Civ II Stinks

[Gatekeeper]

Everyone:

This topic post is a direct follow-up to my previous topic, "I Am Praying For a More Intelligent AI."

The subject line says it all.

And the AI Mongols are to blame. They take one-dimensional to the extreme. Even IRL, the bastards could negotiate. But, NNNNOOO. Not on Civ II. All they're there is big, dumb Neandertals.

"Give me money!"

"Give me The Wheel!"

"Your puny civilization is unworthy to make peace with us!"

Well, 'scuse me, Mr. One Dimensional AI Mongol bastard. You see, I have the "Kill Civilization" option at my command.

And yours just died. And with it, my regards for Civ II programming.

A very PO'd ...

CYBERAmazon

[DaveV]

This is not meant to rub salt in your wounds, but *any* AI civ will be very cooperative if they're afraid enough. If you have lots of troops on their continent, you'll see messages more like (my favorite):

"Have mercy on our humble and peaceloving civilization. We will give you all of our gold (6) and knowledge if you let us live in peace."

[Mao]

hehehe, Mongols getting on your nerves? That's why you can pick your AI opponents

[Scouse Gits]

CA: Don't be too hard on the game. Look around the World today - many of the conflicts are the result of one-dimensional attitudes.

Whether by accident or design Civ 2 does reflect much of real life. The one and only OCC game I played (It was Tom's wide World with the road along the South Pole) ended in me being described as "Whatever The Cruel" In the game I never touched anyone! However, in my more usual conquest game on large maps; I kill, sabotage city walls, destroy temples, laundries and massage parlours - and at the end of it all I am called "Whatever the Magnificent" You have to admit there is a ring of truth there!

I'm with you all the way in wanting a better game with CIV 3.
____________
SG (2)

[Ming]

Nice title to your thread

Yeah, the AI sucks... One can only hope for a better one in CivIII!

------------------
Ming
CivII & Off-Topic Forum Moderator
Ming@Apolyton.net

[Civ-wrecked]

I thought the AI civs were very benign . They always give a lot of warning signs before attacking and they always attack the same city and so it's trivial to set up a well-defended city as a target for their attacks.

[tonic]

Except that in OCC it's going to mean an expensive detour from your preparations for racing to AC. In OCC12 I got one turn of warning before the English nuked my city although with hindsight the subtler signs were not altogether absent.

One dimensional is indeed an apt description. In the group of civs you have made peace with, there is bound to be one on a pre-determined downward spiral in attitude, where cutting your losses by accepting war (particularly if it is not your next door neighbour) is preferable to insatiable appeasement.
[This message has been edited by tonic (edited July 14, 2000).]

Heh, Looks like I'm just a AI in MP then, cause I just go rampaging everywhere and it usually works.

[Gatekeeper]

DaveV:

Don't worry about the salt — I usually rub some in just for the sake of it . I've seen that begging message more than once, but usually after I've built my empire and military up to the point where boredom sets in **L**. Also, the AI never shows that message to me until it has a single city left. Sheesh. Fine time for self-preservation to kick in.

It's partly my fault for being a perfectionist and not seeking war until the later stages of the game. Oh well. I probably should've been satisified with just wiping out the Mongols, but it left such a gaping physical hole in that particular game ... they were a massive, sprawling empire!

CYBERAmazon

***

Mao:

What's really annoying is the fact that I picked the Mongols. I tried to counteract that by choosing the Chinese, too, but the former wiped out the latter by 1 A.D. Then I, as the Babylonians, was the only nation left in the natural expansion path of the Mongols (playing on the "Northern Hemisphere" map downloaded from Apolyton).

CYBERAmazon

***

Scouse Gits:

True, very true. Maybe that's why I get so PO'd when the AI tears down what I build. Maybe it's too close to human nature **sigh**.

CYBERAmazon

***

Ming:

Oops . Guess the Christian nightmare of an afterlife doesn't cut the batter as a topic post headline **L**.

CYBERAmazon

***

Civ-wrecked:

I guess I don't bother much with setting up decoy and "military buster" cities when playing the AI. In fact, I rarely build fortresses, either, in a standard game. As much as I like to keep my strategies realistic, perhaps having few or no forts is unrealistic.

CYBERAmazon

***

Fallen Angel Lord:

Hmm ... I see the Borg Queen has assimilated you to the AI's methods .

CYBERAmazon

[Gatekeeper]

jpk:

I won't walk away from Civ II ... too addicted for that course of action . However, I shall take advantage of some time away from the game to rant and rave to the masses **L**.

The AI seems to prize The Great Wall ... I'm usually building the Colossus in my capital city while the AI is building TGW at the same time. I'd rather have the former, because of trade and science benefits ... perhaps, however, that priority should change a bit, especially at the higher levels of gameplay.

Thanks for the map suggestions.

CYBERAmazon

[Carolus Rex]

I'm with you CYBERAmazon on the need for improved AI.

But, to go from there to flush Civ down the toilet is going too far [stern look]!

One word, multiplayer!

And to spice up SP, try one of the many challenges.

This game is still very much ALIVE and KICKING!

Carolus

[Gatekeeper]

Carolus Rex:

**hangs head** I'm guilty! Guilty as sin! I beseech you for your forgiveness . On a bit more serious note, multi-player sounds fascinating. But until I get a cable or ADSL connection to the Web, I won't be able to satisfy that curiosity, IMHO. A 56k connection isn't always stable enough, at least where I'm from.

CYBERAmazon

[finbar]

quote: Originally posted by CYBERAmazon on 07-15-2000 09:08 PM Carolus Rex: A 56k connection isn't always stable enough, at least where I'm from.

Give it a try. I'd reckon it's what the vast majority of people use to play.



------------------
finbar
Mono Rules!
#33984591

[jpk]

CYBERAmazon:

If you really hate fighting neighbors, play on a 10,000 square map. Most of the time you will have either zero or one neighbor on your original continent. That allows you to develop the way you want.

For what it is worth I usually play on a cylindrical world 250 squares in circumference and 40 squares in height. I play with large land masses in a variety of sizes. Since I like rivers I play on a wet world. Before you give up on Civilization try this type of world.

While the AI civilizations are no different on this type of map, you can pretty much ignore them until you have time to build decent defenses.

Also consider building the Great Wall. It will really help your cities resist attacks and will help in keeping other civilizations at peace. Eventually they will all hate you, that is their nature. But the Great Wall postpones that day of reckoning.

[Ming]

Yeah... many people play at that "slow" speed. Just make sure the host is has the great connection, no problem

Ming is right about somethings and you should try and find a host with cable just like me

[Kitana]

To tell you the truth CYBERAmazon, I hate the Mongols. Always have, always will. The Vikings come a close second though. They are a pain if they aren't dealt with swiftly.

------------------
Kitana
Shogun of the Japanese

[Matthew]

Vikings and Zulus both tend to be a real pain in the Butt. When playing on a real world map they tend to either wipe out the Romansand Egyptians, who are generally very good trading partners, or at least severely limit their developement.

[Gatekeeper]

Finbar, Ming, Hydey:

Well, I've got some vacation coming up in a week ... so perhaps I'll take some time to look at MP possibilities. Of course, I'm writing this after being disconnected two times in 15 minutes by my idiotic ISP.

ME: "Why am I always disconnected?"

THEM: "Phone line static!"

COMPUTER EXPERT (my friend): Uhm, 'fraid not, folks. You have a corrupt modem or two amongst your 600 modems."

THEM: "AGH! No! Never! We're always right!"

ME: "Eat my grits."

THEM: "What are grits?"

FRIEND: "Southern food!"

Hang up.

CYBERAmazon

[Kitana]

I wouldn't know about the Zulus, I 98% of the time play the Japanese.

------------------
Kitana
Shogun of the Japanese

[jpk]

CYBERAmazon:

Normally you won't be able to build every early wonder. But you can usually build three of them. Most people like the Colossus and the Hanging Gardens. Say you also want to build the Great Wall.

Try to plant your first two cities prior to 3500 BC. Once a city is planted, build a warrior, a settler, a phlanx, and a second warrior. Next start on a Wonder. Settlers from the first two cities should build a road or two, perhaps irrigate a buffalo and then found a new city. Repeat the procedure for the third and fourth cities. If it won't take too long, use the settlers from the third and fourth cities to build roads connecting the third and fourth cities with the first and second cities, respectively. (I am assuming a settler from the first city founds the third city and a settler from the second city founds the fourth city.) Start wonders in the third and fourth cities after they have built a settler and three military units. If a city has coal or wind use a settler from the third or fourth city to mine it. Try to get trade fairly early so that you can complete wonders with caravans. No message of mine would be complete without a positive comment on caravans.

If your capital or second city is really nice, you may be able to build both the Colossus and the Hanging Gardens in that city. It helps to found the city closer to 3700 BC rather than 3500 BC. Also the city needs to have good food and good shield production. three or four whales is ideal. A combination of wheat and coal will work well. Note I'm just talking about building the two wonders in the same city. Coal is good for this but not for producing trade arrows.

To make sure you get the technologies you need for whatever wonders you want to build try not to tip goodie huts prior to having the necessary technologies. Also get to Monarchy as fast as possible. In your effort to get Monarchy, if a City happens to have a special like spices, put a worker on that square even if it delays production of units. If necessary make incremental purchases of shields. If you purchase four or fewer shields at a time the cost is two coins per shield. If you puchase five or six shields the cost is one coin more than two coins per shield. Many small purchases are a better use of money than a few large purchases. Of course, sometimes you have no choice.

Note cities can only produce so many shields. Money spent on shields for units costs about two coins per shield but money spent on Wonder shields costs four coins per shield. If you think you will have to spend money on shields to get the wonders you want try to spend that money on rapid production of military units rather than wonders.

In case you are still reading, this is the end of my rambling.

[Gatekeeper]

jpk:

Thanks for the tips. I won't promise implementing all of them — as I've sort of figured out an early strategy of my own (isolation with 3 vet defenders in each city backed up by two vet offensive divisions in each city) — but I'll try the expansion tips for sure. I rarely have more than 10 to 12 of my own cities in SP.

CYBERAmazon