties. When I attacked Persian units those two (and the Independents) declared war, so I got more gold from some of them for peace a few turns later. Nice racket while it lasts.

Took Sardis from Persia, took Ephesus to force peace. Bribed Ancyra. Bribed several Persian units to speed my progress down the road, and IIRC I bribed Nisibus. Hmm...no gold left.

Independents attacked, so I conquered their cities in Asia Minor and Rhodes. Bribed Sparta and Salamis (by then Size 5), and slowly disbanded it, sending the settlers elsewhere. [Near the end of the game, I disbanded it and refounded at the better site. Kinda pointless this way.]

Started skirmishing with Egypt and Phoenicia from the river north of Aradus over to Nisibus. Ended up conquering the Phoenicians to stop the annoyance (but dividing my efforts).

VERY gradual approach to Babylon, down both rivers and setting up TWO adjacent forts (don't ask me why)...but I didn't block their reinforcements. Brought up enough catapults to destroy the defenders, but delayed until I could deliver several caravans to Babylon to bring in another tech (Bridge Building). Then hammered the defenders and took the Hanging Gardens, thus reducing my happiness problems.

Susa fell shortly thereafter (IIRC) with some judicious bribes of Persian legions to get through the mountains, then "siege works" (an adjacent fort), then the catapult array. Took some prep before Persepolis, then smashed it down to Size Four (accidentally). City never recovered, verging on starvation the rest of the game.

Up to this point, I was planning to go for the decisive win (16 cities), but here I decided to go for all objectives. This meant I needed both Memphis and Sagala, where I had planned to leave Egypt alone.

"Going deep" to get Sagala I emphasized elephants and diplomats (for speed). Bribed the Persian cities along the road. Took Ectbatana en passant. (No, it wasn't that casual. The catapults late for the party at Persepolis did the job.) Used diplos to slide under a big Indian city next to the road west of Sagala. Built fort next to Sagala under ceasefire. Again, failed to block reinforcements. Got chewed up by counterattacks, as elephants are very brittle. Used massed diplomats to destroy the walls (and everything else of value)...then didn't have enough elephants to TAKE the damned city. Had to bring up a second wave, belatedly isolating Sagala, partly by bribing units which were trying to relieve the city. By the end, legions and catapults reached Sagala (well, at least one of each did).

Meanwhile, my slower forces massed at Gaza. I *thought* I had enough catapults to do the job. Well, I had enough for Pelusium, but not for Memphis. Expended almost all of them, including a couple lost to sallies from Memphis (speaking of brittle units). I needed good infantry (legions or pikes) to absorb the counterattacks. [Combined arms, son. Combined arms.]

On the tech front, I kept science high until I got Bridge Building. Traded for Poly rather late. Eventually got Feudalism from India as tribute. [Nuts. There go the warriors for incremental rushbuying.]

Back to Memphis. Much like Sagala, I smashed the walls with diplos (having lost my catapults) and then my attack petered out for want of reserves. In this case, the third wave took the city.

I realize I'm way behind the curve, here, but I'm going to try a second time with some different ideas than I've seen in the thread. I'll post results once real life gives me time for the scenario.

-- Hermann

[La Fayette]

Hermann
Thank you for this detailed post.
I grant you a gold medal for Apolytoners having played a scenario, having finished it not quite as fast as DrFell or Marquis de Sodaq or La Fayette, and still able to post .
This is partly a friendly competition, but it is mostly a means to have fun and improve one's level (one can have pleasure cycling, even if one is sure not to have the pair of legs of Lance Armstrong).

1) About the game, the specialists say that there are many slightly different versions of most scenarios. For 'Alexandre' DrFell published a complete list of 16 objectives on this thread (9 objectives valued 1 + 7 objectives valued 3, for a total value of 30). We all played our second game according to that list (it seems that you are at least playing on the same map, reading the cities' names that you mention).
2) About the way you played, it seems that you changed your mind several times during your game. This is generally not in favour of quick results. If you decide to have a second try, it will certainly be a very good idea to read carefully what DrFell wrote about his record game. Then you can make your own choices knowing which choices previously proved to be successful.
3) Please post next time (at least I have pleasure reading you ).

[Hermann the Lombard]

La Fayette,

My version has the same objectives, but with different weights. There are no "x3" objectives, and the following are "x2" (with the rest of Dr.Fell's list "x1."

Persepolis
Sagala
Memphis
Athens

So my total is 21, but the same cities are required for a clean sweep.

Yes, I know I "changed my mind" several times. That's part of what I meant by not really having a strategy. It's fine to *change* strategy in response to changing circumstances, but lack of clear strategy is (at best) inefficient.

More anon...

[Hermann the Lombard]

La Fayette,

Dr. Fell is safe from me, as well. My second try improved on my first by exactly three years, to August 328, but I would need to improve *another* three years to best Dr. Fell.

This time my strategy was clearer. The wrinkle I tried was to incorporate some elements of ICS, specifically to produce one settler from each of my first three cities, then founding three cities with those, and then three cities FROM those, and so on. The city built as a "bridge" over the river south of the Military Camp paid for itself, I believe, just by speeding my reinforcements from Pella. (Those built in Athens and Thebes--and later Sparta--I ferried across to Anatolia.) I'm less sure about the others, as the extra cities may have caused more damage via unhappiness than benefit from additional units.

I used Sparta as a generator of NONE Settlers and a catapult or two. Eventually I bribed it and set it to producing diplomats.

I still diverted forces to conquering the Military Camp, fearing that stray Thracian units would interfere with my flow of reinforcements. Dr. Fell's experience suggests this was a waste of energy. (Perhaps not of time, as my faster units went ahead and swiftly took Sardis.) I was much quicker to Nisibus this time. I still took Babylon to get the Hanging Gardens and thus fewer riots.

Susa fell fairly easily, and Babylon *much* more easily than last time, as this time I sent elephants beyond the city to reduce reinforcements, and I didn't dawdle this time bringing caravans to Babylon before taking it.

Started up the Road to Sagala (Bing Crosby, Bob Hope, and Dorothy Lamour, right?) before taking Persepolis. Sagala fell much earlier than last time, and earlier relatively, as well.

The southern force went by way of Halicarnassus. It's a bit slow getting from there to Tyre. Last time I built more roads first, this time I disbanded a Greek city next to the river at the NE "corner" of the Med to build a bridge city on the river. Heavy fight for Tyre as the Phoenicians killed my elephant which tried to block reinforcements.

Pelusium fell quickly, then I needed a couple of turns to prepare my assault on Memphis. Elephants (and a bribed archer) cut off the city. Still five defenders and a settler inside. I pre-worked a couple of Settlers and built a fortress adjacent to the city, but NOT on the Nile as many of my units would have needed one extra turn to reach that location. I did not blow the walls this time. Instead, 7 vet catapults led the attack...killing only 3 defenders. Then the elephants went to work, dying in bulk (so to speak) beneath the walls. I *almost* ran out of attackers. Well, I *did* run out, but bribed an Egyptian elephant to occupy the city.

I think I might try one more time, to see if a leaner, meaner approach can shave off another three years. Obviously, as a third try I can't fairly displace the Doctor, even if I succeed...but my game should improve as a result.

Also, there seem to be few of the other scenarios that I can try.

Speaking of which, please note that the v2.42 version of Alexander does not HAVE Alexander, or Companions, or Heavy Cavalry. I'm working with plain vanilla units, here.

[La Fayette]

Hermann
I remember that SG1 wrote about having a try at Alexandre a few weeks ago. If he does, this will give you a fair comparison between your game and what a true ICSer might be willing to do (but he seems to be very busy modernizing his lab, so ... wait and see).
If you shorten your trip by 3 years any time you have a try, I would advise to have 2 more tries .
Well done anyway. Congratulations.

[Hermann the Lombard]

La Fayette,

"Progress is our most important product . . . along with PCBs in the Hudson River" (General Electric)

First of all, I realized that Babylon *is* an objective in the Alex. scenario that I have.

Second, my third attempt came up fourth...I mean, my attempt came up short. This time I only improved by two years instead of the three I needed. So as you said, "two more times."

I'll post detailed dates if you like, but basically I didn't start south early enough, putting too much emphasis on the east. (Susa Dec 333; Persepolis Mar 332; but also Bactra Mar 332; Pelusium Jan 330; Memphis Jul 330...also Sagala Nov 331 as I eased up there knowing I was lagging in the south).

But progress, indeed!

[La Fayette]

Originally posted by Hermann the Lombard
La Fayette,

"Progress is our most important product . . . along with PCBs in the Hudson River" (General Electric)
But progress, indeed!

I don't know what a PCB is, but your progress is impressive, Hermann. Of course it doesn't mean that you are suddenly THAT much better (previous experiments are of course a great help) but still...
IMO some degree of competition between samson and solo makes early landing earlier, and some degree of competition against oneself (or even the other guys playing scenarios helps improve one's level.
Go on, Hermann! It works!



(La Fayette having a look at Hermann's results)