Building Factories all at the same time or staggered

Which is better? Same goes for manufacturing plants.

[Ming]

Depends on your needs. I always let each city build what it or my civ needs. With the exception of SDI's, which I will build in every city the minute the tech becomes available to me, each city is treated seperate. Some cities don't have much trade, while others may not have many shields available... so it really depends.

When it comes to factories, I may only build a few at first in the cities that can really use them right. Pollution can be a big problem, so I try to limit how many I have until mass transit, recycling centers, or solar plants are available. I hate wasting too many engineers on pollution clean up every turn.

[jpk]

I agree with Ming. I almost never build factories until I can build mass transit systems and I build solar power systems before manufacturing plants.

[Sieve Too]

In SP I wait until I've built Hoover Dam before building Factories. This way you get double production and pollution reduction for free. But I'm still careful to make sure the city grows no larger than around size 15 if I don't have Mass Transit. After Mass Transit, I build Factories right away.

Manufacturing Plants only go in large, high shield cities with Solar or Recycling Plants.

[Paul]

In normal games I also usually wait until after Hoover to build factories. And in large cities I'll build a mass transit before or immediately after the factory.

[geofelt]

If a city produces 15 or more shields, I don't start building a factory until Hoover dam is close. Otherwise, I will start many cities to building factories, planning to complete them when I het Hoover's. With SOL, I will be fundy if I have no science problems, otherwise, I will build them under communism to reduce the shield support and build them faster. I really try to not miss Hoovers. Otherwise, I have found that it is faster to build the pollution control before the pollution causer. If you don't, you often find that by building the factory first, you actually get LESS production because so many squares must be taken out of service. It is wasteful to have to clean up pollution.

Interesting, I must be into Soviet style development because I put a factory into every city straight away.

[Hasdrubal]

I also usually build factories ASAP. Or rather, about half my cities will, the others must wait 'till this first lot is (nearly) completed. It's too risky too have all your cities engaged in building factories at the same. Mafufacturing Plants are also build ASAP.

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Ceterum censeo Romanem esse delendam.

[Jim W]

quote: Originally posted by Hasdrubal on 06-13-2000 07:09 PM I also usually build factories ASAP. Or rather, about half my cities will, the others must wait 'till this first lot is (nearly) completed. It's too risky too have all your cities engaged in building factories at the same. Mafufacturing Plants are also build ASAP.

I'm with Hasdrubal. I don't wasnt all my production tied up in long-term things like factories. Make 'em one or two at a time.

Jim W

[Ming]

Yeah... but at that point of the game, you should be rolling in cash. Usually, I just buy factories in cities I need them in after a few shields are in the box. So I never worry about production being tied up

[Hasdrubal]

I would if I could! I can't raise the 8000-12000 gold that is needed to buy factories in 20-30 cities in just a few turns. I will spend my money on buying as much factories as I can. The start of the industrial revolution is a crucial stage in the game. Some of the best wonders become available, pollution rears it's ugly head, the AI's get really aggresive. My attention gets diverted on all these topics. I can't afford to have my cities be engaged in just building factories. Altough they are definately on the very top of my list once they become available.

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Ceterum censeo Romanem esse delendam.

[Ely McGreen]

Ming is right- you should have a nice reserve of cash so you can buy your factories. Myself, I prefer to wait until a region has 12 or more shield/turn production and then build- otherwise you wasting cash and money on upkeep.

But when I discover factories the first place to get them is the front lines. Maximum production near the combat zone. Then my core cities and so on.

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Elizer R. McGreen

[jpk]

If you have industrialization but lack money for factories, you aren't building enough caravans. If you build enough caravans, rapid construction of factories is not so important because you can always buy the odd item that you need as soon as possible.

One way to build factories with less cash is to start as usual, then, after a few turns, buy a bank or university and switch back to a factory. If you are willing to take five to ten turns to build a factory rather than build it in two, this method will save a lot of money.

[Edward]

jpk,

Is this what is called "incremental buying". I've heard of this tactic (sounds like too much micromanagement for my personal taste) but don't know how it works.

I think military units (and wonders?) cost more coins per shield to rush buy. I can see how first rush buying a cheap city improvement then switching to an expensive military unit (now with some cheaply bought improvement shields in the pot) and finishing the rush buy will save coins.

How can rush buying a cheaper building (or two) lessen the cost of the final expensive building? And how does rush buying for a number of turns help?

I obviously don't understand the whole rush buying process. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

[jpk]

I call this partial purchase of improvements. To give an example suppose your city produces 20 shields per turn and you want to build a factory. Suppose also the city does not have a University.

If you try to purchase a factory when you have no shields, it takes one turn and the cost is

4*200 = 800 coins.

If you construct the factory for one turn and then purchase the remaining 180 shields the cost is

2*180 = 360 coins.

This method takes two turns and costs 360.

Suppose you construct a factory for one turn, puchase the remaining 140 shields for a university, and then switch back for two turns to complete the factory. This takes four turns and the cost is

2*140 = 280 coins.

As you can see the biggest improvement in out of pocket expense is using two turns. But notice the over 20% reduction in cost if you are willing to take four turns rather than two. If you need to build lots of improvements, this is a good way to stretch your money.

When you are purchasing shields for buildings once there is at least one shield in the box, all shields cost the same, two coins per shield. Units behave differently. If you try to buy 10 shields the cost is 25, if you try to buy 20 shields the cost is 60, if you try to buy 30 shields the cost is 105. If you have no shields in the box the cost is doubled. Notice that the cost of an extra 10 shields increases.

Suppose it is early in the game and you want to get a diplomat. To make things easy I will suppose the city produces 10 shields per turn. Buying the diplomat out right will cost 210 coins. If you purchase a warrior for 50, switch to and purchase a phlanx for an additional 25, and then use production shields to complete the diplomat the total cost is 75. If you are willing to wait two turns you can use one turn to get 10 shields, purchase a phlanx for 25 coins, then use production shields to get the remaining ten shields for a total cost of 25.

THE BASIC RULE OF THUMB: When you are buying shields for a unit, purchase as few shields at any one time as possible. This is tedious if you are building an aircraft carrier.

Note: if you are planning on using a cities normal production to complete the construction of the unit, make sure you position you workers so neither the AI nor barbarians can interfer with your production of shields. If you need a unit so bad that you have to rush build it, you might not want to take that chance. Construction of caravans may be a common exception.

Hope this helps.

[Edward]

jpk,

Wow! This is a whole new world of bargain hunting I didn't know about.

I already knew about the double shield cost if there are no shields in the box. I usually wait one turn, then rush buy. From your diplomat example, I can see where first buying a cheap item (of the same kind) at the inflated double cost, then buying the rest of the shields at normal cost can get you a deal and still build the needed item in one turn. Great for real emergencies where you have to have it now.

You also showed that if you have three or more turns to buy an item, you should make sure that your rush buying is not on the last turn. You can do this by buying a cheaper item (of the same kind), thereby allowing you use the city's shield production on all of your turns.

E.g. Using your example of a city which produces 20 shields, has no shields in its box, wants a factory (200 shields), and can afford to wait a few turns:

Plan A:
turn 1: have 0 shields, work on factory
turn 2: have 20 shields, work on factory
turn 3: have 40 shields, buy factory for 2*(200-40) = 320 gold, now have 200 shields
turn 4: factory built, on to new project
cost = 320 gold

Plan B (using your wonderful incremental buying):
turn 1: have 0 shields, work on factory
turn 2: have 20 shields, switch to university, buy university for 2*(160-20) = 280 gold, now have 160 shields, switch back to factory
turn 3: have 180 shields, work on factory
turn 4: factory built, on to new project
cost = 280 gold

In plan B, we save the 40 gold. It wasn't that university shields cost any less than factory shields. The savings is from getting to use those 20 shields the city produces on the final turn. It also doesn't matter when you buy the cheaper item, as long as you don't buy it on the last turn, nor do you buy it when you have no shields in the box. I bet the savings really pay off in the end game when cities can be producing 60 or more shields.

I had no idea about the ever increasing cost for unit shields. The more unit shields you buy during a given transaction, the greater the cost per shield. It looked like there was a formula for unit shields:
10 shields cost 2.5 gold/shield
20 shields cost 3 gold/shield
30 shields cost 3.5 gold/shield
Is this correct? Does it keep spiralling up at this rate? Ouch!

Your rule of thumb is great. For units, keep buying the cheapest unit (that costs more shields than are in the box) until you finally buy the unit you want.

Thanks for the great info!

[jpk]

Edward, you're welcome. I learned about buying units from some now unknown person who posted it in the Civ2 Strategy forum.

For any city there is usually a trade off between shield production and money and science production.

Say you have a city that normally produces 7 shields per turn and you want to build a caravan. For the first three turns of production purchase the remaining shields for a full row. This will cost 6 coins per turn. Now you need 20 shields. If you stop buying shields you will complete the caravan in three turns and on the last turn put a worker on a square with one less shield and, hopefully, more taxes and science. If after the fourth turn you purchase another three shields you will need 10 shields that will require two turns of five shields each. In either case the caravan will require three turns for completion. You have the option of deciding whether you want to have a net savings of 4 to 6 coins or get a little extra science (depends on circumstances and corruption). Which ever option you use it is a good idea to have the turn with the smallest shield production be the last turn. Some times barbarians or AI civilizations can thwart your carefully laid plans. On a given turn may not have all the shield production you expect.

[TCO]

I build factories first in the cities with the largest shield output. (Same cost in shields but higher return, econ 101). The smaller cities just get to work on temples, etc. When the factory is done, the large forctory cities can build units and settlers to subsidize the smaller cities. Sometimes, I'll rehome the units/settlers. We're talking monarchy/fundy here.

[Seeker]

I will build factories in at least ten cities as soon as I get industrialization. Screw pollution, I have settlers/engineers for that.

The benefits of increased production always outweigh the cost

[Marcel I]

I agree with GP,

I will built factories in the cities that can produce them within 20 turns. Mostly my core cities to start with. When I have the money I'll buy them after a few turns.
The same goes for manufacturing plants.
In my shore cities I will build off-shore platforms ASAP.
I don't rushbuild shield improvements for small cities

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Adopt, Adapt and Improve

[East Street Trader]

If things are going well and I (imagine) I'm in charge of events then, yes, I too prefer to manage out pollution problems. I certainly HATE triggering global warming.

But look - if things look bad I'll get those factories up just as soon as I can and worry about the pollution later - if I'm still around to do so. Or once my space ship is safely off the ground. OK maybe I've not been playing too good to be in this fix but, well, whats new!

[jpk]

kcbob, if your city has everything else it needs factories are a good idea.

If you take the point of view that I do, namely that caravans or freight units are the most important item to produce, then you may wish to maximize their value. This means a city should be as large as possible at least up to size 20. This requires maximizing food production and, if you are in Republic or Democracy, WLT? Days. The items that really help for creating such a situation are harbors, refrigeration, and superhighways. Depending upon the situation you may also need some temples, marketplaces, etc. Once you get engineers transforming deserts, swamps, jungles, and forests to plains and grasslands is also important. Transforming hills and mountains is useful but they seem to take a long time. Do the fast transformations first.

Also don't forget to build those caravans or freight units as nonfood items become available. If you have airports and a reasonable number of cities you can deliver nonfood freight units every turn. In this situation factory production is not so important. If you REALLY need something RIGHT NOW, you can buy it.

The point I wish to make is that if you wish to maximize the impact of caravans or freight, then it is a good idea to get your cities up to a population of 20 as fast as you can. Of course it is important to build tons of caravans while you are doing this.

[SCG]

I tend to agree with jpk. A size 20 city without a factory may well produce more shields than a size 6 city with a factory, not to mention it will produce far more science and gold. Especially if you tend to celebrate WLTxD, getting trade routes and superhighways and banks will be a lot more cost effective than a factory. Granted, at some point, a factory will make sense to build - I occasionally to build them before stock exchanges, and sometimes before the last trade route is in. It usually varies on my total financial and foreign situation. Later in the game I'll build them before libraries if i'm trying to drag the world's science to a halt. I also build more when at war. Pollution is also a problem, and with 2 gold = 1 shield when buying buildings, i find financial gets the nod over production whenever i have the choice.

[kcbob]

I'd not thought about that. Larger population = more shields. Duh!! The first thought that went through my head after hearing this concept was "What about happiness?". The next thought was "Hey, dummy, you got there via WLTx days. Happiness is NOT a problem". But that raises a question. If you use WLTx to increase city sizes and don't throw in temples, colloseums (sic?), et al, are you stuck at that luxury tax level for the duration of the game? It would seem that if you decide to drop luxuries to increase science for a turn or two, you're going to get burned on happiness.

Man, the more I play this game, the more I marvel at Sid and the thought that went in to producing the game in the first place.

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Frodo lives!

Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.

[kcbob]

I'm not sure if I see any logic in NOT building factories. If you are not going to ever build anything again in a city, then fine, don't build the factory. But, if you ARE going to continue to build improvements in your cities, why wouldn't you build the factory as soon as it's available? The extra shields per turn will soon more than pay for the original cost of the factory and put ahead on the time line, n'est-ce pas?

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Frodo lives!

Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.

[Tom DeMille]

With factories comes pollution. This needs to be cleaned up, so engineers who could be doing more important stuff are diverted.

It also increases micromanagement, making the game take longer to complete.

[SCG]

well, if you don't build any temples, colliseums, marketplaces etc, you're stuck using elvi or near 100% luxuries - I try never to raise luxuries past a certain point, so if a city can't celebrate with the structures it has, it doesn't celebrate. Anyway, to celebrate you need to have 50% or more of a city's workers happy, and none unhappy, so you've got a huge cushion of happiness if that city stop celebrating (and wasted luxuries if no city is celebrating), so you can drop luxuries right there and still maintain order. Just keep checking your attitude advisor for cities in the red when you drop luxuries. (keep mind he doesn't always accurate info in larger civs, but you can usually spot potential trouble spots from there and check them out individually) Anyway, as a rep/dem govt, you should have things like temples et all anyway, and to try and redirect this thread back to the topic, once a city is bigger, you can build your factory to help build other things like colliseums or happiness wonders and still bring in the trade

[jpk]

I will assume you are playing on a large, multicontinent world against the AI.

If you are delivering several caravans every turn, then you will get a new technology just about every turn even if your science rate is 60%. Unless you can get more than one science per turn, set you science rate a a point so that with the help of your caravans you fill out your science graph every turn. It is not always easy to guess the value of caravans so leave a margin of error.

Note: If your science rate is 0%, you will never get another science, regardless of how many caravans you deliver.

If you are delivering lots of caravans, you will have sufficient money that you can choose to set your tax rate to 0%. Should you do this, it is important to know how much money you will need to cover your end of turn costs.

The result is that there is no problem with setting a luxury rate of 30% or even 40%.

Another point to consider is that the Cure for Cancer creates an extra happy citizen in every city. This can do wonders for creating WLT? Days. If you really value trade, this wonder is icing on the cake. Build it and watch your cities celebrate. If you choose to build this try to build it in one of your newest cities. That way on the turn you build this wonder most of your cities will reap its benefits. If you build it in an older city most of your cities will have to wait for the next turn. Actually this is a good strategy for any happiness wonder.

[Paul]

quote: Note: If your science rate is 0%, you will never get another science, regardless of how many caravans you deliver.

That's not entirely accurate. You will not discover a new advance if you don't produce any beakers, but if your caravans have already filled the beaker counter you can get your next advance by setting your science to zero and having just one scientist in one of your cities.

[jpk]

Paul, I suspect that you are correct about a 0% science rate but one scientist will allow the completion of a technology.

I haven't check this out but I am sure that you have.