The Making of Jutland!

[Berzerker]

This thread is devoted to the making of the battles of Jutland, Dogger Bank, and possibly a wider scope on WWI naval warfare between the British and Germans. Here are the ships and their characteristics involved at Dogger Bank, a precursor to Jutland:

Dogger Bank:

BRITISH

First Battlecruiser Squadron
Lion (Vice-Admiral Beatty)(1912, 26,270 tons, 27 knots, 9in belt, 8x13.5in/16x4in)
Princess Royal (1912, 26,270 tons, 27 knots, 9in belt, 8x13.5in/16x4in)
Tiger (1914, 28,430 tons, 28 knots, 9in belt, 8x13.5in/12x6in)

Second Battlecruiser Squadron
New Zealand (Rear-Admiral Moore)(1912, 18,500 tons, 26 knots, 6in belt, 8x12in/16x4in)
Indomitable (1908, 17,250 tons, 25 knots, 6in belt, 8x12in/16x4in)

First Light Cruiser Squadron
Southampton (Commodore Goodenough)(1912, 5,400 tons, 25 knots, 3in belt, 8x6in/2x21in Torp)
Birmingham (1914, 5,440 tons, 25 knots, 3in belt, 9x6in/2x21in Torp)
Nottingham (" " " " " " ")
Lowestoft (" " " " " " ")

Harwich Force

Arethusa (Commodore Tyrwhitt)(1914, 3,750 tons, 28 knots, 3in belt, 2x6in/6x4in/4x21in Torp)

Attached Destroyers (soon to become the Tenth Destroyer Flotilla)
Meteor (Commander Meade)
Miranda
Milne
Mentor
Mastiff
Minos
Morris.

Third Destroyer Flotilla
Undaunted (Captain St. George)
Lookout
Lysander
Landrail
Laurel
Liberty
Laertes
Lucifer
Lawford
Lydia
Louis
Legion
Lark

First Destroyer Flotilla
Aurora (Captain Nicholson)
Acheron
Attack
Hydra
Ariel
Forester
Defender
Druid
Hornet
Tigress
Sandfly
Jackall
Goshawk
Phoenix
Lapwing

GERMAN

First Scouting Group (Battlecruisers)
Seydlitz (Vice-Admiral Hipper)(1913, 23,707 tons, 27 knots, 11.75in belt, 10x11in/12x5.9in)
Moltke (1912, 22,616 tons, 26 knots, 10.5in belt, 10x11in/12x5.9in)
Derfflinger (1914, 26,180 tons, 27 knots, 11.75in belt, 8x12in/12x5.9in)
Blucher (1910, 15,590 tons, 23 knots, 7in belt, 12x8.2in/8x5.9in/4x17.7 Torp)

Second Scouting Group (Light Cruisers)
Graundez (Rear-Admiral Hebbingbaus)(1914, 4,842 tons, 27 knots, 2.25in belt, 12x4.1in/4x19.7in Torp)
Rostock (1914, 4,900 tons, 27 knots, 2.25in belt, 12x4.1in/2x19.7in Torp)
Kolberg (1910, 4,362 tons, 26 knots, 1in deck, 12x4.1in/2x17.7in Torp)
Stralsund (1912, 4,570 tons, 2.25in belt, 1.5in deck, 12x4.1in/2x19.7in Torp)

V Torpedo Boat Flotilla
V2
V3
V4
V5
V6
G7
G8
G9
G10

II Torpedo Boat Half Flotilla
V192
V193
V194
V195
V196

XVIII Torpedo Boat Flotilla
V30
S34
S33
V29
S35

No info yet on destroyers and torpedo boats. Here is a nice link provided by Boco:

http://www.geocities.com/darrenmilford/dogger.htm

[Berzerker]

Jutland:

British Grand Fleet
The Battle Fleet

2nd Battle Squadron
1st Division
King George V- Cap Field, V-Adm Jerram (1912, 23,300 tons, 21kts, 12in belt, 10 x 13.5in, 16 x 4in)
Ajax - Cap Baird (1913, 23,300 tons, 21kts, 12in belt, 10 x 13.5in, 16 x 4in)
Centurion - Cap Culme-Seymour (1913, 23,300 tons, 21kts, 12in belt, 10 x 13.5in, 16 x 4in)
Erin - Cap Stanley (1914, 22,780 tons, 21kts, 12in belt, 10 x 13.5in, 16 x 6in)
2nd Division-----------------------------------------------------------------
Orion - Cap Backhouse, R-Adm Leveson (1912, 22,200 tons, 21kts, 12in belt, 10 x 13.5in, 16 x 4in)
Monarch - Cap Borrett (1912, 22,200 tons, 21kts, 12in belt, 10 x 13.5in, 16 x 4in)
Conqueror - Cap Tothill (1912, 22,200 tons, 21kts, 12in belt, 10 x 13.5in, 16 x 4in)
Thunderer - Cap Fergusson (1912, 22,200 tons, 21kts, 12in belt, 10 x 13.5in, 16 x 4in)

4th Battle Squadron
3rd Division
Iron Duke - Cap Dreyer, Adm Jellicoe (1914, 25,820 tons, 21kts, 12in belt, 10 x 13.5in, 12 x 6in)
Royal Oak - Cap MacLachlan (1916, 28,600 tons, 21kts, 13in belt, 8 x 15in, 14 x 6in)
Superb - Cap Hyde-Parker, R-Adm Duff (1909, 18,800 tons, 21kts, 10in belt, 10 x 12in 16 x 4in)
Canada - Cap Nicholson (1914, 28,600 tons, 23kts, 9in belt, 10 x 14in, 16 x 6in)
4th Division------------------------------------------------------------------
Benbow - Cap Parker, V-Adm Sturdee (1914, 25,820 tons, 21kts, 12in belt, 10 x 13.5in, 12 x 6in)
Bellerophon - Cap Bellerophen (1909, 18,800 tons, 21kts, 10in belt, 10 x 12in 16 x 4in)
Temeraire - Cap Underhill (1909, 18,800 tons, 21kts, 10in belt, 10 x 12in 16 x 4in)
Vanguard - Cap **** (1910, 19,560 tons, 21kts, 10in belt, 10 x 12in, 20 x 4in)

1st Battle Squadron
6th Division
Marlborough - Cap Ross, V-Adm Burney (1914, 25,820 tons, 21kts, 12in belt, 10 x 13.5in, 12 x 6in)
Revenge - Cap Kiddle (1916, 28,600 tons, 21kts, 13in belt, 8 x 15in, 14 x 6in)
Hercules - Cap Bernard (1911, 20,225 tons, 21kts, 11in belt, 10 x 12in 14 x 4in)
Agincourt - Cap Doughty (1914, 27,500 tons, 22kts, 9in belt, 14 x 12in, 20 x 6in)
5th Division-------------------------------------------------------------------
Colossus - Cap Pound, R-Adm Gaunt (1911, 20,225 tons, 21kts, 11in belt, 10 x 12in 14 x 4in)
Collingwood - Cap Ley (1910, 19,560 tons, 21kts, 10in belt, 10 x 12in, 20 x 4in)
Neptune - Cap Bernard (1911, 19,680 tons, 21kts, 10in belt, 10 x 12in, 16 x 4in)
St Vincent - Cap Fisher (1909, 19,560 tons, 21kts, 10in belt, 10 x 12in, 20 x 4in)

3rd Battlecruiser Squadon
Invincible - Cap Cay, R-Adm Hood (1909, 17,250 tons, 25kts, 6in belt, 8 x 12in 16 x 4in)
Inflexible - Cap Heaton-Ellis (1908, 17,250 tons, 25kts, 6in belt, 8 x 12in 16 x 4in)
Indomitable - Cap Kennedy (1908, 17,250 tons, 25kts, 6in belt, 8 x 12in 16 x 4in)

1st Cruiser Squadron (Armoured Cruisers)
Defence - Cap Ellis, R-Adm Arbuthnot (14,600 tons, 23kts, 6in belt, 4 x 9.2in, 10 x 7.5in 5 x 18in TT)
Warrior - Cap Molteno (1906, 13,550 tons, 23kts, 6in belt, 6 x 9.2in, 4 x 7.5in, 3 x 18in TT)
Duke of Edinburgh - Cap Blackett (1906, 13,550 tons, 23kts, 6in belt, 6 x 9.2in, 10 x 6in, 3 x 18in TT)
Black Prince - Cap Bonham (1906, 13,550 tons, 23kts, 6in belt, 6 x 9.2in, 10 x 6in, 3 x 18in TT)

2nd Cruiser Squadron (Armoured Cruisers)
Minotaur - Cap d'Aeth, R-Adm Heath(1908, 14,600 tons, 23kts, 6in belt, 4 x 9.2in, 10 x 7.5in 5 x 18in TT)
Hampshire - Cap Savill (1905, 10,850 tons, 22kts, 6in belt, 4 x 7.5 in, 6 x 6in 2 x 18in TT)
Cochrane - Cap Leatham (1906, 13,550 tons, 23kts, 6in belt, 6 x 9.2in, 4 x 7.5in, 3 x 18in TT)
Shannon - Cap Dumaresq (1908, 14,600 tons, 23kts, 6in belt, 4 x 9.2in, 10 x 7.5in 5 x 18in TT)

4th Light Cruiser Squadron
Calliope - Comm Le Mesurier (1915, 4,228 tons, 28kts, 4in belt 2 x 6 in, 8 x 4 in, 2 x 21 in TT)
Constance - Cap Townsend (1916, 4,320 tons, 28kts, 3in belt, 2 x 6 in, 8 x 4 in, 2 x 21 in TT)
Caroline - Cap Crooke (1914, 4,219 tons, 28kts, 3in belt, 2 x 6 in, 8 x 4 in, 4 x 21 in TT)
Royalist - Cap Meade (1915, 3,750 tons, 28kts, 3in belt, 2 x 6 in, 6 x 4 in, 4 x 21 in TT)
Comus - Cap Hotham (1915, 4,219 tons, 28kts, 3in belt, 2 x 6 in, 8 x 4 in, 4 x 21 in TT)

Attached Light Cruisers
Active - Cap Withers (1911, 3,330 tons, 25kts, 1in over machinery, 10 x 4 in, 2 x 21 in TT)
Bellona - Cap Dutton (1909, 3,300 tons, 25kts, 1in over machinery, 6 x 4 in, 2 x 18 in TT)
Blanche - Cap Casement (1911, 3,350 tons, 24kts, 1.5in over machinery, 10 x 4 in, 2 x 21 in TT)
Boadicea - Cap Casement (1908, 3,300 tons, 25kts, 1in over machinery, 6 x 4 in, 2 x 18 in TT)
Canterbury - Cap Royds (1916, 4,320 tons, 28kts, 3in belt, 2 x 6 in, 8 x 4 in, 2 x 21 in TT)
Chester - Cap Lawson (1916, 5,185 tons, 25kts, 3in belt, 10 x 5.5 in, 2 x 21 in TT)

4th Destroyer Flotilla
Tipperary - Captain Wintour
Acasta
Achates
Ambuscade
Ardent
Broke
Christopher
Contest
Fortune
Garland
Hardy
Midge
Ophelia
Owl
Porpoise
Shark
Sparrowhawk
Spitfire
Unity

11th Destroyer Flotilla
Castor (Light Cruiser) - Commodore Hawksley
Kempenfelt
Magic
Mandate
Manners
Marne
Martial
Michael
Milbrook
Minion
Mons
Moon
Morning Star
Mounsey
Mystic
Ossory

12th Destroyer Flotilla
Faulknor - Captain Stirling
Maenad
Marksman
Marvel
Mary Rose
Menace
Mindful
Mischief
Munster
Narwhal
Nessus
Noble
Nonsuch
Obedient
Onslaught
Opal

Miscellaneous
Abdiel (Minelayer)
Oak (Destroyer tender)

The Battlecruiser Fleet---------------------------------------------------

1st Battlecruiser Squadron
Lion - Cap Chatfield, V-Adm Beatty (1912, 26,270 tons, 27 knots, 9in belt, 8x13.5in/16x4in)
Princess Royal - Cap Cowan, R-Adm O deB Brock (1912, 26,270 tons, 27 knots, 9in belt, 8x13.5in/16x4in)
Queen Mary - Cap Prowse (1913, 26,770 tons, 27kts, 9in belt, 8 x 13.5in, 16 x 4in)
Tiger - Cap Pelly (1914, 28,430 tons, 28 knots, 9in belt, 8x13.5in/12x6in)

2nd Battlecruiser Squadron
New Zealand - Cap Green, R-Adm Pakenham (1912, 18,500 tons, 26 knots, 6in belt, 8x12in/16x4in)
Indefatigable - Cap Sowerby (1908, 17,250 tons, 25 knots, 6in belt, 8x12in/16x4in)

5th Battle Squadron
Barham - Cap Craig, R-Adm Evan-Thomas (1915, 27,500 tons, 25kts, 13in belt, 8 x 15in, 14 x 6in)
Valiant - Cap Woollcombe (1916, 27,500 tons, 25kts, 13in belt, 8 x 15in, 14 x 6in)
Warspite - Cap Philpotts (1915, 27,500 tons, 25kts, 13in belt, 8 x 15in, 14 x 6in)
Malaya - Cap Boyle (1916, 27,500 tons, 25kts, 13in belt, 8 x 15in, 14 x 6in)

1st Light Cruiser Squadron
Galatea - Comm. Alexander-Sinclair (1915, 3,750 tons, 28kts, 3in belt, 2 x 6 in, 6 x 4 in, 4 x 21 in TT)
Phaeton - Cap Cameron (1915, 3,750 tons, 28kts, 3in belt, 2 x 6 in, 6 x 4 in, 4 x 21 in TT)
Inconstant - Cap Thesiger (1915, 3,750 tons, 28kts, 3in belt, 2 x 6 in, 6 x 4 in, 4 x 21 in TT)
Cordelia - Cap Beamish (1915, 4,219 tons, 28kts, 3in belt, 2 x 6 in, 8 x 4 in, 4 x 21 in TT)

2nd Light Cruiser Squadron
Southampton - Comm. Goodenough (1912, 5,400 tons, 25kts, 3in belt, 8 x 6 in, 2 x 21 in TT)
Birmingham - Cap Duff (1914, 5,440 tons, 25kts, 3in belt, 9 x 6 in, 2 x 21 in TT)
Nottingham - Cap Miller (1914, 5,440 tons, 25kts, 3in belt, 9 x 6 in, 2 x 21 in TT)
Dublin - Cap Scott (1913, 5,400 tons, 25kts, 3in belt, 8 x 6 in, 2 x 21 in TT)

3rd Light Cruiser Squadron
Falmouth - Cap Edwards, R-Adm Napier (1911, 5,250 tons, 25kts, 2in deck, 8 x 6 in, 2 x 21 in TT)
Yarmouth - Cap Pratt (1912, 5,250 tons, 25kts, 2in deck, 8 x 6 in, 2 x 21 in TT)
Birkenhead - Cap Reeves (1915, 5,185 tons, 25kts, 3in belt, 10 x 5.5 in, 2 x 21 in TT)
Gloucester - Cap Blunt (1910, 4,800 tons, 25kts, 2in deck, 2 x 6 in, 2 x 18 in TT)
Seaplane Carrier
Engadine

1st Destroyer Flotilla
Fearless (Light Cruiser) - Captain Roper
Acheron
Ariel
Attack
Badger
Defender
Goshawk
Hydra
Lapwing
Lizard.

9th and 10th Destroyer Flotillas (combined)
Lydiard - Commander Goldsmith
Landrail
Laurel
Liberty
Moorsom
Morris
Termagant
Turbulent

13th Destroyer Flotilla
Champion (Light Cruiser) - Captain Farie
Moresby
Narborough
Nerissa
Nestor
Nicator
Nomad
Obdurate
Onslow
Pelican
Petard
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

German High Seas Fleet
The Battle Fleet

III Battle Squadron
5th Division
Konig - Capt Bruninghaus, R-Adm Behncke (1915, 25,391 tons, 21kts, 13.75in belt, 10 x 12in, 14 x 5.9in)
Grosser Kurfurst - Cap Goette (1914, 25,391 tons, 21kts, 13.75in belt, 10 x 12in, 14 x 5.9in)
Kronprinz Wilhelm - Cap Feldt (1915, 25,391 tons, 21kts, 13.75in belt, 10 x 12in, 14 x 5.9in)
Markgraf - Cap Seiferling (1915, 25,391 tons, 21kts, 13.75in belt, 10 x 12in, 14 x 5.9in)
6th Division
Kaiser - Cap Keyserlingk, R-Adm Nordmann (1912, 24,333 tons, 21kts, 13.75in belt, 10 x 12in, 14 x 5.9in)
Kaiserin - Cap Sievers (1913, 24,333 tons, 21kts, 13.75in belt, 10 x 12in, 14 x 5.9in)
Prinzregent Luitpold - Cap Heuser (1913, 24,333 tons, 21kts, 13.75in belt, 10 x 12in, 14 x 5.9in)
Fredrich der Grosse - Cap Fuchs, V-Adm Scheer (1913, 24,333 tons, 21kts, 13.75in belt, 10 x 12in, 14 x 5.9in)*
*(thicker side armor)

I Battle Squadron
1st Division
Ostfriesland - Cap Natzmer, V-Adm Schmidt (1911, 22,437 tons, 21kts, 11.75in belt, 12 x12in, 14 x 5.9in)
Thuringen - Cap Kusel (1911, 22,437 tons, 21kts, 11.75in belt, 12 x12in, 14 x 5.9in)
Helgoland - Cap von Kameke (1911, 22,437 tons, 21kts, 11.75in belt, 12 x12in, 14 x 5.9in)
Oldenburg - Cap Redlich (1912, 22,437 tons, 21kts, 11.75in belt, 12 x12in, 14 x 5.9in)
2nd Division
Posen - Cap Lange, R-Adm Engelhardt (1910, 18,569 tons, 20kts, 11.75in belt, 12 x 11in, 12 x 5.9in)
Rheinland - Cap Rohardt (1910, 18,569 tons, 20kts, 11.75in belt, 12 x 11in, 12 x 5.9in)
Nassau - Cap Klappenbach (1910, 18,569 tons, 20kts, 11.75in belt, 12 x 11in, 12 x 5.9in)
Westfalen - Cap Redlich (1910, 18,569 tons, 20kts, 11.75in belt, 12 x 11in, 12 x 5.9in)

II Battle Squadron
3rd Division
Deutschland - Cap Meurer, R-Adm Mauve (1906, 13,993 tons, 18kts, 9.75in, 4 x 12in, 14 x 6.7in)
Hessen - Cap Bartels (1905, 14,167 tons, 18kts, 9in belt, 4 x 11in, 14 x 6.7in)
Pommern - Cap Bolken (1907, 13,993 tons, 18kts, 9.75in, 4 x 12in, 14 x 6.7in)
4th Division
Hannover - Cap Heine, R-Adm von Dalwigk zu Lichtenfels (1907, 13,993 tons, 18kts, 9.75in, 4 x 12in, 14 x 6.7in)
Schlesien - Cap Behncke (1908, 13,993 tons, 18kts, 9.75in, 4 x 12in, 14 x 6.7in)
Schleswig-Holstein - Cap Barrentrapp (1908, 13,993 tons, 18kts, 9.75in, 4 x 12in, 14 x 6.7in)

IV Scouting Group (Light Cruisers)
Stettin - Cap Rebensburg, Comm. von Reuter (1907, 3,390 tons, 23kts, 1.75in deck, 10 x 4.1 in, 2 x 17.7 in TT)
Munchen - Cap Bocker (1905, 3,250 tons, 23kts, 1.9in deck, 10 x 4.1 in, 2 x 17.7 in TT)
Hamburg - Cap von Gaudecker (1904, 3,250 tons, 23kts, 1.9in deck, 10 x 4.1 in, 2 x 17.7 in TT)
Frauenlob - Cap Hoffmann (1903, 3,130 tons, 21kts, no belt, 2in deck, 10 x 4.1 in, 2 x 17.7 in TT)
Stuttgart - Cap Hagedorn (1908, 3,390 tons, 23kts, 1.75in deck, 10 x 4.1 in, 2 x 17.7 in TT)

Light Cruiser broad pendant Torpedo-Boats
Rostock - Cap Feldmann, Comm, Michelson (1914, 4,900 tons, 27kts, 2.25 in belt, 12 x 4.1 in, 2 x 19.7 in TT)

I Torpedo-Boat Flotilla
G39 - Commander Albrecht
G40
G38
S32

III Torpedo-Boat Flotilla
S53 - Commander Hollmann
V71
V73
G88
S54
V48
G42

V Torpedo-Boat Flotilla
G11 - Commander Heinecke
V2
V4
V6
V1
V3
G8
G7
V5
G9
G10

VII Torpedo-Boat Flotilla
S24 - Commander von Koch
S15
S17
S20
S16
S18
S19
S23
V186
V189

I Scouting Group (Battlecruisers)
Lutzow - Cap Harder, V-Adm Hipper (1916, 26,180 tons, 27kts, 11.75in belt, 8 x 12 in, 12 x 5.9in)
Derfflinger - Cap Hartog (1914, 26,180 tons, 27kts, 11.75in belt, 8 x 12 in, 12 x 5.9in)
Seydlitz - Cap von Egidy (1913, 23,707 tons, 27kts, 11.75 belt, 10 x 11in, 12 x 5.9in)
Moltke - Cap von Karpf (1912, 22,616 tons, 26kts, 10.5in belt, 10 x 11in, 12 x 5.9in)
Von der Tann - Cap Zenker (1911, 19,064 tons, 25kts, 10in belt, 8 x 11in, 10 x 5.9in)

II Scouting Group (Light Cruisers)
Frankfurt - Cap von Trotha, R-Adm Bodicker (1915, 5,120 tons, 28kts, 2.25 in belt, 8 x 5.9 in, 4 x 19.7 in TT)
Wiesbaden - Cap Reiss (1915, 5,120 tons, 28kts, 2.25 in belt, 8 x 5.9 in, 4 x 19.7 in TT)
Pilau - Cap Mommsen (1914, 4,320 tons, 27kts, 3 in deck, 8 x 5.9 in, 2 x 19.7 in TT)
Elbing - Cap Madlung (1915, 4,320 tons, 27kts, 3 in deck, 8 x 5.9 in, 2 x 19.7 in TT)

Light Cruiser broad pendant Torpedo-Boats
Regensburg - Cap Heuberer, Comm. Heinrich (1915, 4,842 tons, 27kts, 2.25 in belt, 12 x 4.1 in, 4 x 19.7 in TT)

II Torpedo-Boat Flotilla
B98 - Captain Schuur
G101
G102
B112
B97
B109
B110
B111
G103
G104

VI Torpedo-Boat Flotilla
G41 - Commander Schultz
V44
G87
G86
V69
V45
V46
S50
G37

IX Torpedo-Boat Flotilla
V28 - Commander Goehle
V27
V26
S36
S51
S52
V30
S34
S33
V29
S35

[JMarks]

Alright Berserk! For concept testing, it propably would be best to do Dogger Bank. Of course info on the destroyers and torpedo boats will be essential. For destroyers and torpedo boats, for simplicity, just give the different classes, since in bigger battles we'll have to generalize them anyway. I wouldn't imagine much more than two or three different destroyers or torps for either side. Oh, and I hate to do this, but the speed is very essential part to the list, so I'll need to know that. Double for that CA that had trouble keeping up.

OK, wasn't the effective range of the big guns a couple of miles? Was it 5 miles by this time? I'm thinking roughly 5-10 mile squares for scale, and about 15 minutes a turn.

Anyone know around how many torps a torp boat had? How about those German CLs?

Things seem to be shaping up well.

Ioanes

[Berzerker]

JMarks, ok, the destroyers and torpedo boats can be represented by 3 or 4 units, but I was reading about the battle at Boco's site and apparently the German small craft (torp boats, destroyers, were better than the British at night fighting. Since I dont expect a scenario to have both day and night fighting, maybe we should provide the German small craft with some kind of advantage to account for their night-fighting abilities.

I dont have info on the destroyers and torpedo boats concerning armaments, speed, and armor. Maybe Boco can help us out. I'll search his site for links. I did read somewhere that some of the small craft - perhaps destroyers - could attain upwards of 35-37 knots, but I'm not positive. We'll have to start with rating the best ships involved and work our way down. Since that involves just 8 or 9 ships for Dogger Bank, we should have no problem. His site also had maps to give us starting positions for the various fleets. Generally the Brits had better firepower and the Germans had better armor.

Do you want me to compile a list of what I think the stats for the ships should be?

[JMarks]

I would like to actually have a small hand in all this, so we'll work together on the unit stats. Here is my idea, see if it has any credibitlity with you.

Attack/Defense should be the same for the big ships. Each 12-13" gun should have a value of 4, 10-11" will have 3, while 8-9" will be 2 and 4-7" will be 1. Therefore, the Lion class will have an a/d of 48, while the Seydlitz would have an a/d of 42. The firepower should likewise follow a similar increase, though not cumulative. 13.5" guns here shall have a 6, while a 11-12" will get a 5, 8-10" shall have a 4, and so on. I can't think of a decent way to mathmaticly deduce a decent 'average' based on a ships guns, so the final will probably be arbitrary. For instance, the final firepower of the Lion will probably be 5, while the Seydlitz will probably be 4.

The hitpoints shall bel armor roughly divided by 3.

Movement. Based on a top possible speed of aprx. 40 knots, 15 minute turns and 2 mile squares, a fast destroyer will probably go about 5 squares a turn. So most BCs will probably go 3 squares/turn? While the slower ones will go only 2 squares/turn.

Now, to give German destoyers and Torp boats, a night advantage, just give them two space range. Then again, all ships should probably have two space visibility. Therefore possibly give them better attack or defense than their peers.

Let me know what you think! Comments of any and all types are welcome!

Ioanes

[Boco]

A key decision here is how to handle the offensive firepower. Should each ship be handled like a shell factory? This would require ToT and CSPL. Kull posted the following on another thread:

8) (Ch12) Specialized Artillery: .... Imagine having an artillery unit which is able to create a shell unit (a missile) when the player presses a key. Obviously, to avoid players creating infinite shells in the same turn, we need to implement a rule. Let's say that each time an artillery unit "fires", it's health bar goes down by 1/3. When it is under 50% (let's say), we cannot fire but we have to wait until the health bar goes over 50%. OK, this is exactly what we're going to implement.

This approach would probably necessitate a scale around 1,000 yards a square. It would also require knowledge of C (any volunteers?). The ships themselves would have a small attack strength representing small calibre guns. Their real offensive capability would lie in CSPL-generated missile units. Ships would generate shells/torpedoes appropriate for their armament and perhaps for the desired range.

Alternately, the scale could be increased to ~8,000-10,000 yards a square. Just about all the ships had this range, but it doesn't simulate the ability of BB's to fire out to 20,000 yards (albeit with considerably less effectiveness. A more serious problem with this approach involves stacking. Historically, several ships would sail in line within the space of one square. Losing all ships in a square when a single one is sunk is a bitter pill to swallow. Two workarounds would be (1) make every sea square a fortress (any way to do this other than brute force hex editing?) or (2) make units represent "Battle squadrons" and light ship "Flotillas".

Any other ideas?

[JMarks]

Alternately, the scale could be increased to ~8,000-10,000 yards a square. Just about all the ships had this range, but it doesn't simulate the ability of BB's to fire out to 20,000 yards (albeit with considerably less effectiveness. A more serious problem with this approach involves stacking. Historically, several ships would sail in line within the space of one square. Losing all ships in a square when a single one is sunk is a bitter pill to swallow. Two workarounds would be (1) make every sea square a fortress (any way to do this other than brute force hex editing?) or (2) make units represent "Battle squadrons" and light ship "Flotillas".

Boco, you forgot something important. idea 1 can be used without hex editing. Since this will be a sea based scenario, just make the sea using land squares. Then cover with fortresses, except in straights perhaps. Then, if one wishes to get real creative, one could make 'currents' or rough seas, etc.

The ToT idea might work if we want to use shells, which I think is a perfectly good idea. However, the question will be how many people interested in the idea have ToT? Berserker? I will suggest we continue with the MGE scenario first. Besides, I don't know C

Thoughts anyone?

[Berzerker]

I'm sorry, I'll need a few days to come up with my thoughts on unit strengths. I'd rather see a bit more variability among the final stats but I'm not the one making the scenario so I dont want to overburden you with my attempts at fine-tuning. For example, looking at the British BC's shows that the Tiger had a stronger secondary battery of guns than the Lion, so I would like to see the Tiger with more firepower. On the other side, the Frederich de Grosse of the Konig class had more belt/side armor than any other ship in the battle. This should afford that specific ship either more hit points or a stronger defense factor. But that is for Jutland, so I will try to stick to Dogger Bank for right now, be back in a couple days...

[JMarks]

It looks like we'll have enough variation for Dogger's Bank. As you stated with the Tiger and the Lion there are variations. In fact, the secondary BC's are different than the first too. Lets see.... Looks like there'll be ten to 12 different ships for each side. That sounds like enough.

Can anyone get me a sight with a plethra of pictures relevant to these scenarios? I can't find them myself. Mabey I'm using the wrong search engine...

Ioanes

[The ANZAC]

I heard from Kull or Miner or somebody involved with CSPL that it is possible to use the program in FW just nobody has documented the code. Hope that helps, I'm interested to see this scenario, even though I have ToT also and either way is fine with me.

[Scott F]

I have a copy of Jane's Fighting Ships of WW1 that has quite a few drawings and black and white photographs in it of all sorts of ships from Jutland (and every other navy on earth too). Unfortunately, I lack artistic talent and do not have a scanner.

Also, Jane's lists German torpedo boats as having anywhere from one to four torpedo tubes, with some British boats having as many as five or six.

Information on larger warships can be found at:

http://warships1.com/index_ships.htm

[Boco]

Can anyone get me a sight with a plethra of pictures relevant to these scenarios? I can't find them myself.

JMarks there are a lot of WWI ship photos at :

http://raven.cc.ukans.edu/~kansite/w...s/seashipa.htm (Allies)

http://raven.cc.ukans.edu/~kansite/w...s/seashipc.htm (Central Powers)

I've had luck searching with Google using with the ship's name, "wwi", and "photo".

[JMarks]

Thanks everyone, some of these sights are really helpful. I'll try my hand at this. Here's a nice profile of Lion BC.



Cheerio!

Ioanes

[The ANZAC]

Since you all seem to be knowledgeable in ships, could anyone give me a picture of the HMS Repulse circa 1941?

[Boco]

Here's one, but it's not great for making an unit icon. If I can find a better one, I'll pass it on.

The site:
http://www.naval-history.net/WW2Brit...attleships.htm

[Boco]

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/s...-r/repulse.htm

This site has a number of photos of the Repulse, mainly from the 20's. Some are pretty good, if your willing to compromise by a few decades. I haven't checked, but suspect that most of the changes since then were in AA armament, details which aren't really seen in unit icons.

If a search for the Repulse doesn't work, you could always try the Renown.

[The ANZAC]

Thanks those pictures should work fine.

[JMarks]

OK, here is my first attempt at this icon thing. See if its any good.
[img]D:\Games\mps\Civilization II Multiplayer Gold Edition\SCENARIO\Dreadnaught\Lion.gif[/img]
Any comments? Please be constructive, this is my first time creating one like this (not shrinking) and I've only had 30 min before work.

Ioanes

[Case]

I think that you may have made a mistake posting the picture, all I see is that damned red x

[JMarks]

Sorry about that, I'll try it here as a download. See if it works.
Can anyone else see it?

Ioanes

[JMarks]

Does this work?

[Case]

Your first post works and the second one dosn't.
From the first post the unit looks great

[JMarks]

I'll be tackling the Tiger next. It looks like this:


Cheerio!

Ioanes

PS If the unit images are only working sporadicly, then I'll mail anyone who is actually interested in seeing them.

[JMarks]

heres the tiger class, I'll try to post it anyway.

[JMarks]

Tiger is here:

[Berzerker]

Dogger Bank: Ship statistics

BRITISH

First Battlecruiser Squadron
Lion 17-12 (H-2)(F-3)(M-9)
Princess Royal 16-12 (H-2)(F-3)(M-9)
Tiger 18-13 (H-2)(F-3)(M-9)

Second Battlecruiser Squadron
New Zealand 15-10 (H-2)(F-3)(M-9)
Indomitable 14-9 (H-2)(F-3)(M-8)

First Light Cruiser Squadron
Southampton 6-5 (H-2)(F-2)(M-8)
Birmingham 7-5 (H-2)(F-2)(M-8)
Nottingham 7-5 (H-2)(F-2)(M-8)
Lowestoft 7-5 (H-2)(F-2)(M-8)

Harwich Force
Arethusa 5-4 (H-2)(F-2)(M-9)

Attached Destroyers (soon to become the Tenth Destroyer Flotilla)
Meteor (Commander Meade)
Miranda
Milne
Mentor
Mastiff
Minos
Morris.


Third Destroyer Flotilla
Undaunted (Captain St. George)
Lookout
Lysander
Landrail
Laurel
Liberty
Laertes
Lucifer
Lawford
Lydia
Louis
Legion
Lark

First Destroyer Flotilla
Aurora (Captain Nicholson)
Acheron
Attack
Hydra
Ariel
Forester
Defender
Druid
Hornet
Tigress
Sandfly
Jackall
Goshawk
Phoenix
Lapwing

Destroyers 3-2 (H-1)(F-2)(11)

GERMAN

First Scouting Group (Battlecruisers)
Seydlitz 17-15 (H-3)(F-3)(M-9)
Moltke 17-14 (H-3)(F-3)(M-9)
Derfflinger 17-15 (H-3)(F-3)(M-9)
Blucher 15-10 (H-2)(F-2)(M-7)

Second Scouting Group (Light Cruisers)
Graundez 4-4 (H-2)(F-2)(M-9)
Rostock 3-4 (H-2)(F-2)(M-9)
Kolberg 3-4 (H-2)(F-2)(M-9)
Stralsund 3-4 (H-2)(F-2)(M-9)

V Torpedo Boat Flotilla
V2
V3
V4
V5
V6
G7
G8
G9
G10

II Torpedo Boat Half Flotilla
V192
V193
V194
V195
V196

XVIII Torpedo Boat Flotilla
V30
S34
S33
V29
S35

Torpedo Boats 3-1 (H-1)(F-2)(M-12)

Okay, I gave the German BC's 3 fire and 3 hit points because of their greater armor and because the Germans are simply outgunned. I am largely in the dark as to how to treat the destroyers and torpedo boats. I gave the Lion an increased attack factor of 1 since it it the British flagship but did not do the same for the German flag since I felt it's slightly weaker firepower did not warrant an attack factor of 18 matching the Tiger. One last point, I'm not sure how to treat the thicker armor on the German BC's. As I said, I gave them 3 hit points, but I also gave them an increased defense factor. You might want to replace the 3 hit points with 2 and maybe bump up their defense factors by one...

Let me know if and when you need help tackling Jutland or a scenario for WWI naval warfare in the N Atlantic.

[JMarks]

Berserker,

Thanks for your input! I'm assuming the movement rate would be based on 1/2 hour-1 hour turn incriments?

If we ever get to Jutland itself, we'll let you know!

By the way, I think I'm going to go back and change the Lion and Tiger graphics, something doesn't float with them (pun intended). Anyway, here's another one to keep spectators interested.

Presenting the Indominatable (hope it shows):
[IMG]D:\Games\mps\Civilization II Multiplayer Gold Edition\SCENARIO\Dreadnaught\Indomitable Indefatigable.bmp[/IMG]

[Boco]

JMarks, the entire Dogger Banks Chase lasted from 7:15am (dawn) to 11:45am on Jan 24 1914. Half hour turns may make for a quick game. ;-)

Any chance you'll post an icon of the SMS Blucher and a CL? I like your icons, and would love to mooch a few.

[Berzerker]

Your welcome, but as I now look at the British light cruisers I may have made them a bit too strong, I doubt they would match up at roughly half the strength of the BC's. But if you reduce them the other lighter ships including the German light cruisers will have to be reduced also. On the other hand, there is the danger of making these lighter ships so weak that they have little to no impact when attacking larger ships. I'm sure 4 British light cruisers could do in the Blucher and possibly a battlecruiser and why couldn't 3 or 4 destroyers sink a BC with torpedoes. Oh well, we aren't going to get perfection...

P.S. I really am hoping for a Jutland scenario and will do the stats for the ships

[Boco]

DD's may be the trickiest to simulate. Their gun armament was worthless in a Dreadnaught engagement, but the threat of torpedo attack struck terror into the heart of every BB/BC captain. Although the DD's carried spares, long reload times usually forced them to withdraw after firing a spread.

Perhaps to mimic this , torps should be represented by missile or air units that can only be based on DD's (1-2 per DD unit). Although this solution is open to several abuses, such as 'ferrying' torps from DD to DD , it does effectively simulate the launch-and-run-for-your-life tactic that DD's employed.

I'm pretty sure that DD's were also the primary smoke layers in the fleet. Smoke could be represented by air units with limited range . It should also be available in very limiting quantities.

I'd also suggest representing flotillas or 1/2 flotillas by a single unit.

Btw, gun and torp accuracies were abysmal. At Dogger Bank, the Germans scored a 1.5% hit accuracy, while the
British only managed 1% (about my free throw percentage). They improved when they were sinking the Blucher from 6,000 yards after it was dead in the water -- a whopping 7.5% . The Tiger fired over a hundred rounds without a single hit ! Torp accuracy was ~5-10%.