Whats the coolest civilization in Civ 3?

[LaRusso]

dank u well

[JMarks]

Originally posted by LaRusso


Saved our ass?
In the WW1 you intervened on the side of your debtors to prevent them defaulting on war loans.
In WW2 you came when Russians were already in Poland and probably shortened war for a month or so. Let's leave the strategic bombing out of this....

Of course, silly me, America had absolutly nothing to do with the conclusion of Either World War and could have easily stayed out of it had we kept our heads about it. How I wish that were true, Thomas Jefferson told us to stay out of European polotics, and look where we are now. 'Peace' keeping missions, and garisons where we have no right to be. Can't you keep your own peace? (sorry, that last portion is off topic)

Now, look at your location. Sioux Falls. How come? Let's suppose that a tribe (nation, civ, whatever) of Siouxes lived there, and hey - here comes a cream of European crop, armed to the teeth, zenith of the Western Civilization. 100 years before Stalin and Hitler, you had slavery and massacred Native Americans en masse.

Ooh, below the belt. Do you think I agree with that stuff? That was stupid and uncivilized, but hey, mankind is stupid and uncivilized. No one is in the exception, its just harder to see when they don't have power. Power doesn't corrupt, it reveals corruption. Central Plains of Europe? I'm sure you know plenty of artrocities that happend thousands of years before Hitler and Stalin. See previous statement.

Don't bring Darwin into this, as I understand, half of America has to listen to creationist theories in the school so that the Believers are not offended.
Let's face it, you're Europeans squared, our best and worst characteristics simply maxed out.

Darwin has much to do with it. Now Europeans and Americans had a scientific reason to subjugate the world. They were the 'superior' race, the most highly evolved. No longer did they have to use lies from blasphamus preachers who didn't give a rip what the bible actually said. Evolution, the modern religion where you can pick your god, man or nature, your choice.

You understand incorrectly. There has been one school district in Nebraska that let 'creationism' to be taught alongside evolution, and that was contraversial. Still is. Nebraska isn't half the nation by the way. Shows that European knowledge of what goes on in America is probably as bad as Americans knowledge as to what goes on in Europe. Hey, didn't you guys have a lot of protests when 'W' came over? I heard you guys thought he was a moron, stupid, etc. Don't listen to our news persons or late night talkshow hosts, they hate him with a vengance.

Oh, and I don't believe creation and evolution should be taught side-by-side, no, evolution should be taken out. Both start with biases, both are biased. I can see this turning into a full scale Evolution vrs Creation debate right here. Lets just say, I opened up my computer and I didn't see its builder anywhere in there. No one made it! It must have evolved from a lower form of appliance, mabey a calculator, and so on untill the primordial toaster.

Ioanes

[LaRusso]

Very nice
So when it breaks down you call for a priest?

Anyway,

What i wrote was a bunch of common perceptions of America, plains of Central Europe or not. To say that America represents a pinnace of Western democratic civilization is really over the top. It is an economic powerhouse, oligarchic plutocracy with a figurehead presidential system and an incredibly sophisticated financial market that keeps it on top of the world economic system.

It does not save asses for the simple reason that democracies do that fairly rarely , usually waving a purse (example; UK during 18-19 century, Netherlands for some time before that).

I do not think that it will loose its no. 1 place any time soon but I am sure that there never was a world master more disinterested in the world affairs and with a population so prosperous and so self-centered. I know we all need each other ( we need your money, you need Rome and Paris to take pictures in) but I really do have a feeling that, sadly, Earth has exacly the masters it deserves.

Well, hope there is a good MP in Civ3 - I will show you what kind of masters Earth actually needs

[KrazyHorse]

J Marks, by the time WWI was over, the US's contribution to Allied strength came up to somewhat less than ten percent of the total. Then, after the war finished, it forced its allies to pay their war debts in full, and tried to let their foes off the hook completely (not that those foes were completely responsible for the war). In WWII, the biggest contribution of the Americans was in the Pacific. First the British, with their stubborness causing the Axis to constantly be threatened from the west and from the south, and next the Russians with their enormous reserves of manpower and resources (and the willingness to spend both gaining victory) were what gained the victory in Europe. At the height of war production, the Axis was building a thousand tanks every month. The Russians were building two thousand. By 1944, the Axis had already begun to collapse, and it wasn't because of American bombing or the sideshow invasion of Italy. The strength of an entire generation drove deep into the USSR and broke itself uselessly on the rocks of Leningrad and Stalingrad.

There's a reason W's hated so much...

[Sientifix]

I think i'll first choose France (guess why ) and Greece because all European civilisations come from there. But I will certainly try all civilizations because they are interesting in a cultural and historic point of view.

About the action of the Americans in the WWII in Europe, russians did near 90% of the job against Germany on the ground, but Americans and English did a huge work on seas, in the sky and with embargos. However, I really prefer american's GI's than russian red army's soldiers...just see how URSS countries are now compared to us.

I'm sure you know plenty of artrocities that happend thousands of years before Hitler and Stalin.

Not at the same degree as Hitler, but yes, there had lots of atrocities, as everywhere in the world. But this is the past, and I'm quite sure that Europeans or Americans can not do this again.

By the way, why did Firaxis choose the pitiful Panther as special unit for Germany? It was one of the worst tanks of WWII (except the hopeless Sherman and Cromwell)! For the record, one russian JS-II destroyed 1.3 Panther at Korsun, and one Renault B-1 destroyed 4 panther III! I think there is a big mistake here : the germans did not win with their poor technology, but with their very efficient tactics and their well-trained crews (veterans?).

[Bereta_Eder]

On a side note, according to Plato, power does have the force to corrupt even virtous men. Actually power constitues a test for a man's virtue. And the longer he/she stays in power the more strong the negative inflitrating forces of power to his/her character become and the propability of corruption increases.


Sientifix, (J'etais vraiment enchante par Paris quand je l'ai visitee )
The Panzers error is nothing! Have you seen the portrait of Alexander the Great? He looks totally constipated!

BTW, I think french will have «musketeers» as their special unit and the leader will (definitely) be Joan d'Arc.

New World Dictionary

Civilization: 1. A civilizing or becoming civilized. 2. The condition of being civilized; social organization of a high order. 3. The total culture of a people, nation, period, etc. 4. The countries and peoples considered to have reached a high stage of social and cultural development. 5. Intellectual and cultural refinement. 6. The comforts of civilized life.

After reading the above, I now believe the United State is a Civilization.

Saved our ass?
In the WW1 you intervened on the side of your debtors to prevent them defaulting on war loans.

And here all of this time, I thought we (US) went to war because of the sinking of the British Liner Lusitania killing 128 American. However it was in realty the intercepted of a German message to Mexico in January 1917. The message, known as the Zimmerman note, indicated the Germany had approached Mexico for an alliance in case of war with United States. As payment, Germany promised to help Mexico recover some land it had ceded to the United States after the Mexican War.
Military casualties in WW I

J Marks, by the time WWI was over, the US's contribution to Allied strength came up to somewhat less than ten percent of the total

The Allies Total Casualties Kia
Belgium 126,154 45,550
British Empire 2,384,860 942,135
France Empire 4,968,000 1,368,000
Greece 38,310 23,098
Italy 2,197,000 680,000
Japan 13,245 1,344
Montenegro 50,000 3,000
Portugal 22,929 8,145
Romania 405,545 300,000
Russian 9,150,000 1,700,000
Serbia 331,106 45,000
United States 320,518 116,516. War was declared on May 6, 1917 and on Nov 11, 1918 Germany signed the armistice. In 18 months we lost the number above. I think it was a little more than a showing up.

The Central powers
Austria/Hungary 4,820,000 1,200,000
Bulgaria 256,250 87,495
Germany 6,251,000 1,935,000
Ottoman Empire 2,290,000 725,000

In WW2 you came when Russians were already in Poland and probably shortened war for a month or so. Let's leave the strategic bombing out of this....

The above statement is so untrue; I cannot believe you wrote it. If you do not like the United States that OK, but to out and out lie about the United States is another thing. The United States declare War on Japan December 8, 1941 and on Germany, December 11, 1941. The US started to sent solder and equipment to England in either Jan. or Feb. 1942.
German forces entered Stalingrad Sept. 16, 1942.
The U.S. landed in North Africa on Nov. 7, 1942.
Field Marshal Friedrich Von Paulus surrendered to Russians on Jan. 31, 1943.
May 12, 1943 Organized Axis resistance in Africa ended.
July 10, 1943 Allied (U.S.) invades Sicily.
Sept. 3, 1943 Allied (U.S.) invades Italy. Italy was not a sideshow.
Nov. 6, 1943 Russian recaptured Kiev.
Jan. 27, 1944 Russian broke the siege of Leningrad.
June 6, 1944 Allied (U.S.) invades France. General George S. Patton 3rd Army does more damage to Germans forces than any other army in northern Europe. BTW the above statement is fact, go look it up if you like.
Jan. 11, 1945 Russian entered Warsaw, Poland. I guess the U.S. was fighting a little longer than a few of you think they were. April 22, 1945 Russian enters Berlin.
April 25, 1945 Russian and US met at Torgau.
May 2, 1945 German troops in Italy surrendered. There was no Russian troops in Italy.
May 7, 1945 Germany Surrendered.

[QUOTE]In WWII, the biggest contribution of the Americans was in the Pacific.[/QUOTE

That is funny because President Roosevelt made Germany his first piroties over the Pacific. Just read any book on the Pacific War and you will find that all of the Generals were yelling for more troops/planes/ships.

First the British, with their stubborness causing the Axis to constantly be threatened from the west and from the south, and next the Russians with their enormous reserves of manpower and resources (and the willingness to spend both gaining victory) were what gained the victory in Europe.

I guess the Allies (US) sat this war out. The great Soviet Union saved the day for all of Europe.

At the height of war production, the Axis was building a thousand tanks every month. The Russians were building two thousand. By 1944, the Axis had already begun to collapse, and it wasn't because of American bombing or the sideshow invasion of Italy. The strength of an entire generation drove deep into the USSR and broke itself uselessly on the rocks of Leningrad and Stalingrad.

Well I guess the 49,234 M-4 Sherman’s that were built could have stay in the US.
More Sherman’s were built than any other tank. Look it up, it is fact.
Military Casualties
Total Casualties KIA
Allies
Belgium ? 11,240
China 3,086,442 1,324,518
France 640,813 200,240
India 107,078 49,466
Poland 327,000 107,000
Russian ? 7,500,000
United Kingdom 610,904 271,320
United States 1,215,954 405,399

The Axis. I will list only Germany and Japan

Germany 8,156,000 2,916,000
Japan 2,391,736 2,144,507

Again if you do not like the US who care's. Just don't lie about us.

[Dr Strangelove]

Hey, I'm going to ask a question on this forum that I've asked before but never received an answer to. Unlike the US, whose military replacement doctrine was to replace men lost in battle on a one-for-one basis, German doctrine was to allow whole units to become depleted, then send them to the rear for refitting. If a unit was too badly decimated the unit was either written off or completely reconstituted.

My question is this: Of all the great WWII battles, which resulted in the greatest number of German divisions being destroyed or put out of action for more than 6 months?

WWI- By November of 1918 the US had more than one million men serving in France. Remember that by this time Russia was out, and the main theaters were in France, Italy and the Balkans. I don't believe that by the end of 1918 there were as many as 10 million men serving in these three theaters.

[JMarks]

Originally posted by joseph1944

Again if you do not like the US who care's. Just don't lie about us.

Go Joseph! Thanks for helping out. Spreading truth via fact.

Ioanes

[Bereta_Eder]

HEY where are the greek casualties in WW2????????????

We didn't defeat the italians so that you leave us out of your list joseph

[Bereta_Eder]

Also don't leave the serbians out in ww2. whatever you think of them, they fought bravely with all of us in WW2.

I say this because at the celebration of the defeat of the Axis the greek flag was next to the british flag in the centre of the celebrations but the serbian flag was nowhere to be seen.

This is an injustice to the serbians.

Originally posted by paiktis22
Also don't leave the Serbian out in WW2. whatever you think of them, they fought bravely with all of us in WW2.

I say this because at the celebration of the defeat of the Axis the Greek flag was next to the British flag in the center of the celebrations but the Serbian flag was nowhere to be seen.

This is an injustice to the Serbian.

I did not leave anyone out. I was using World Book Encyclopedia and they only listed the Country that I named. There is one that I did not list because it said "Other". I would assume Greece and Serbian is cover under "Other".
The numbers for Other is 304,310 total casualties, and 145,159 Killed in action. (yes I fully understand what (ass)(u)(me) means).
The Axis country that I did not list were Austria, Bulgaria, Finland, Hungary, Italy, and Romania. (I know Finland did not fight the US, England, France etc. They only fought the Russian).
I do not have a problem with the Serbian people, however Mr. Milosevic and his boys either need to spend the rest of their days in prison, or hanged by the neck until dead. I do not support mass killing by anyone unless there is a war and you are killing enemy soldier. As long as he was fighting the KLA no problem, but when he started to kill the people then that became a problem. I to understand with all of the Albanian living in Kosovo and Macedonia that Serbia and Macedonia are not going to give up any land so that the Albanian can make a bigger Albania. They need to understand that also. That would be the same if all of the Mexican that live in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California stood up one day and said all this land is going back to Mexico. The US Gov. would not think this would OK either. But we would not kill all Mexican either.

[Bereta_Eder]

Ok. I'm too tired to look it up now but I believe that there is some fault with «others». Greek Civil and military casualties were around 500.000 in WW2 but I might be wrong so I say this with caution.

I don't understand what (ass)(u)(me) means (remember english in not my mother language)

I agree with you on the situation in the Balkans on most points. It just wasn't right to leave the serbs out of the celebration of the Allies. They shed their blood too.

[Bereta_Eder]

And about the Balkans and what the situation is right now and how we got there, we could talk for hours but this is not the right forum!

Originally posted by paiktis22

I don't understand what (ass)(u)(me) means (remember english in not my mother language)

It is an American thing. The word "Assume" means that I may have made a "Ass" out of you and Myself for using the word. It is like I will assume that you did your job correcly. Or assume you will come and visit me tomorrow. A word not base on fact. Since the book did not say Greece, I will assume that Greece is cover anyway.

[Rollo_CH]

American ignorance is widely known in Europe and mostly a "laughing stock". As are European ignorance towards the "New World" too. I think its pointless to discuss who's right and who's not, there's always, at least two sides of the story. New facts are being put forward all the time about history. For instance: the Soviets were always regarded as amongst the "good guy's" in our books, until the fall of communism...

Btw, Sid Meier is american right?

paiktis22,
There's alot of sides in the Balkans too...what is true to Greeks and Serbs aren't necessarily so for Bugarians and Makedonians...i'm not taking sides, but just a reflection to the ever present "Balkan powder-magazine"

[LaRusso]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
My question is this: Of all the great WWII battles, which resulted in the greatest number of German divisions being destroyed or put out of action for more than 6 months?

I believe it is Operation Bagration, destruction of Army Group Center, Summer 1944 in Belorussia.

As for the above historical lectures given to us by our US colleagues, I am really not surprised. During my studies in the UK, I've met an incredible number of Americans who genuinely believed that it is them who really won the war. It is 50 years of Hollywood which portrayed their allies as stiff upper lip schoolboys and drunken ruffians (guess who is who) and their enemies as total imbeciles who either ran around like buttmonkeys or spoke English with an idiotic accent and tended to get killed like flies by Telly Savalas and Clint Eastwood.

(I really have a bit more of a work to do today so I have to shorten this).

I understand your self-congratulating tone when it comes to operations in Iraq and over Serbia. You managed to avoid land battles and resorted to prolonged air campaign. THe other side did not have S-300 so you pretty much did what you wanted. Well, congratulations on that, you won.

As for KLA and Albanians, I will laugh my face off when they start kidnapping your soldiers. You walked into Beirut like that and ended up with 200+ marines blown to bits. Obviously you did not learn the lesson NOT to mess with barbarians. Their threshold of pain is much higher. (actually, I wonder if it is Milosevic out of jail who now masterminds the clashes in Macedonia? ummmm, lemme see, might be someone else....who, i wonder?)

Which brings me to the previous point. German and Russian tolerance to losses in the WW2 was so high that your losses look insignificant. Do not get me wrong, you definitely were smarter and, thanks in part to your favourable geographical position, you are who you are today also because of the WW2. But to put your fight against German reservists who were underage or over 50 (mostly) to bloodbaths on the Eastern Front is a joke. Paris, for Christ's sake, was surrendered by phone, when it could suck in 2 million people in street fights. Meanwhile, every Polish village was razed to the ground and the whole of Western USSR was scorched earth.

Whenever Americans dared to disembark on a Pacific island, they took a beating. WW2 was fought in 2 distinct theatres and the US were clearly not the masters in the main, continental one. Yes, sea and sky were yours....

Finally, note on your entry into WW1 - try distinguishing causes from excuses. Nation does not go to war over a sunken boat, it does so only when its vital interestse.g. repayment of loans) are threatened.

[Sientifix]

Patton 3rd Army does more damage to Germans forces than any other army in northern Europe.

In Europe, Americans did not the hardest battles. When Russians were 1vs1.8 in Stalingrad and 1vs2 at Kursk, Americans were 1vs12 at El-Alamein, 1vs25 in Normandie, and 1vs7 in the Ardennes. That's why they did a lot of damage to German's army... Russians did not have this luck.

[Martinus]

Oh, and I don't believe creation and evolution should be taught side-by-side, no, evolution should be taken out. Both start with biases, both are biased. I can see this turning into a full scale Evolution vrs Creation debate right here. Lets just say, I opened up my computer and I didn't see its builder anywhere in there. No one made it! It must have evolved from a lower form of appliance, mabey a calculator, and so on untill the primordial toaster.

Without going into the Evolution vs Creation debate here (because, what's the point), frankly I can not conceive how the hell a person who can (I assume) turn on his PC and type, can think anything like this. It is really amazing.

[Sientifix]

Originally posted by paiktis22
Sientifix, (J'etais vraiment enchante par Paris quand je l'ai visitee )

Oui, c'est vraiment une belle ville. J'y suis depuis 1 an environ.
J'aime bien Athènes aussi (un peu trop chaud peut-être). Et votre cuisine est bonne ( c'est un français qui le dit )!

The Panzers error is nothing! Have you seen the portrait of Alexander the Great? He looks totally constipated!

Yes, you're right! And me who thought he died of a more noble illness!

BTW, I think french will have «musketeers» as their special unit and the leader will (definitely) be Joan d'Arc.

I think Napoleon is better in this part. He is the one who saved the France when it was attacked by all the European countries (he didn't need to declare a single war, others did it for him ). And he made our civil code, created lycee (college i think), polytechnic school and some other things like that. ...And he killed half of the male population of France in Russia. Hmmm... well, in fact Jeanne d'Arc is more photogenic I believe

[JMarks]

Originally posted by LaRusso
Very nice
So when it breaks down you call for a priest?

No, they're called computer gurus. Same thing with cars, there are those mystic car mechanics.

Without going into the Evolution vs Creation debate here (because, what's the point), frankly I can not conceive how the hell a person who can (I assume) turn on his PC and type, can think anything like this. It is really amazing.

Martinus, that was exactly my point. Congragulation.

I understand your self-congratulating tone when it comes to operations in Iraq and over Serbia. You managed to avoid land battles and resorted to prolonged air campaign. THe other side did not have S-300 so you pretty much did what you wanted. Well, congratulations on that, you won.

Larusso, you understand inadequatly. I don't know what most other people think, but we had no right to be in Serbia, mabey not even Iraq. Don't know about the later, that was before my time. If you Europeans want to keep peace among yourselves fine, but please, stop assuming we'll jump in every time.

Oh, and not to say we won WW2 by ourselves, no, I don't think that was the intent of either myself of Joseph (there I go, assuming also!). Rather, we were of great value, who knows what would have happened if we didn't join, or for that matter supply Britain. Mabey Russia still would have steamrolled Germany (everyone forgets to never get involved in a land war in Europe), mabey not, its all speculation.

Ioanes

[Kurgan]

Originally posted by JMarks




If you Europeans want to keep peace among yourselves fine, but please, stop assuming we'll jump in every time.


Ioanes

I think that the USA never involves itself in any conflict unless there is something they will gain, I think the same of any other country. So I (as european) expect to to see the USA "jumping" a lot all over the world. If W has been convinced to keep the troops in Bosnia, I am sure that it will not be because he has been moved by the suffering over there, but because there is some people who convinced him that in the long term it will be beneficial for the USA to be all around (for business). I do not think that this attitude of the USA Presidents is good or bad, it is their job, and they only have to answer the people that elected them, would they be the big business with the big bucks (as in the rest of the world, but in a lesser degree) or the people who voted.

[KrazyHorse]

Hey Joe. Add up the numbers. For WWI, even discounting the Russians as sore losers, you can see that the total American KIA comes to just about 2% of the total. The total American contribution in casualties comes to 3%. In WWII, over 80% of German casualties were on the Eastern Front. Also, to answer your question, Strangelove, IIRC the battle of Stalingrad cost the Germans over a million men. I'm not sure if this was the biggest one, but the Soviets managed to capture 17 generals (again, IIRC). Also, I think you're right; the Americans had about 15-20% of the Allies' armed forces by the end of the war. My point is that they showed up too late to make that much of a difference.

Originally posted by JMarks
LaRusso, you understand inadequately. I don't know what most other people think, but we had no right to be in Serbia, maybe not even Iraq. Don't know about the later, that was before my time. If you Europeans want to keep peace among yourselves fine, but please, stop assuming we'll jump in every time.

I will admit that sometimes I do want the US to be the World policeman.

Oh, and not to say we won WW2 by ourselves, no, I don't think that was the intent of either myself of Joseph (there I go, assuming also!). Rather, we were of great value, who knows what would have happened if we didn't join, or for that matter supply Britain. Maybe Russia still would have steamroller Germany (everyone forgets to never get involved in a land war in Europe), maybe not, its all speculation.

You are correct in assuming.
Actually we the US starting fighting the Japanese and Germans long before declaring war. The Flying Tigers in China were American. The Eagle Squadron in England was American. Plus some/lots? of American when North and join the Canadian AF to fight in Europe. We sent tons and tons of supplies to both Russia and England before we started to fight. Just ask any German Sub member from WW II and he will tell you how many American Ships they sunk before we declared war. For that matter just ask any of your Grand Fathers to see if we did anything or not. We gave the British 50 destroyer and gave the Russian a whole bunch of our P-39 and P-63 for ground attack. There are a few picture of the Red Star on our P-39/63. Normally the Soviet did not show those picture because Stalin did not want his people to know that we the US was helping him.
Some of the people who post here somehow think the Soviet Union was a great Country, maybe you should talk to some of the people who lived under Communist Gov. Ask a person of East Germany or East Berlin how it was. Or ask someone from Hungary, Czech and Slovak Rep. how it was in 1956 and 1968.
We just had this girl at our school who came from China two years ago. When she is asked today if she would go back to China, she said "NO WAY". We must be doing something right.

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Hey Joe. Add up the numbers. For WWI, even discounting the Russians as sore losers, you can see that the total American KIA comes to just about 2% of the total. The total American contribution in casualties comes to 3%. In WWII, over 80% of German casualties were on the Eastern Front.

Not my fault Hitler started a war on the eastern front.

General George S. Patton made a speech one day and said "this idea that dieding for your country is a great thing is a bunch of crap. You make the other dumb son-of-b---- died for his country, shot him in his belly" the speech went on, I would have to reread his book to state all of it. So one should make the other guy died and not him self.

[Sientifix]

Originally posted by joseph1944
We just had this girl at our school who came from China two years ago. When she is asked today if she would go back to China, she said "NO WAY". We must be doing something right.

China is something horrible now: authoritaric governement and a hard neo-liberal(?) economic : the worst of both system!

[KrazyHorse]

Joseph, you're mixing up a few ideas here. Firstly, you're assuming that people who think the USSR contributed most of the Allied effort also think that the system of government in the USSR was laudable. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Soviet government under Stalin was a reign of terror. The NKVD shot anyone it thought was a defeatist, and the man with the moustache demanded unquestioning support. This does not discount the enormous effort sustained by the Soviet people and Army. You're also confusing the actual prosecution of a war and the production of arms for a war. The Americans produced a slightly larger amount of war materials than the Soviets did, but the Soviets did much more of the actual fighting. If the USSR had not bled the Axis white on the Eastern front, there would have been no way for the western powers to invade Europe in 1943 (or 1944) without sustaining many more casualties than they were willing to do. Note that Soviet war manufacturing was accomplished even while much of the country lay under the Nazis, while American production occurred in a land untouched by the destruction. Also note that war with the USSR was actually declared after war with the US, so that 80% was accomplished in a shorter period than the 10% or so inflicted by the US. Finally, you're assuming that the government in China today has something to do with the government of the USSR. The Chinese take on communism is a bizarre combination of an extremely harsh authoritarian regime and "liberalization" on the economic front which more resembles fascism than any sane form of collectivism. This being said, I am a small-"d" democrat and a small-"s" socialist, but I do my best to remain objective when discussing facts, as you are so obviously strained to do.

[Twig]

Originally posted by joseph1944

I said this a long time ago, America is a country and not a Civs. Because All of us have ancestry somewhere else. Think about this for a moment, if your ancestry is North Africa or most of Europe, not all, but most of Europe you are part Roman. So if all of us part Roman got together today (2001), we might still be one of the larges Civs in the World. Maybe number 3 right behind the Chinese, and Indian of India.

PMJI, but I respectfully submit that America IS INDEED a civilization. This opinion comes from an American who genetically is German (I love beer!), Belgium (see German), English (I have an attitude.), Scotch (I own a kilt.), Irish (I am an alcoholic.), Crotian (As a veteran, I have been in battle [but won].), Indian (Well, nothing snappy to put here - I hate currey...), and Chippawa (again, refer to firewater-related comments...)

The bottom line is that, like most other American mutts, my ethic background has congealed into a sum that is something totally different than the collection of my ethnic parts. The American melting pot is DEFINATELY unique from the sociology of its sources.

...and if you don't believe me, WHY DOES THE REST OF THE WORLD WANT TO COPY TO US?! I refer to the overseas demand for blue jeans, countries who were in a state of anarchy or dictatorship or communism now becoming democracies, Korea basing a major chunk of their economy on basketball shoes, rock & roll pervading the airwaves everywhere, American soap operas being broadcast worldwide - and so on...

Imitation is indeed the sincerest form of flattery. Considering that civilizations everywhere are now imitating the States, I reckon that clearly qualifies us as a civilization...

Regards, Twig

Originally posted by joseph1944
New World Dictionary

Civilization: 1. A civilizing or becoming civilized. 2. The condition of being civilized; social organization of a high order. 3. The total culture of a people, nation, period, etc. 4. The countries and peoples considered to have reached a high stage of social and cultural development. 5. Intellectual and cultural refinement. 6. The comforts of civilized life.

After reading the above, I now believe the United State is a Civilization.

I don't know if you saw this post after the first one.

On the war, all I'm saying is that if the Allied did not invade North Africa, or Italy, or Northern Europe, Hitler could have sent several more division to Russia and maybe would have beaten the Russian. Remember this, the Russian thought the Germans were going to win in Stalingrad for a time. The Russian started to move material and people across the River to set new defenses.
And Old Men and little boys thing. Hitler kept, one or two of his crack "SS Panzer Group" in northern Europe to fight the Allied after they landed. The Western Allies did not see old men and boys until after the battle of the Bulge. And the troops in Italy were not old men and boys. They were some of Germany best divisions. That is why it took until 1945 to win in Italy.
Another big help for all of the Allied was the British and American 24 hours per day bombing campaigns. That did slow down Germany production of war material. Without the bombing Germany would have product a lot more tanks, plane, and other war material. Lucking for all of the Allied, Hitler slow down the Production of the Me-262. A few were shot down by the American P-51, but only a few. The bombing did stop the German V-2 New York missile/rocket. With that ICBM in place, they could have hit Leningrad, Moscow, New York, Washington, Stalingrad, etc.
I was going to quit but just remember. The Russian ran into some of your German boys at Warsaw. And those boys kept the Russian from crossing the River for several weeks. I saw this on the History Channel. In fact both the Russian and Western Allies finally had to just shoot those boys because they would not surrender even if only one boy remained.

Originally posted by JMarks
Ooh, below the belt. Do you think I agree with that stuff? That was stupid and uncivilized, but hey, mankind is stupid and uncivilized. No one is in the exception, its just harder to see when they don't have power. Power doesn't corrupt, it reveals corruption. Central Plains of Europe? I'm sure you know plenty of artrocities that happend thousands of years before Hitler and Stalin. See previous statement.Ioanes

J; go back and read his remarks. He said it was the European that came to American and kill or relocated the Indian of the East Coast area. Later it was the 3rd, 4th, and 5th generation of American that moved west and then kill or relocated the Plains, and West Coast Indians.
Before 1776, America was still mostly British Colony.