Strategic Redeployment

[Theben]

I know this is probably too late to affect a game 85% done- but I want to get it out of my system.

Recent threads have called for the ability to move quickly across your empire for various reasons- railroads, airplanes, etc. In one I proposed the idea of Strategic Redeployment, and I'd like to build further on the idea (ignoring the fact that most of this was already mentioned in the List).

The basic idea is to allow for quick movement of units in a game where turns are years- but without ruining gameplay. The gist of the plan is to allow "unlimited" movement, but it uses all the unit's movement points for the turn. Benefits are:

Allows player to rapidly move forces around his/her empire;
Builds on already existing civ2 technology (removal of unit from enemy space, airlifts);
Should not unbalance game as moved unit cannot attack in same turn;
Helps "goto path" problems, as the route need only be traced. The unit is instantly transported there;
Helps kill "unlimited RR movement".

A potential problem is that it MIGHT unbalance game in favor of player over AI as the player will have a better grasp of how to use it.

How it works:
Land SR, w/o road connection- The unit is immediately placed in the nearest home city or colony, as per civ2 when enemy civ asks you to leave. Unlike civ2 all movement is consumed for the turn.

Land SR, w/ road or rr connection- The unit may be placed in any city, colony, or fortress of your civ or an allied civ as long as long as a viable supply path can be linked to both points A and B (no enemy ZOC's). In this case RR movement is assumed to not be unlimited but higher than road movement, and enemy rails cannot be used by another civ (may use ally's).

Sea SR- Any sea unit may use SR to the nearest available port. It may also use SR between two cities with the appropriate naval facilities (harbor &/or port facility in civ2). Perhaps a wonder like the Lighthouse could allow SR between all port cities (& colonies?). As air units (below), the SR path may not travel past enemy "ZOC's" (as Firaxis has mentioned ships traveling past coastal forts may be fired upon; also I include enemy navy "ZOC's") w/o risk of damage.

Air SR- All air units have unlimited range, but the air unit must be able to reach another airport or airbase within its normal flight range to continue its travel path. Thus a fighter with a move of 6 could travel 36 tiles away if there were 6 cities or airbases in between to act as refueling points. In the event that Firaxis still has air units flying for 2 turns the range of the unit is doubled for purposes of SR. Enemy fighters would have ZOC's around their base of operation, and although air units can still attempt to SR past them, they may be damaged, destroyed, and/or turned away in the attempt. AA may also attack units flying overhead.

Why all movement points lost? Aside from game balance, the supply lines and supply base, personnel, etc. must also be moved in their own fashion, which may take considerably longer than moving the unit itself. Ending the movement assumes that new supply routes have been successfully set up for the unit's new location.

Also note that the instant movement removes the civ2 event where enemy units were detected and landscape uncovered en route. Now while the basic landscape should be uncovered, things in the land probably shouldn't be, like irrigation, bases, units, etc, as the unit is not actively searching for them.

Comments?

[Ralf]

It seems to me that you take the very down-to-earth idea of physically moving around units/armies into some not-that-easy-to-understand universal unit-airlift idea - there each units possible air-lift range is - not fixed - but dependent on a myriad of road; RR; ZOC; terrain-type; borders; blockading units factors, and combinations of these - giving erratically various unit range-limits.

All I can say is: Its not feasible and its not fun. Besides; as you mention yourself: the game is already 85% complete. Its all too late.

However; A nice AI-civ only half-cheat shortcut would be:

If an AI-civ decides that its time to launch a fullscale invasion against a particular neighbors (perhaps the HP one), a "unit-gathering city" is automatically appointed (preferbly the one closest to the enemy soon-to-be-conquered Civ-border, of course - this has to be calculated).
Each army-attending AI combat-unit that from this point is produced, regardless where in the empire its produced; is automatically (and invisibly) "airlifted" to the appointed "unit-gathering AI-city". It doesnt just pop-up automatically and instantly though. Instead a rough schematic bird-path + road/RR formula calculates an added unit-journey waiting-time.

The benefit? AI-armies can more quickly & safely be assembled, without any stupid AI-unit pathfinding problems along the way.

[Theben]

It's one thing to critize, it's another to put words in my mouth.

Originally posted by Ralf
It seems to me that you take the very down-to-earth idea of physically moving around units/armies into some not-that-easy-to-understand universal unit-airlift idea - there each units possible air-lift range is - not fixed - but dependent on a myriad of road; RR; ZOC; terrain-type; borders; blockading units factors, and combinations of these - giving erratically various unit range-limits.

Items in bold were NOT mentioned by me- I don't know where you got them.
What's hard to understand? Either a movement path can be traced to the destination or it can't, which translates into either you can move said unit there or you can't. Movement is from point A to point B, unless an enemy ZOC blocks you, in which case you can either try moving elsewhere or give up. IMHO it would also ease micromanagement for the player.

AI-armies can more quickly & safely be assembled [using an "AI-only" cheat], without any stupid AI-unit pathfinding problems along the way.

In other words, the idea might help the AI too. Especially if the AI uses it to pull its unit back to stave off a human invasion.

[Grumbold]

While not directly linked to this concept, which I approve of in principle, I was thinking yesterday about how the age of exploration could be improved. I HATE the fact that, given suitably nearby continents, a trireme can chart the outline of every landmass in one epic journey lasting thousands of years and telepathically beam their findings back to base in the meantime.

Instead I would propose that all units should have "fuel" limits. They must return to a city/fort/port/airbase within a set number of turns or lose all mobility. Ships and armies would gradually get increased "fuel" limits as technology improves but by far the largest would belong to the explorer unit. You would have the choice then of exploring and returning to base or pushing further out past your borders but end up with stranded units that would have to be disbanded or rescued. That way you can explore far afield but there will be a high cost, very accurate considering the massive attrition rates on the exploratory missions.

[Rollo_CH]

If an AI-civ decides that its time to launch a fullscale invasion against a particular neighbors (perhaps the HP one), a "unit-gathering city" is automatically appointed (preferbly the one closest to the enemy soon-to-be-conquered Civ-border, of course - this has to be calculated).

This remind me of the good old Warlords game. It was possible to "vector" production from one city to another. You didnt have to move the unit all the way, it arrived after some turns. It got rid of the tedious transport and believe me...it was a whole lot of tedious movements in that game...still i played it until it infested my dreams!

[Ralf]

Originally posted by Theben
What's hard to understand? Either a movement path can be traced to the destination or it can't, which translates into either you can move said unit there or you can't. Movement is from point A to point B, unless an enemy ZOC blocks you, in which case you can either try moving elsewhere or give up. IMHO it would also ease micromanagement for the player.

What exactly is the micromanage-reducing difference between your unit teleport-idea (with journey waiting-time attached, if beyond the move/turn-limit, I presume) and the old trusty GoTo-command? I just dont get that.

If the destination-point is within the move/turn-limit, then you just move the unit manually, or use the GoTo-command. If the destination-point is beyond the move/turn-limit, you use the GoTo-command.
The only noticeable difference comparing with your unit-airlift idea seems to be that theres no journey-animation between point A and B. Its seems that you promote universal unit-popup teleportations here - at least if the destination-point currently is within that units maximal moves per turn-range.

If so, how does this decrease unit-move micromanaging in any worthwhile matter?

Also: all units MUST be visible at all times, for a lot of reasons. Otherwise; how can your fellow mp-player/ AI-player intervene and blockade your units between starting- and destination-points? Finally; these journey-moves/animations actually add lots of atmosphere and "alive" feelings to the game.

(The only combat-unit that should be allowed to point-and-click its destination-points (without any journey-moves/ animations) anywhere on the map, is nuclear ICBM's. Should be MAD-linked, by the way - but thats another story).

In other words, the idea might help the AI too. Especially if the AI uses it to pull its unit back to stave off a human invasion.

The "automatic unit-teleportations to AI gathering-city" idea should ONLY be used as a programming shortcut in order to more effectively achieve AI-army buildups prior fullscale invasions. At least the way I look at it.

The problems with manouvering AI-armies after any enemy-borders have been crossed, is hard enough, without having to burden the AI with domestic unit-gathering pathfinding logistics before such border-crossings has taken place, as well.

[Grumbold]

If the AI can teleport its units, it doesn't even have to try and make a sensible set of road/rail links between its cities. Civ was maddening enough when you occupied a huge city to find it had no improvements in it. Finding it has no need to connect to the rest of the empire is even worse. Don't shortcut the AI, improve it!!

The only shortcut I would approve of is a player and AI ability to build a unit in one city and deploy it in another upon construction. Once the unit is deployed it should follow the legal movement rules. The only advantage of teleports is that it would be one way to stop the ludicrous blocking of military units by non-military special forces like diplomats and spies. That is one problem with Civ games that has been long overdue for a fix.

[Ralf]

Originally posted by Grumbold
The only shortcut I would approve of is a player and AI ability to build a unit in one city and deploy it in another upon construction.

No, No! Why the human player? The HP should NOT be able to "deploy" produced units in any city of his liking - he must move them "manually" - as in Civ-2.

The AI-civs should basically follow the same rules as the human player, most of the time. But under certain limited & strictly specified circumstances (basically for AI-invasion preparations only) they can choose to deploy its units freely. But (important!) these city-fortified (or city-produced) units just dont teleport themselves instantly from a unit-producing AI-city, in one corner of the empire, to the other army-gathering AI-city, in the other corner of the empire. That would perhaps be too unfair AI-advantage over the human player.

Instead, an approximately calculated "journey-waiting time" must of course be attached to these "airlifted" AI-units, in order to simulate - well, the long army gathering-journeys through the empire.

The ONLY reason why promoting this AI-only shortcut, is to help these erratically moving AI-units (from all over the empire) to be able to meet up better, to an appointed "gathering-city" for army-forging invasion-preparations. We all know how easy the AI-units in Civ-2 and SMAC can "get lost" along the way, dont we.

Once the unit is deployed it should follow the legal movement rules.

Of course. I agree - otherwise this idea would counteract the legal road/railroad/zoc movement-rules in rather inflationary and gameplay-destructive matter.

[TechWins]

Theben, I'm not sure about you, but I like to have fun when playing a game. Here's another time where Firaxis is saying "Where do these idiots come up with these ideas".

[Theben]

Originally posted by Ralf
What exactly is the micromanage-reducing difference between your unit teleport-idea (with journey waiting-time attached, if beyond the move/turn-limit, I presume) and the old trusty GoTo-command? I just dont get that.

Sorry for the late response. Because I don't have to wait for the unit animations to complete, which I find annoying. I should mention that it isn't really reducing micromanagement, but reducing tedium and wasting less time (espec on slower machines).

Also: all units MUST be visible at all times, for a lot of reasons. Otherwise; how can your fellow mp-player/ AI-player intervene and blockade your units between starting- and destination-points? Finally; these journey-moves/animations actually add lots of atmosphere and "alive" feelings to the game.

No, they don't. Another thing that really peeves me is that units that are in transition are not searching for the enemy nor conducting cartography and shouldn't uncover the map to any great length and definitely shouldn't be able to spot enemy units w/o a good bit of luck (greater for land-based SR, but almost impossible for air). So if the SR path takes the unit thru uncovered terrain (which it probably shouldn't under any circumstances) the land should not be uncovered.
It also reduces the "move fast and bump into strong enemy unit and die" situations.
And the AI/mp player can intervene by setting his/her/its units to "guard" or "patrol" as opposed to "fortify". Firaxis mentioned earlier that civ3 will have something like this. Although I do agree that the animations sometimes add to the game, but then SR was not intended to fully replace normal movement and will not.

aside: I read your post about the 1 turn=1 year. While I did justify part of this idea on that, I also based it reasons meant to ease gameplay. Please do not assume this idea is for realism only.

Techwins-

You are obviously mistaken. I only have good ideas, although sometimes they aren't fleshed out completely. MY idea of fun doesn't involve manually moving units around each turn.

That said there are some things that I agree need changing with this model, mainly limiting factors and simplifying. So to start again:

SR moves around units, placing them from one point to another. A civ has only a certain number of SR points per turn. These are based on infrastructure, & on culture ratings (to oppose ICS).

Barracks generate 1 land SR.
Ports (whatever firaxis uses; facility or harbor) generate 1 sea SR.
Airports generate 1 air SR.

When the unit is moved, it uses 1 SR point per medium it moves thru. In addition, land units not on a road or RR that are moved to a point beyond the nearest city use an additional land SR point. Thus, a land unit that moved from one continent to another would use one land SR point and either one sea or air SR point.
Units using sea/air SR must have a path to a port or airport/airbase on both continents, or SR cannot be used.
Having to remove units from enemy borders also consumes SR points in the following turn.

If the SR path takes the unit past an enemy unit, or thru it, the enemy unit may attack the unit in transition. This results in the attacker getting 1 free shot at the SR unit (attacks as artillery for game purposes) and if SRed unit is damaged it must either abort to nearest friendly location or return to its origin (ideas welcome here).
SR still consumes all movement for the unit in the turn.

Alow the AI some sort of cheat which removes some of the qualifying factors from above.

[me_irate]

I believe that a main element of tactics is outflanking the oponent. What point would thier be of taking a unit the long way around to attack the enemy from behind (where his army is stationed along the border) if he could teleport the units across his civ to defend his cities before you can attack. I dont like railroads infinate movement and i like this idea even less. It takes the strategy out of the game.

[ember]

The idea I had for SR coupled the movemnt witha reserve system.
When units are produced they are put in your reserve pool, with are not placed on the map (The reservists are not able to effectivly defend until they are assembled). Active units can be put in the reserve pool as well. You give the comand, and they are defensless until the start of your next turn, at wich point they are added to the pool.

Reserve units cost less upkeep than active units.

When you deploy a unit, it takes a certain number of turns to deploy. On the 2nd last tuen the unit is placed, but has no defensive capability, this lasts unit the players turn again, then the unit gains it's full abilities, but counts as having no MP left.

Units can always deploy to their home city in one turn, even if it is blockaded. Any other well conected city takes two turns. Overseas and not as well conected cities take 3, and you cannot deploy to a fully blockaded city (except for it's home units). Partial blockade may add a turn or two

This asllows the time saving feature of not haing to manually move units accross the empire, or trust the ueually faulty GoTO command.
Adds some realism, in that air planes can farry across the oceans relativly easily, by loading the4m with feul, not ordiances, but it takes time for the support personell to arrive.

Also gives some realistic dissadvantages:
You cannot use this to automatically retreat, if the city or base is taken in the turn that the unit is deploying away, it offers no deffensive value, but would be destroyed in the capture (it is not orginised for defense, equimpent loaded on rail cars etc.) Also does not allow to be used as a instant reinforment, as the same conditions apply for teh full turn before it arrives)

[Inverse Icarus]

it would be a lot simpler if it took one turn per every 10 squares away from you cities, or some other ratio.

so if u withdrew from peaceful terriroty it would say "Your archer is 28 squares away from your closest city, Antium. It will take 3 turns to return to Antium." rounding up

[ember]

While it would be simpler to do it that way, I think it would make it much less usefull.

A city directly connected by RR or superhighways to another would have a quick redeployment regardless of the distance, while having to cross water adds a considerable amount of time to the treck. A partial blockade would be if land routes are blockaded, but sea and air is not. As long as one route is open you can deploy, but it takes longer. Note that a sea blockade of a land conected city would not count as blockaded at all for SR purposes.

[Inverse Icarus]

well if you wanted it to be real (which i never do ) you could make it so the person being violated could hold the people (USA/China Plane Folly), or even Conscript them into their army (English Impressment of American Sailors).

reality bites.

[Theben]

Originally posted by me_irate
I believe that a main element of tactics is outflanking the oponent. What point would thier be of taking a unit the long way around to attack the enemy from behind (where his army is stationed along the border) if he could teleport the units across his civ to defend his cities before you can attack. I dont like railroads infinate movement and i like this idea even less. It takes the strategy out of the game.

Because an active ZOC will effectively block SR.

ember, nice to see you again.

[ember]

It has been a while hasn't it?

I have lurked every now and then, but got sort of caught up in school...

Every now and then a topic I can comment on walkes along.

[Urban Ranger]

I found the idea of Strategic Movement to be agreeable. It does make sense for a country to be able to rapidly deploy forces in case of emergencies. Previously I have touched upon the subject of the various "modes" a unit can assume, and it goes well with SM. A unit must be placed in movement mode to be able to make use of SM. Movement mode provides certain advantages (such as moving fast) and disadvantages (e.g. cannot attack, suffers more damage if attacked).