View Poll Results: Most important Social Engineering area?
Research 9 18.37%
Economy 9 18.37%
Efficiency 10 20.41%
Support 3 6.12%
Morale 1 2.04%
Police 1 2.04%
Planet 2 4.08%
Probe 0 0%
Industry 4 8.16%
Growth 10 20.41%
Voters: 49. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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Old June 16, 2001, 08:41   #1
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Most important Social Engineering area
What's the most important area of social engineering for you? Do you prefer a hefty Research bonus, or is keeping on good terms with Planet more important? Are you one of those people who just goes all-out for all the Energy you can get, or do you want your population Growth to be as high as possible?
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Old June 16, 2001, 09:02   #2
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As a consistent builder of large, far-flung factions (I'm an ICS perfectionist, I just can't help myself--), efficiency is, by far, the most important attribute to me.
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Old June 16, 2001, 12:45   #3
Tai Mai Shu
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Excuse my ignorance, but what does ICS mean?
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Old June 16, 2001, 14:49   #4
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ICS = Infinite City Sprawl. That's packing your available territory with bases as close together as you can, normally 2 or 3 squares between each base.

As for the poll, gotta love efficiency for keeping your world spanning empire happy!
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Old June 16, 2001, 14:51   #5
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Infinite City Sprawl, a strategy of players continually expanding across every patch of land on the map, often with cities placed close together and with little infastructure.
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Old June 16, 2001, 14:58   #6
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Morale is most important to me, because I feel none of the other considerations are particularly important compared to controlling the planet with military power. I dont think it matters much how efficient you are, or how many techs you research or facilities you build, if you cant defend them.

Once you eliminate the military threats from the other factions, then I would say efficiency is second most important, since it strengthens everything else by maximizing your economy planetwide.

ICS stands for "Infinite City Sleaze", and involves building as many small bases as possible, very close together, until you cover as much area as you can with them. This gives you very many production centers, and the small population per base reduces or even eliminates drone riots. A very powerful strategy, although in SMAC I suppose it should be called "IBS", for infininte base sleaze. It is sometimes also known as "Borg Style".
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Old June 16, 2001, 20:07   #7
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not economy i can do yang and be rich w/ out running FM. not probe or growth can both be eliminated by SP's. police is helpful early on but nessesary for higher pop like after i build the vats. support i like but can do with out morale can be fixed w/ children's creche. industry is never really an issue but i guess it's nice. that leaves efficiency research planet. efficiency is important for more money(unless your yang). research is very important to stay ahead of everyone (the AI doesn't even bother to attack my AAA trance probability defenders with the added bonus of tachyon fields everywhere) and planet is a must to keep mother nature and worms and what-not out of your face.

now after ascentic virtues and police state, i don't need efficiency to keep riots away.

without good research you won't even get to eudaimonia or cybernetic

and without a good planet thing you'll need a fleet of formers and trance empaths to keep away the worms and fungus.

and now after that careful disection of all the things i'm going to go with research.


now wasn't that boring and unnessesarily long?
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Old June 16, 2001, 21:55   #8
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I am a bit confused here. If this inthe context of what SE choices I make in order to maximize a given SE factor its one thing if this a poll as to what would make the strongest custom faction it another. Seems to me I remeber a little mental exercixse done on these forums a ways back where a killer faction was turned in the a plus 2 growth and a free childrens creche, and free tech planetary networks to allow this faction to pop boom from the start.

Hey with that type of growth who needs economy or efficiecny you can specialize your way to all the labs or credits you'll ever need.
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Old June 17, 2001, 01:50   #9
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Efficiency just rules totally, I mean even if you don't have far flung empires, you still aren't going to have them all in a one square apart format. At a certain point I actually get more money/research when I use green than Free Market, so I have to say efficiency all the way.
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Old June 17, 2001, 01:59   #10
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I think it is support.

You can't outexpand nor conquest anyone if you don't get free minerais per base and if all your units eat up 1 mineral each.

I particularly like Yang's because he's prone to get +4 support easily, then I'm unstoppable! Mwahahauhauahua

On second place, I'd place industry.

(I edited to disable mail notification. Alas, why it is coming by default? :P)
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Old June 17, 2001, 02:17   #11
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I forgot to vote last time I was here. Anyway, I'm joining the chorus of "Efficiency" voices since it really is the most important aspect of your empire overall. Even with a baseline 0 Efficiency rating you may find half or more of your energy siphoned off as inefficiency at the frontiers of your empire. And if it's negative, forget it; you can kiss notions of money and research goodbye, not to mention drone control via psych allocation and drone control period. You can get by without a strong economy (as if Society Affect), or with poor industry, or even poor tech rates, but you gotta have efficiency.

Currently I'm playing as the Pirates and this is especially crucial, because of their inherient inefficiency penalty and propensity for lazy, sprawling empires over land and sea. It adds up to a lot of potential energy loss. With them I'm drawn almost exclusively to Demo/Green to tame this problem.

Soft spot in my heart for probe rating though. If Zak's next door or a Builder faction running Knowledge, embrace the good Lord (Fundy) for a few turns and probe your way to prosperity!
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Old June 17, 2001, 02:20   #12
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Well the support problem just disappears once you get clean reactors, and I'd say that INDUSTRY is way more important than SUPPORT, because INDUSTRY is essentially SUPPORT, but with an added bonus.
Take this example:
You are building something that cost 100 minerals.
Your city produces 11 minerals.
You have support such that you are losing one mineral/turn to support.
You have +1 INDUSTRY (-10% Costs)

So now, you have to build 90 minerals with 10 minerals/turn, or 9 turns.

W/O any INDUSTRY or SUPPORT problems, you would have to do 100 at 11 minerals/turn, so it would take you slightly longer to build stuff.

So having INDUSTRY is better than SUPPORT because you can also get less cost when you don't have support problems.
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Old June 17, 2001, 02:46   #13
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Yes, but if I use clean reactor units I can't combine especials =)

Sure Eff will get you broke if it falls negative, but pray tell: industry will do it too, and support, and police, and economy, and research, and planet... and note: a high police rating isn't a SE dream for most people, but it still hurts bad on negative.

Almost every trait is damn bad when on negative, but I think the question was referring "What SE choice you choose to raise by any means?"

Still going by my way of thinking (IMHO), children creche gives your base +2 efficiency and +2 growth - but WHAT building raises your production rate, or your support rate? Non-genejack factories will come much later in the game, you know... And clean reactors are a little more expensive and, as I said, doesn't let you combine abilities...

To illustrate my opinion (but surely is only MY opinion ), I feel great going pirate's with the -1 effic and all, but HATE morgans with that crappy -1 support...

Doesn't impress anyone, then, why I love playing the Hive with their +2 support early game (immunity to effic gives police state for free), and any "financial deficits" are solved with the planetary energy grid...

I guess money doesn't buy everything hehehe
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Old June 17, 2001, 05:27   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jokka das Trevas
I guess money doesn't buy everything hehehe
I find that it usually buys off Yang's armies just fine.
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Old June 17, 2001, 05:51   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Deimos
ICS = Infinite City Sprawl. That's packing your available territory with bases as close together as you can, normally 2 or 3 squares between each base.
Further explanation: ICS takes advantage of the fact that:

- 1 city of (for example) 8 pop-points produce 9 tile-outputs, while...
- 8 cities of 1 pop-point each produces 16 tile-outputs.

This is built-in flaw, but it can be counteracted effectively by adding smart anti-ICS measures, as they plan to do in Civ-3.

Ultimately, its also a very boring, unchallenging and empire-ugly way to play the game, by the way. ICS have a very inflationary impact on gameplay, and it have destroyed many MP-games. I have a hard time understanding why some people thinks its so fun to use this repetitious one-dimensional tactic. Beats me.

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Old June 17, 2001, 11:26   #16
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ICS is soundly defeated...
In MP games where this happens.. you simply get everyone else involved to agree to not fight you, and drop some PB's in it Oblitterate the infastructure. That can't be good

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Old June 17, 2001, 15:05   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by bondetamp


I find that it usually buys off Yang's armies just fine.
Not if they are stacked, as I usually do - and it's a law to keep probes on border bases since they take no support...

And Ralf, about ICS: Ok, ICS gives you the population edge... but how do one manages to build something (facilities or armies) with such a crappy production infrastructure.

I mean: in a hole, you're huge... But you can't combine the cities production (crawlers) unless you're building a prototype or wonder... How is it?
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Old June 17, 2001, 15:07   #18
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Good, a lively discussion
I always say that what matters to you most depends a lot on the style of game you play and your favourite faction, plus the factions around you. For example, if Miriam was nearby you wouldn't want to be caught running Wealth and Eudaimonia - too little Morale for when the bint attacks you!

However, being the techie I am, I think Research is quite important. Granted, it's no use without the Efficiency to support it, but usually Efficiency and Research go hand in hand - cf Knowledge and Cybernetic.
I'm surprised no-one's put Planet - does no-one else engage in mass Psi warfare? I do it all the time once I've discovered Centauri Psi - once I have the Dream Twister, I start churning out Psi Rovers or Tanks with Soporific Gas Pods, plus possibly Wave to remove any Trance abilities. A +4 Planet rating, plus the gas pods and the Elite rating (get the Cyborg Factiory & Command Nexus too of course) and nothing can stand in the way of your Empathi!
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Old June 17, 2001, 19:33   #19
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I enjoy the benefits of a decent efficency rating like any other SMACer, but not for the drone control or the retention of potentially lost energy. I tend to use it for adjusting my econ/psych/lab percentages without horrendous loss. I can be nice to blast up your econ in order to rush build those new facilities that just became available, then go the opposite direction and get a new tech in two or three turns. Repeat if neccessary.

All that aside, I still cast my vote for growth. I find that the ability to pop boom can't be out done. With a large enough base drones and lost energy are a thing of the past when you have enough specialists on the job.
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Old June 18, 2001, 11:24   #20
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If you watched the AI, you would say that Economy was the most important SE choice, followed by Morale. However, we all know that the POP BOOM is ultimately what wins.

Ask any player here this simple question: Could you beat an evenly matched human using only +2 of your favorite SE choice, while your opponent could POP BOOM and you could not?

What is your answer?
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Old June 18, 2001, 11:45   #21
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GROWTH!!!

try winning any game without it! not possible.
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Old June 18, 2001, 17:55   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jokka das Trevas
And Ralf, about ICS: Ok, ICS gives you the population edge... but how do one manages to build something (facilities or armies) with such a crappy production infrastructure.

I mean: in a hole, you're huge... But you can't combine the cities production (crawlers) unless you're building a prototype or wonder... How is it?
Hmm! Now you are taking me literally. I dont mean that 1-pop size cities should remain that way. That example was only used in order to explain the output-difference.

The point is that ICS-players pack their cities closely together, with heavily overlapped city-areas (lets say that each city have max 8-10 workable terrain-squares) and they establish huge quantities of these cities (at least 50 and often many more, is not unusual). These city-area squares can rather quickly be max-developed, by fewer settlers. This together that each city is easy to control (because of its comparibly small size), so investments in so many late-game happiness improvements/wonders is not necessarily needed. Camels can efficiently be used to help each other out building big wonders.

One thing I forgot to mention is that the easiness in how one can produce "endless" quantitys of these settlers, is a big part (perhaps the major part; hence - Infinite City Sprawl) of the ICS-problem.
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Old June 18, 2001, 20:01   #23
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Notes on ISC:

Early game, base-stacking has numerous benefits. First and most importantly, it enables you to get around those early game resource restrictions of 2n each as a maximum. This can be most clearly seen with any faction that builds a base+rec. tanks, and Morgan, who can get utterly obscene amounts of energy from base squares, regardless of available techs. In short, early game base squares rock!

Also, packing your bases close together reduces inefficiency due to distance from HQ.

If you pursue the ISC strategy with a vengeance in the early game, then by the time you run out of room to expand, you've got a tech position that enables you to rapidly put infrastructure in all those bases, turning them into sterling production centers across the board.

The end result then, is:
1) LOTS of bases = LOTS of production centers
2) A resonably efficient empire, given a mid-game relocation of HQ to a centralized base
3) Good infrastructure, allowing you to take advantage of the fact that psych sees its greatest impact in well-developed bases.

In all, if you're looking for a way to surge to a position of dominance, ISC is a hugely useful tool!

-=Vel=-
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Old June 18, 2001, 20:53   #24
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I voted for growth for the same reasons as Ogie, White Elephants and Ned. Pop booming is important if not critical to my strategy. Efficiency is useful, but I get around it the same way that White Elephants does, by using using specialists to propel my research and econ.

I also agree with Vel about ICS. I place my bases so that they each have from 8-10 workable tiles. These bases can get big, and have high production (one in four squares can be boreholed). I don't skimp on infrastructure, though some of the happiness stuff is unnecessary due to me having so many specialists. Another advantage to ICS spacing in SMAC is that with crawlers your base can be anywhere and still be a productive concern. And spacing bases close together allows for much faster placement in the early game, and a much more defensible empire throughout the game.

Just give me a lot of bases which are growing and I'm happy.
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Old June 18, 2001, 21:40   #25
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Vel and Sik, I question ICS, if the concept is meant to include a large number of bases closely spaced. True, such a structure is faster to build, and less inefficient, but ultimately there is a problem with bureaucracy drones that can not easily be dismissed.

First look at the below table. You see that regardless of difficulty level, you accumulate extra drones by an average of two per extra base. The bases that receive the extra drones are somewhat random, and could be in a base build a critical SP. That drone may cause a riot that cannot be fixed by adding a facility due to the fact that you are building an SP. If you use a worker, you may enough food production so that you lose population. This has happened to me.

As well, the bureaucracy drones can also prevent GA, which when combined with Wealth, is one of the best SE choices available. It allows fabulous economy and industry, and avoids the negative police of FM. Also, it can prevent Aki and Sven from pop booming. GA + Demo + Planned + Creche is the only way Aki and Sven can pop boom before Eudaimonia.

Here's the table counting bureaucracy drones on a standard map.

Code:
Transcend									
B's over 6	1	2	3	4	5	6			
Drones	1	4	6	8	10	12			
									
Thinker									
B's over 10	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9
Drones	1	2	4	7	9	10	11	13	16
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Old June 18, 2001, 22:14   #26
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Ned -- Hmm... your chart is quite a bit off and... and I don't know what else to say because I'm unsure as to how you got your numbers.

You only get one extra drone for every base past the limit mark. In other words, one base over six (the seventh base) you get one beuracracy drone, then a total of two extra drones (or +1 more drone) after the next base (the eigth base) is laid. The additional drones are not cummualtive. Meaning, you don't get one for the first base after six, and the two for the second base after six for a total of three. In this example you'd only have two total beuracracy drones.

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Old June 19, 2001, 07:24   #27
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Drone Problems:

Two flavors of conversation here, SP and MP. In SP, by the mid-game, no matter how many bases you have, drones should be essentially a non-issue. This is due to the fact that the AI can't seem to get it together well enough to launch a full-scale invasion, allowing you to make use of specialist terraforming techniques, creating specialists as you go and eliminating any chance for drones to crop up.

In MP games, it's a bit of a different story for two reasons. First and most important to consider is the fact that humans can and do launch cunning invasions, and snipe crawlers, and a whole host of other stuff that the AI never does.

In most cases, that will serve as it's own limiting factor for the number of bases you can build. I can't recall any MP games where I've had more than 15 or so bases running (but even then, they were pretty closely stacked together).

On bases with sudden drone problems that you're building an SP in:

Haven't had this happen in a while because when I'm building an SP at a base, I'm generally shuffling crawlers to the target base, so the SP gets built 1-2 turns after it is begun (these are non-upgraded crawlers btw). If it DID happen though, my initial response would likely be to shift crawlers around to boost nutrient production, then pull workers off to create psych specialists until I solved the drone problem that way. It'd only have to stay like that for a turn or two (until the completion of the SP....then I could put a more permanent solution in place).

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Old June 19, 2001, 07:51   #28
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Actually as a builder and peaceful expansionist, I would say that there are quite a few parameters which are important to me. Efficiency, for obvious reasons of keeping bases up and running at large distances. Industry to allow quick construction and speed up the rate of expansion, as well as to allow me to build up my bigger bases and nab SPs. Never underestimate growth, especially going for that pop boom. And research, to get those techs out faster. It is a balance. Sometimes one can compensate for the others, but it depends on situation and what kind of mood I am in
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Old June 19, 2001, 10:44   #29
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PH - there was me thinking you were a +2 economy junkie

The fact is that as has been outlined above, you can't specify a single area which is most important. For me, efficiency, economy and research are all key areas, not forgetting growth - but the fact is that every settings has its use. Pop booming, +2 economy, and +4 efficiency are all crucial at various points in the game, and you simply can't outline a single area more important than the rest of them.

On the subject of ICSing, it can be a devastatingly effective strategy - though it can get messy for a while in the mid-game. Gathering nutrients to grow your bases can be impractical before Hydroponic Labs, without some serious terraforming (which again, costs resources). Though the small number of squares to work can often land you in mineral problems early on, this is offset by the sheer number of production centres you have, as outlined above.

Of course, there is also the question of territorial advantage. Quite often in MP, you will need all the territory you can get, basically to expand your sphere of influence. You need to fight in MP, and a closely packed, but efficient empire will often lose out to a less efficient empire, but with more territory. This is due to a number of factors:

- PBs (this is often a factor in MP games, and in more than one circumstance I have dropped/been on the receiving end of a PB which can change the game)

- Warmongering generally. In many circumstances, air units have very limited range, without a base in the thick of the action. It is often simply not practical both to defend, and launch an assault from, a paked empire.

Of course, in MP, it often comes down to circumstance. Forget detailed analysis of the exact production figures, forget using 15 formers to construct massive energy parks - at the end of the day it comes down to tactical & (to a lesser extent) strategic decisions, based purely on circumstance. My personal opinion is that a packed spacing simply doesn't give you the flexiblity I would like in my empire.
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Old June 19, 2001, 11:13   #30
Ned
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WE, You may think the tables are inaccurate because the Datalinks tells you that you get only one drone per base. However these are measured bureacracy drones. They also reflect my actual experience from CIV on.

After our experience with the ED formula, I thought we all might be more skeptical about the complete accuracy of the Datalinks.

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