How's this for creative drake?

[Eyes_Of_Night]

This is just a taste. And this is pretty old too so there's some things that need changing on it but I'm too lazy to change it. It works too, Cavebear has gotten a first hand demonstration of it.

Locating A Civ Using Demographics

This only works in 1 on 1 games. I'm not saying it doesn't work in larger games, but it's much harder to do and it's not really needed as much. Also this pertains more to duels on a small map. All resource values are assumed to be 2x. It's extremely difficult to do and you have to have a lot of knowledge of the values of resources and how the AI sets the map up, along with an active imagination to visualize how the map looks. Also I am assuming that the age of this map is 3 billion. On 5 billion or 4 billion the resources occur too sporadically to classify into zones. This can’t always be used, but a lot of times it can. Either way you can find out what’s in your opponent’s city view.

1. ZONES

First let us divide the map up into zones. Zone 1 is the artic region, 2 is the part between the artic region and the equator, 3 is the equator, then it goes 2 again and then 1. N1 is the northern artic zone, S1 is the southern artic zone just as N2 and S2 are north and south zones.

2. DESCRIPTION OF ZONE TERRAIN

Of course these descriptions are not set in stone, but can be used as basic guidelines for zone formation.

A. Zone 1

Very bottom region of map. Glacier, Tundra, plains, grassland and forest can be found here. Plains squares are usually sporadic and are fairly rare.

B. Zone 2

Most diverse terrain. Can have just about anything in it. Jungles, and swamps will occur here most, but will sometimes be in zone 3 too. Mountains, hills, grassland, with even the occasional desert square. Mostly grassland however. Usually has the best land on the map.

C. Zone 3

Mostly desert and plains. Forests will occur here but will be sporadic. Occasionally there will be some jungle and swamp in this region but it's usually in patches and not widespread. Mountains many times will occur in large ranges. Grassland will also be seen here, but not in large quantities.

3. RESOURCE ZONES

Most resources occur in these certain zones, but can however be found sometimes out of their normal zones. Water resources are not included. This table shows zones of the resources, and my rough estimates of how often they will occur in these zones. * indicates a zone where the resource will occur only in extremely rare circumstances.

Buffalo: 2-35% 3-65% 1*
Coal: Just about anywhere. Not used in tracking civ.
Desert Oil: 3-80% 2-20%
Arctic Oil: 1-100% 2*
Fruit: 3-30% 2-70%
Furs: 3-60% 2-40% (only very lower regions of Z2)
Game: Same as Furs.
Gems: 2-70% 3-30%
Gold: 3-55% 2-45%
Iron: Same as gold.
Ivory: 3-100% 2*
Oasis: 3-80% 2-20%
Peat: 2-70% 3-30%
Pheasant: ANYWHERE Not as common in 3,1&2 most likely.
Silk: Same as Pheasant.
Spice: 2-70% 3-30%
Wheat: 2-35% 3-65%
Wine: Just about anywhere. harder to use in tracking civ but can give idea and tell what's in view.
4. EXAMPLE SITUATIONS

There are many situations you can tell where a civ is using demographics. It's obviously not a pinpoint of where it is, but it will tell you the zone the player is in.

A. Lets say you start out on a grassland square, no resources around you except for a forest and a lake. It's the first turn of the game, you both have a city. Now lets say you put your resource on the forest and the demographics say you are first in MFG, 2nd in GNP, and 2nd in Food production (FP). Put your resource back on a grassland square. The new values are 2nd GNP, 2nd MFG, 2nd in FP. In this situation if it shows you are first in FP then it's most likely a whale in your opponents capital. If that's the case it's not of much use to you but it does tell you your opponent is near a water source. However, if you're second in FP still then you have to go down the list of possibilities. There aren't very many that can give this combination of high food and high production along with GNP. Of course there could be a double combination of resources where your opponent built on a resource and has another one in view, but that is more rare and far more complicated. We'll assume the simpler combinations for now. A forest is obviously in view. Silk won't give the food but pheasant will. Now in order to get the GNP your opponent has to be on a river. TO test this we put our resource on the lake. If you're now first in GNP then your opponent has a pheasant and a river in view. This doesn't give a clear distinction of what zone your opponent is in, however it does tell what to look for. If you're still second in GNP then there's two resources in play which is far more complicated and would take a lot of writing to explain how to figure out what exactly they're using. But I want to assert that it is definitely possible to figure out what they're using in most cases.

B. Lets take another situation. Same resources in your city as before. You put the resource on the forest just as before, but this time you're second in MFG still. However you're first in FP, second in GNP. It could be that you're tied for first in FP, so take all your resources off and put on an entertainer. Look at the demographics, if you're second for FP then the following could be true: You both have the same resources and are using a forest, a river could explain the higher GNP of the opponent. If you're 1st in FP then your opponent is almost definitely using a combination of iron/oil with a river. To make sure it's a river and not a double resource combination use the lake again. In this case it shows you as first in GNP showing your opponent is using a river. Now the probability that your opponent is using oil on the artic is very low so we'll rule out zone 1. That leaves zone 2 and 3. Now we know that mountains occur in the upper regions of 2 and all along 3 and that oil is primarily in 3. So our target is the equator. It could be very possible that your opponent is on a river with iron down towards the bottom of the map, but it's far more rare.

Obviously there is some room for error using this technique, but it gives you an idea of where your opponent could be and in some cases a very clear idea of where they are. In the examples I know it's a little confusing and I didn't go into all the combinations and possibilities. I basically gave the examples to give you an idea of what this does and how to do it. You can't always use this technique because sometimes there are just too many possibilities. Majority of the time though you can or at least get some sort of advantage from it. Also, there may be a few mistakes up there because it was very hard to explain how to do this and got a little confusing trying to explain all the possible combinations on paper. It takes a lot of experience and a lot of practice to master using this so if you can't get any results on the first few times don't give up on it.

[SlowwHand]

It's creative and extremely analytical.

It's in the strategy section still, isn't it?
Very well thought out, the only thing I could possibly hope to add is, it's what one does with the information of knowing where someone is, after the analysis has been done.

You know what I'm saying?

In duels, as you say, it would be very useful.

Most of the games I customize at all are 4000 year old worlds, for whatever reason.

It's really interesting .

[Rasputin]

gee no wonder it takes some people so long to do their move if they are merrily trying all that stuff out...

If I ever get back to playing duels again and choose to put my crown on the line i will have to check this out ....

[drake]

I never said anything about your intelligence eyes

I've read this before per your suggestion and I told you that I thought it was a very well thought out and logical thesis.

This theory itself is creative yes, but your playing style isn't. That is what I was saying. Your desire to win and humiliate your opponent is always your first priority. Enjoying the game of civilization takes a distant second. Your straight forward left brained approach at civ is your way of playing and that's fine. If thats what does it for you go for it.

I personally think that playing "kill others as fast as possible" type games are a lazy man's perversion of the game. I feel that Civilization is about growth and development more than it is about war and destruction. And I will freely throw my opinion at people who say otherwise. Does that mean it's right? No of course it doesnt. But I could truly care less if others agreed.

I'll continue to discount any validity in un-calculated and indiscrete genocide. You can keep discounting the validity of actually building up a civilization and *gasp* even being diplomatic and interacting with opponents.

Thats just the way it is. You don't need my validation to play your game eyes. You shouldn't care what I think.

[SunTzu]

I do believe i've seen all the info somewhere before.....www.civfanatics.com yes i do believe it was at www.civfanatics.com! Could it be at www.civfanatics.com? I believe so!

[Rasputin]

you should know Drake that sid made a big error when he put all that civ building stuff in the game, he meant it only as a quick search and destroy game, also the different levels Chieftan thru to Deity were never meant to be either, he only wanted a chieften level, but thought he had to make it easier for players so added the easier levels ...

[drake]

Damn raz, Sid sure went and screwed up the game didn't he? With all these people talking about diplomacy and that nonsense he must be cringing in pain. I think we all know that civilization (a high level of social, culture and political development) was intended to be a testosterone filled, egomaniac battle of indiscrete barbarians.

Deity level Raz? Boy sid screwed that one up too. He had the misconception that players had patience and liked being challenged. Silly sid!

[Rasputin]

he also had to compromise by adding the 1x1x option, he actually designed the game to be played in 4x4x but felt that was probalby too hard for people so again he was forced to add the easier option of playing 1x1x

And you should see him cringe when he hears people arent good enough to play the game as designed with just 2 civs no AIs. He thinks we ar eall weak when we play one of those simple MP games.

[SlowwHand]

Some dry humor, Ras.
After reading some of the chest thumping posts, I came close to taking your words as serious.

[SunTzu]

If that is true ras, Sid really sucks as a game designer and failed to create a good game in civ series, and if he corrects his mistakes in civ3 i won't be getting it, duels aren't fun, especially for civilization games, they're lame in civ series. I play my duels in AOK
I give Sid

[Rasputin]

If you beleive all that about syd Suntzu, I have some real estate to sell you in florida !!