change o' pace

[Velociryx]

Since version 1 of the strat guide came out—man that was a long time ago!--many people have questioned me privately (e-mail) wanting more specifics about how and why SMAC is a relatively weak “War Game.”

Recently I was browsing through theunderdogs.org and happened upon a note about a freeware Gary Grigsby game. This should make war gaming enthusiasts drool, because in wargaming circles, the name Gary Grigsby packs every bit as much impact as the name Sid Meier does here. He’s quite simply the best at what he does.

So, if you’re curious to see the differences between a fine empire building game (SMAC/AC) and a fine war game, I invite you to follow this link. It’s a big download, but if you’re even a little bit interested in war games, you’ll not be disappointed.

And, if there is even a faint desire by the folk making civ3 to add more realistic war elements to what is already an outstanding game, they could do a LOT worse than taking a peek inside this guy’s playbook.

http://www.matrixgames.com/Games/SP-WorldAtWar/

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

....and also, quite possibly something of interest to SMAC/AC fans.

This quote was taken from the underdogs site. I mention it here because the programmer in question has worked with Mr. Meier in the past, and though I've not yet downloaded the game-in-progress, I would suspect the economic model to bear at least some similarities to current S. Meier designs.

Anyway, it stands to be interesting, and I intend to start fiddling with it a bit this evening. If anybody else would be interested, I'm sure they'd be happy to have other volunteers!

-=Vel=-

Quote from the Underdogs' Page:
Welcome to the Stalin's Dilemma download page! Many oldtime wargamers will surely remember Ed Bever,designer of many classic wargames such as Command Series (with Sid Meier) for MicroProse and No Greater Glory for SSI. After a long hiatus from commercial PC gaming, Mr. Bever has resurfaced with Stalin's Dilemma, a game about Soviet economic development between 1928-42. He intends to make the round revision of the game (which was designed for classroom use) and offer it free to the gaming community. Here is what he wrote us:

"After a few twists and turns in my career, I'm now teaching European history at SUNY College at Old Westbury, and a couple years ago I got a modest grant from the NSF to create a computer simulation of Soviet economic development 1928-42. The basic goal of the game is to prepare the USSR to fend off the Nazis at less human cost than Nazi conquest is likely to involve. The sim is geared to classroom / homework use (ie, it's a pretty small and unadorned program/game compared to commercial computer strategy games (which is why I find them difficult to integrate into courses, much as I'd like to (which inspired me to make it))), but it was suggested to me that it might be of interest to people who get games from your site. Furthermore, part of my grant requirements are to distribute the game as widely as possible, and, finally, I'm about to do a round of revision to the game, and would like feedback from anyone interested in giving their reactions and/or suggestions. Therefore, I was wondering if you'd like to offer it as a free download from your site as a promotion and/or service to the gaming community."

Of course, we can't refuse our favorite designer-- especially when this is about his brand new project that we would love to play We therefore invite anyone who's a fan of Mr. Bever's games, or have an interest in history/economic development, to download the current version of Stalin's Dilemma, play it, and post comments about it in this discussion thread in our forum. Mr. Bever will join in the discussion and incorporate players' comments into the final release of the game, which will certainly be reviewed and inducted into the site proper.

So, please download the game [91KB] and the overview (text format, 5KB) and join the discussion. It's a small game, but very interesting Help spread the word-- and see you in the forum!
****End of Quote****
The information came from the following link, which also contains a link to the game download and the forums, for comments. I hope to see some of you guys there!

http://www.theunderdogs.org/stalin.php

[Verrucosus]

[Exit Velociryx. Flourish]

I noticed that starting with this line is almost forum protocol for someone to post after the great Velociryx. Anyway, he referred to Version 1 of his strategy guide. Like most people here I am a huge fan of the guide, never able to decide between just reading on and trying out the suggestion I just read about. I have read Versions 2 and 3 of the guide in the top post and on the Spartan Chronicles site. It was interesting to see how the guide has evolved from one version to the next. Does anyone know whether Version 1 is still posted somewhere?

[Velociryx]

::blushes several shades of red::

Nawwww Verrucosus…..you give me more credit than I’m due, good sir! (but I’m glad to hear that you enjoy reading the guide so much!)

‘bout the strat guide’s initial version…..that’s a good question. I’m not sure if it exists anywhere anymore. IIRC, the initial collection of essays was archived in the old Apolyton forum (pre-upgrade), but I’m not sure if it was anyplace else.

BTW, I attempted to download the game that the link above points to, and keep getting an out of memory error….that’s funny, given the game’s small size and the fact that my computer has sufficient memory to run the thing about a hundred times before even coming close to running out of memory. Anybody else having trouble with that?

And, anybody know ‘bout if/where a copy of the eldest of the strat guides might be found?

-=Vel=-

[rwprice]

Vel, the Steel Panthers World at War game you mentioned is one that I also stumbled upon. I've downloaded it, and it looks great, but I haven't yet taken on the challenge of learning it. My question is: how many people who like games like SMAC and Civ2 also like wargames like SPWaW? I'm intrigued by Gary Grigsby's games, but they look like they're tremendously intricate and detailed. Obviously, warfare in the Civ games is way too simplistic, but is it too hard in Grigsby's games? Have you played these games, and what did you think? Is it possible to play them without attempting to become an expert on WWII mechanized warfare? I'm curious to know what you think.

[Velociryx]

Hello rwprice! Good questions ‘bout the complexity of Grigsby’s games. My advice is…don’t be daunted by it. It’s true that the combat engine and unit level of detail is VASTLY higher in this game, if you stand that level of complexity shoulder to shoulder with the SMAC economic and resource management model, you’ll find a pretty similar learning curve, I think.

I’ve played many of Grigsby’s older titles, and I can tell you that as time has marched on, more and more of the technical stuff is handled by the code itself, behind the scenes (which is a very good thing from a playability standpoint!).

I’ve never played this particular title before, but I downloaded it last night, and I’m expecting to see combat impacted by such things as: Line of Site, Fuel and supply, facing, unit fatigue, morale, the presence, absence, and/or distance from a command center, an extensive point based movement system with at least six, possibly as many as a dozen variable costs for different terrain types, and all sorts of goodies that have become more or less standard fare in classic war games (not to mention armor and ammo types, with varying effectiveness for certain weapons vs. certain armor categories….similar to what they were gonna implement in SMAC).

As far as the learning curve goes, I’d figure out how to move and fight with your units and not worry over-much about the particulars of what works best against what…..just start moving stuff around and mixing it up with the AI to see what happens. That way, you don’t get bogged down reading the 11 Meg (!?) manual, so you don’t have to feel like a walking encyclopedia of WWII knowledge.

-=Vel=-

[LodeRunner]

I was wondering whether anyone here has played the Close Combat series of war games? They are not quite as detailed in some areas as what Vel's post describes, but it seems other areas are more detailed. This series of games in small unit action, so you do not get the overall picture of the war. About the most number of soldiers you can command is around 90 to 100 for any one battle.

The games have exquisitely detailed overhead maps of actual towns and battlefield locations of WWII. Each map is broken down into small squares of, I think about 10 pixels each. Each one of these squares has a terrain attribute choosen from a list of over 200 different types of terrain. The terrain type has many different attributes associated with it, such as cover, protection (from different angles), and LOS. There are hundreds of units to choose from and the level of detail is tremendous. The game calculates each soldiers moral, experience, health, proximity to leaders, LOS, and so on. You have to use teamwork and strategy to conquer you opponent. It is a real-time type game, but it is very slow, which allows you to make adjustments easily. It's not one of those real-time games where the fastest clicker wins.

If anyone has played both the games that Vel's post referred to and the Close Combat series, could you compare the two? Being spoiled by the eye and ear candy of the CC series, would I still enjoy the other war games out there? Thanks.

[Velociryx]

GRRRR….man, talk about a tough row to hoe! I remember a thread not many moons ago extolling the virtues of a planned economy….sheesh….you guys gotta try this beta “game”….it’s a real eye-opener. I either wind up starving my peasants to dramatically ramp up my industry, or I spare the populace but don’t gain any significant ground. It’s tough, but I’m loving it.

Some things I’ve noticed so far though, that might prove helpful for anyone who’s also interested in testing it:

1) Tractors have the same basic effect as “goods” where peasants are concerned, increasing total food outputs by one, where goods decrease consumption by one. That’s useful, cos you can use your factories to crank out a liberal number of tractors and (theoretically) boost food production in the long term.

2) Energy – I usually have it coming out of my ears….everything needs it, but I’ve never run short, and I’ve only spent minimal resources increasing my total outputs, so I think I’m on the right track there.

3) Industry – that’s a little trickier….balancing increasing industry with increasing metal production (without which, your factories can’t do squat).

4) Any unallocated population points I end up with invariably get shoved into military (which have been, in my test games so far, terribly underfed and thus, not really effective).

My best result so far:
Industry: 28, Stability, 1.0, and Military 36

That’s a far cry from the 48, 1.0, 66 that the win condition requires, but I’m enjoying the experiment!

Sorry I can’t help you, LodeRunner….I’ve not played Close Combat, but I hear it’s a fantastic game!

-=Vel=-

[Sikander]

I've played close combat, and I think it's a good game. It's kind of like a very simplified 'Squad Leader' where the simplification is for the player rather than an oversimplification of the concepts.

Gary Grigsby's games are great. I especially liked Pacific War and War in Russia. They aren't all that tough to learn, but having a wargame background is a big help. These strategic and operational level games all have simultaneous turns, which is more realistic and a hell of a lot of fun. Thus you decide which aircraft and tanks to produce in your factories, where to put you newly built weapons and newly recruited troops, which units to assign to which formations, which commanders to assign to which formations etc. Then you give orders to your troops and hit the end of turn and pray. A lot more like being in charge than actually fighting the battles yourself. And simpler while still being detailed.

It sounds like Civ III is going to do a little better with the warfare aspects of the game, adding leaders and a ZOC system based upon relative mobility and firepower. Good. Grigsby's games show how much can be done with a good design to preserve detail and realism while simultaneously retaining playability.

[Velociryx]

This is probably OLLLLD news to everybody here, but I only just discovered it, and since this thread started off pretty much off-topic, I figured I may as well help keep it that way....

The name of the game is Seven Kingdoms II. Published by Enlight/UBI and developed by Trevor Chan of Capitalism fame.

It's available at...you guessed it, underdogs.org (see above for a working link to that site), and I have to say that after having spent two solid days immersed in the 7k2 world, I'm totally hooked!

It's RTS, but don't let that frighten you away, if you're a diehard TBS gamer, cos this game has incredible depth for an RTS....and having said that, do NOT expect "just another C&C/Warcraft clone" because the tried and true "rush" game is remarkably less effective in 7k2--I know...I tried, and wound up with my entire kingdom in rebellion and about a third of my mercenary force switching sides in the heat of battle....not a pretty site!

Good resource management system--requiring you to set caravan routes between marketplaces to generate coin, a variety of different unit types with a good mix of special skills, a decent number of "techs" to research, allowing for truly branching strategic approaches to winning the game, but perhaps the most fascinating aspect is the highly developed Espionage feature, which enable you to spy, counterspy, steal tech, sneak a peek at sensitive kingdom-specific information, bribe units and/or generals, assassinate particularly nasty opposing generals....a whole lot of options here!

In fact, one of the chief complaints about the game was that it contained too much depth for an RTS, but I have not found that to be the case....especially with the occassional use of the "pause" feature, to take a moment to plan and rest the mouse hand!

Two days into it, and I'm a believer....so if you're looking for something else to glue your eyeballs to, I'd recommend this one highly....

-=Vel=-

[rwprice]

Vel, I checked out the site, and this game looks pretty good! I'm going to try to check it out. Thanks for the tip.

[Velociryx]

No problem, rwprice! I've been to a few of the gaming forums for SK2, and as expected, they've mostly dried up.....not many new posts, so I added a couple, hoping to breathe some new life into them....truly an outstanding game!

My early favorite tribes are:

Egyptians - They begin with a ranged attack, and their chariots are decently fast enough to make hit and run raids....but the biggest selling point is the special ability their Seat of Power gives....Isis can add 20 population points to any town you target for a mere 100 Magic Points....meaning a fully charged "SoP" will give you 60 extra peasants....Yow!

Carthagenians - Not so much for the troops--which are okay--but their "Greater Being" Baal is just heinous! Who needs a big army when you can simply earthquake your opponents into oblivion!?

Mongols - The cavalry just rocks! Fastest unit in the game, and they've got a good special power from their SoP besides....makes conquering neutral towns a LOT easier.

Celtic - Druids just ROCK! Slow, but insanely strong!

Other Solid Choices:
Viking - Fun to lead into battle, but watch out....they're all attack and no defense!

Romans, Greeks & Normans - All solid, well rounded armies....the Roman Greater Being is a little weak, and the Greek one is hard to use effectively, but they're all decent.


Weak choices (IMO):
Chinese - good at hand to hand, but as their soldiers get better trained, they get this totally USELESS ranged attack (minimal damage) which they ALWAYS use! It'd rock otherwise.....::sigh::

Japanese - A marginally useful special power (amounting to radar), but a really weak special unit (ninja). I was kinna disappointed in these guys.

*The monsters are fun to play too, but almost too easy like playing the aliens in SMAX....

Ahhhh, but perhaps the best selling point of all....you certainly can't beat the price!

-=Vel=-

[rwprice]

Vel,
Did you have any trouble getting the game installed? I'm getting an error message that says that the file named dinput.dll is missing. Now that I think about it, I'll bet that's a directx file. I'm installing first on a test machine with only the base Win95 files, so I bet I need to install a newer version of directx. I'm assuming that the Seven Kingdoms installation probably did not include the directx install. I'll let you know.

[Velociryx]

::nodding:: Quite right....when I installed it on my machine, it did not load any of the directx stuff, but it is listed in their system requirements.

Good luck, and good hunting!

-=Vel=-

[rwprice]

Yep, I needed to install DirectX. I took a quick look at the game. It looks pretty good! As if I didn't have enough to keep me busy...If this game is truly a cross between Age of Empires and Civilization, this will be awesome! Thanks for the tip.

By the way, did you know that you can also download an advanced manual for the game, as well as a strategy guide, both in pdf format?

[Velociryx]

Hmmm....nope....I didn't know about the advanced guide, but I *did* find Amarok's strat guide, which is HUGELY helpful! He did a superb job of putting it together, and I've gotten many good ideas from it! I'm also neck deep in my "first" game (details of which are below). I say first in parenthesis, because I started a number of games on easier difficulty levels to test different ideas, but this is the first one I'm playing through with a difficulty level of over 100%. Perhaps it'll shed some light on what you can expect when you fire it up and give it a go....all in all, it's been highly entertaining!

My first real game (ie – at or above 100% difficulty)
Overall difficulty 103%
Me vs. 6 human kingdoms
My starting tribe – Egyptian

Don’t really know how this would stack up against another human player, but it’s fast becoming my “standard opener” with the Egyptians.

First build, Seat of Power, followed by a Tower of Science (researching Chariots as a first course). My initial population was sufficient to fill up both the tower and the Seat of Power with several workers left over, so I then built a mine/factory/market, assigning half of my remaining workers to the factory, and the other half to the mine. No food production, but I had plenty at game start, so no biggie.

Sent four Egyptian soldiers out along the major compass points to scout, look for goodies lying on the ground, and find the other kingdoms.

Found everybody within five months time, and got trade deals with all of them. Eventually snagged two allies as well and two other “friendly” treaties.

When my seat of power bar was about half full, I called Isis out, and managed to get two “pops” from her, which gave me a big boost in general population. In response, I built another Egyptian town nearby for runoff, and a second Tower of Science to speed research up. My general plan is to focus on growing my empire (mostly with help from Isis, but targeting a few nearby neutrals as well).

Got lucky and found a Mongol civilian in one of my three inns! Bought him, made a new fort and a new Mongol town, which I “grew” with a little help from Isis…..researchers are now working on giving me Mongol cavalry, and in the meantime, my Chariot research has finished, so I’m building that structure.

Troops are on their way back home by this time, having snagged a few nice artifacts and gained much intelligence about the surrounding lands. Also during this time, I found and purchased three Horns of Heimdall from the tavern…..got three cheap creatures that way, and they’re all quite strong! (better than any of my other troops are!). Duly added these to a fort on the fringe of my empire.

Built another new fort to try and coax a roman town to my side. Hired a decent roman general from the tavern to put in said fort. Their resistance is high, but we’re doing some builds to create jobs for them. Six months after the fort was built, the Romans decide to join us, and we turn our research efforts immediately to Roman Cavalry. I’d like to build my army entirely out of specials, but I don’t want to be last place militarily in the meantime, so my solution is to mass-hire from my inns until I’m fourth in military. Not bad, and I’ve got some good fighters now, which I disperse to my three forts….they’re all getting close to full, and my starting town is hovering around 85 population. I’m ranked first in every category but military….whooohoooo!

Things were going good for my Mostly-Egyptian-with-a-smattering-of-Mongol/Roman-thrown-in-for-grins Empire for about three game years. I ascended to first place in every category, built up a good defense force for my empire (which, during this time, grew to include a total of five towns….three Egyptian, one Roman, and one Mongol), and everybody was on friendly terms with me, and I had two allies to boot.

Then….disaster.

For simplicity’s sake (and because I cannot remember their names), I’ll reference my AI competition by color. Purple and Yellow are my long-standing allies.

Tan demands 2,000 Gold in tribute. I refuse. The punk is in last place militarily….c’mon! I’m supposed to bow to THAT?

In response, he terminates our friendly treaty.

Blue (second place overall) demands that I surrender my kingdom entirely to him. I refuse that too! It’s been a good game so far and I’m having fun playing, thankyouverymuch!

Then suddenly, Blue, Tan, AND Green (who had been a quite docile trading partner this whole time), all declare war on me! Suddenly there are endless streams of tan, blue, and green dots on the overview map, all converging on my proud red banners.

So….I did what anybody in that position would do….I ducked everybody inside the closest forts and sent a general distress call to my allies, requesting immediate military aid. And guess what they did for me?

NOTHING! A big, fat goose egg.

So here I am, watching these endless ranks of Greeks, Carthagenians, and other shielded troops (which dramatically reduces the effectiveness of my archery attacks), wondering how the heck I was gonna survive it all.

On the plus side, I had four forts, all filled to the gills with troops, three special unit structures, again, all filled to maximum capacity, and a smallish task force (perhaps half a dozen units strong) sitting on the fringes of the empire. Decent army I thought.

I also had almost ten grand in the bank, and as the bad guys were approaching, I quickly demolished my savings down to nothing, and emptied out my three Inns. I wasn’t particular about it, either. If they had a weapon, they were hired. I didn’t even look at their stats until they were all sitting in my territory.

Hastily, I grouped them, promoted the best of the lot to generals, and heaped honors on everybody to raise morale.

The hired guns plus the fledgling strike force I was putting together numbered some 30 units, which I split into two groups, and posted at each “end” of my empire along the east-west axis. I took note of the fact that the forces my enemies were bringing to bear against me were coming from those two directions, with perhaps 80% of the total coming in from the east, and a much smaller force assaulting me from the west.

It was my hope that the mercenary company I sent to the western front would be able to defeat the army approaching from that direction without any further assistance, and once that force had been defeated, they could ride to the eastern front and help out there.

Nothing worked as expected, but more on that later.

By now, the enemies of the state were getting close, so I made a last ditch effort and tried to get at least one of them to agree to a cease fire.

No dice, but I didn’t really expect success.

So, I start by pulling troops out of my special structures. 8 each, Roman Cavalry, Mongolian Cavalry, and Egyptian Chariots. Promoted the best of the lot to General, and plunked them down next to my mercenary company.

Then I made the rounds at all my forts, pulling out everybody, promoting a token general for civilian control and putting him back in the fort, and then moving my troops out to the eastern front….two on the front line with my other two groups, and two in reserve (all chariots!).

And I waited.

The long lines of blue-bannered Greek soldiers hit first, and MAN can those guys fight! I didn’t think I’d ever see the end of them! They closed ranks with my Egyptian Infantry companies and cut them to pieces in no time. Thankfully though, while they were hammering me, even though my own infantry didn’t put a significant hurting on them, the constant humming of bows from chariot-mounted archers was taking a toll, and before long, their ranks began crumbling.

One bright spot on the battlefield for me though, was my collection of Fryhtens. I had six in all, and those guys really came through for me. They were a motley collection, no two alike, but they absolutely devastated anything that came up against them, including single-handedly routing a column of Persian foot-soldiers—new recurits, obviously, but still….seeing a bright spot on the battlefield was very refreshing!

On the western front, things were quickly turning to disaster. My opponents there were Viking Infantry….awesome on the attack, but with relatively poor defense. Trouble was, they outnumbered my guys about three to one (and this was the SMALL attack force!), and all those massive damage strikes quickly whittled down my force against them to dangerous levels. Seeing this, I checked my Chariot, Roman and Mongolian Cavalry buildings looking for reinforcements, but not much time had passed since I’d emptied them out, so there were only 1-2 available at each structure. I took what they had, and shipped them west frantically, then hit the Inns again. Not many there, but I hired every body I could find (peasants included!) and shipped them west.

As the new mercenaries headed west, the last of my mighty Fryhtens died under the never-ending onslaught of Persian, Greek, and Celt troops, and with their deaths, the Mercenary company I had fielded in the East lost its stomach for battle. Four of my remaining units surrendered to the enemy and began heading for enemy towns (at least they weren’t attacking me, so that was something!), and while the rest continued to fight, their numbers had been thinned enough that they just didn’t seem to be up to dealing out the damage needed to hold off the attackers.

So, I gathered up what the remnants and hustled them off to the nearest fort to rest, and brought up my reserves who looked eager enough, even if they were not particularly skilled.

And then, another bright spot! Apparently two of the civilian spies I’d recruited ages ago and placed into the towns of my competitors had been hired and trained as soldiers….even better, they were generals!

I waited until the latest waves of troops was almost on top of me, and then revealed my spies, and hurried my two “bonus” generals behind my wall of charioteers….then we braced for impact.

In the thick of the fighting, I got a message telling me that my “Seat of Power” was idle. Excellent! I was running out of guys, so I popped Isis out for a quick fill up on troops…..30 new Egyptian civilians and 15 new Mongols….once more, the special unit facilities were humming with activity, and I began training two full troops of regular infantry besides.

Another quick trip to the Inn to hire anybody who was hanging around added a few more bodies to the fray, and it was back to the front lines.

Finally, things seemed to be slacking off a bit! On the western front, things had turned to my favor, and my hodge-podge army over there began the arudous process of tracking down odd Vikings here and there that were attacking mines, markets, factories, and so forth. Things were still grim on the eastern front, and I was getting pushed back steadily, but at least there were no more troops coming. It appeared that if I could buy a bit of time with the army I had in the field right then, I’d probably be able to train enough new troops to push them back.

So I waited, and kept my guys in fighting groups as best I could.

Then Thor showed up, along with Athena and Mars (not sure why Mars came along….his special strikes me as being more useful BEFORE a battle starts, but there he was just the same).

Suddenly, I’m fighting troops who are invincible, and dealing with thunderbolts from the heavens that are cooking my charioteers in twos and threes.

Crisis time, once more.

So, even though I’m not ready, I empty out all my forts, special unit structures, and inns again, netting on average 3 units from each place, and send 20-odd brand new recruits to their deaths, but I was determined to hold out as long as I could.

Finally, the mop up was complete in the west, and the remnants of that army (‘bout 6 units) turned and headed east, and every time a soldier in any training area finished his basic training, I’d pop him out and head him to the front, which put me in the position of keeping pace with the death toll, but not much else. Essentially, it had become a static battle. They were killing them as fast as I brought them out, we really weren’t doing much damage at all, but at least I could replace the dead ones.

Finally, mercifully, Thor and company vanished from the field, and I felt a renewed surge of hope.

Then Green launched another wave of Greeks at me….perhaps fifty in all, and I almost screamed in frustration.

I simply couldn’t ask any more of my tattered army. They were hanging on by a thread as it was, and with the size of the approaching force there was simply no hope.

In desperation, I sounded the retreat and put everybody on the defensive inside the forts near the heart of my empire.

The Green Greeks hit my unprotected towns like a tornado, quickly reducing my fringe Egyptian and Mongol towns to zero populations, and taking out one of my inns, two science towers, and a fort. The upshot was that my troops got some BADLY needed rest and some of them actually recovered a few hit points.

I was still faithfully checking the Inns, snagging whatever troops I could find, and adding them to my force pool….biding my time as I watched more of my structures fall apart.

Then I caught a break.

Tan sent a request for a cease-fire.

Blue sent one less than a week later, so now it was me and green.

Green had an army….I had….well, a patchwork quilt, at best.

What I saw next took me by surprise. In fact, it took me several seconds to actually comprehend what was happening.

A long column of Yellow Greek soldiers was moving toward the battle. For the span of several heartbeats, I held my breath and waited for the message “Yellow declares war on you” to appear, but it never did.

And then, when the clang of steel on steel began sounding, I realized that they had come to help! I had an ally willing to stand with me!

With renewed hope, I checked my three remaining forts and pulled out anybody who was in any kind of fighting shape at all, formed them up into an almost-respectable (still motley, but at that point, I was just glad to have an ARMY!) force. They plunged headlong back into the fight, and swiftly routed the contingent they came up against, then moved to flank another group. In a word, they were ON FIRE, and they swiftly turned the Green hordes back, and when they were finished there, I didn’t even let them pause, immediately re-declaring war on tan (the weakest, and also closest), and kept hammering him with my now veteran rag-tag unit until he simply ceased to exist.

While I was beating on Tan, Green called me up requesting a cease-fire, which I GLADLY gave them, and my army headed back home to rebuild.

That’s where I am now. Back in the number one slot in every category—mostly thanks to Isis and her special ability which allowed me to rapidly recover my lost population points, with a big army (somewhat ill-trained, but I’m getting used to that), and a recent declaration of war by blue and green.

My veterans from the last war have already been dispatched, and we are determined that the next war will not be fought on our soil, but theirs.

Green has been sliced neatly in half, and their original king has been slain. A newcomer has crowned himself, but we’ve reduced them to one Greek town, and we’re heading that way now.

Blue, a mix of Celt, Roman, and Greek themselves will prove harder, no doubt. They’ve got the second largest army (behind me), and are en route to my lands.

As with last time, my allies (purple and yellow) have refused my calls for aid, but unlike the last time, I have a whole lot of experience now that was lacking before.

I know we will prevail.


-=Vel=-

[rwprice]

Vel,
Great write-up! I really enjoyed your thoughts on 7K2. I haven't played it yet, because at the time I downloaded it, I had decided to give Age of Empires another chance. I'm still green at all these strategy games, but I've been playing Civ-type games for the last few months, so I was ready for a change of pace. The one thing I'm reminded of every time I go back to AOE, though, is that I hate the way you can get slaughtered by not keeping up with what's happening in all parts of the map. I build up a fighting force, but they get cut down while I'm defending my villagers at home. It's quite a frustrating experience. How would you compare 7K2 with AOE?

[The Commodore]

Heh, funny write up.

Where can I find 7K2?

[Velociryx]

Hey guys! No ‘net access at home just now, so I had to wait till I got to work to check the forums here! As to the epic battle….well…it wasn’t as epic as I had hoped for. I learned a great deal about combat in general in the 7k2 world, and was able to use what I had learned to devastating effect. Despite the fact that the opposition was able to field a slightly bigger force than me, I was able to cut them pretty much to ribbons.

One thing I DID discover is that fighting is NOT the best way to take control of an empire though. Once I had beaten the blue guys troops and wrangled another cease-fire, I recruited and/or trained a hefty number of spies, let their skills build up sufficiently, and then sent them into every blue fortress and camp….bribed all his generals, and then took control of his forts (and as I did, I cackled with glee and said aloud “all your base, are belong to me!” which made my girlfriend glance over at me as though I was completely insane), and then proceeded to trash all his infrastructure with his own guys. My now veteran army pretty much stayed home.

Comparisons: AoE and 7k2

It’s been a LONG time since I tinkered with AoE, but I believe that making extensive use of the “pause” feature is key to SP….in MP….I dunno, but I agree that when there are half a dozen battles going on, it can get frustratingly hard to keep track of how everyone is doing.

In 7k2 at least, here’s the solution I have found. It’s not perfect, but it gets you by when there is suddenly a lot going on.

First and foremost, do what you can to limit your engagements. I can keep up with 2-3 battles happening at various points on the map, but more than that and I get lost, so if I’m fighting too many battles, I’ll very often pull some troops into a nearby fort, and just let my opponents beat on my infrastructure for a few minutes until I can wrap some other battle up and give them my full attention. That’s a pretty workable thing, cos your buildings can take a LOT of punishment, especially if you set them to repair while they’re being beaten down, and it has worked 100% of the time for me thus far.

Second thing, and my main mistake when I got attacked by the three nations mentioned above…..creating a “group” of units in the field is NOT the same as creating a “troop” of units by sending them to a fort or camp and then using the sortie button to release them with their commander! Creating a “troop” using the above-mentioned method gives every soldier in that troop a combat bonus equal to the leadership percentage of their general—doing it the other way confers no bonus whatsoever!

So….during the late stages of the big battle I described above, it was no wonder that my motley unit of soldiers was on fire. Their general had a whopping 153% Leadership skill, so all my troops were VASTLY more effective!

Third thing: Use formations! Invariably, the formations are set up to protect the general and give him cover….very handy thing, that!

Fourth, put all your forts and troops on “defensive” posture. That way, when forts are attacked, you don’t get a handful of leaderless troops popping out of said fort and attempting to deal with the attackers on their own. Also, it keeps your troops in those spiffy formations you set up….they don’t go gallavanting all over the map trying to hunt down enemy soldiers.

Fifth, focus your firepower on one unit at a time. If you’ve got numerical superiority, click on the enemy troops until you find the general and take him out first. When you do, a few of the enemy troops will surrender. Send them to a fort someplace and work on building up another “troop” of soldiers. Also, by focusing your firepower on one unit at a time, rather than letting them pick their targets, you get rid of the enemy army quicker.

Sixth: If you ARE fighting multiple battles, and there’s at least one where you’ve got a clear advantage in number, set those—the battles you’re fighting where you’ve got the clear advantage—to “aggressive mode. That way, they’ll hunt down targets on their own and you don’t have to pay as much attention to them….giving you time to focus on the tighter battles you might be involved in.

Seventh: When a soldier has less than half his hit points (or 10, in the case of green troops), retreat them to a fort to rest! The main point here is long-term force preservation. Unlike WarCraft/C&C, you really ARE limited in the total number of troops you can field. True, the presence of a large number of Inns will offset your population limits, but even then, it’s only to a point because you’re still limited by the amount of food production you’ve got in total. If you have a big surplus, you can temporarily run with an “inflated” army, but sooner or later, there’s going to be a price to pay.

Eighth (and IMO, most important!) NEVER forget the value of espionage!!! Suddenly and unexpectedly taking control of one or more enemy generals/forts can completely change the character of the game. Not to mention, stolen tech is tech you don’t have to research!

Ahhh, and to answer the other question, you can pick up a copy of the game here: http://www.theunderdogs.org



Happy Hunting!
-=Vel=-

[Drago Sinio]

Hey Vel! Sounds like fun. I downloaded 7k2 the other night, will have to give it a go.

[Velociryx]

Been on vacation, and playing around a bit….came across another undiscovered gem I thought I might write a bit about….fantastic game, and everyone who plays SMAC and enjoys its more “Builderesque” elements will REALLY love this!

First, let me say that I’ve gone and done it again. Was scouring the Underdogs site (http://www.theunderdogs.org) for forgotten classics or really good games that only got a cult following, and I really hit the mother lode!

It’s called Imperialism II, and if you’ve never played it, you’re in for a real treat! If you enjoy empire building games that are far more strategic in their nature than tactical, if you like the process of creating and refining an empire, then you’ll fall instantly in love with this game. There’s just no other way to say it.

The game opens in 1502, Europe, during the age of exploration. You can play as any of the following nations (in the order of number of territories controlled at start): France (15), Spain (14), Sweden (11), England (8), Holland (6), or Portugal (4). A word about balance here seems in order (with more later). It may seem at first glance that playing Portugal (4 territories) would be a much harder game than France (with 15), but this is in fact, not the case. It DOES change the character of your game, but I found that the compact nature of the smaller countries actually works to make certain aspects of putting your empire together an easier proposition…anyway, more on that later.

So….you pick your country and get to it, and man is it tough in the early goings! SSI did a superb job with balancing playability and realism….I used to be able to say that, as a long-time student of economics, I could only imagine the absolute nightmare of taking a feudal, agrarian society and turning it into an industrial powerhouse…..now, I can say I know the feeling….UGH….it’s no picnic folks….a very delicate balancing act is required to even survive the early game! One misstep in the early years and you’ll set yourself back years, so be careful!

The particulars:
Each turn, there’s a lot to do, but the game is blessed with a terrific interface that is both fairly intuitive and blended beautifully into the game. Everything has a consistent, “rustic” look that is very much in keeping with the timeframe the game’s set in.

At start, you’ve got a handful of raw materials (timber, raw iron, tin, copper, and wool being your first, most basic resources—along with food which comes in two categories, Wheat and Meat/Fish), a smallish army (about three units at start), and a fleet of about the same size. You also begin with three civilian workers (1 Builder, 1 Engineer, and 1 Explorer).

A note about units!
All naval, military, and labor units (peasants) have realistic support costs! To recruit troops or build and staff additional ships, you MUST pull laborers off of their currently assigned tasks—in other words, your population decreases. Additionally, each laborer, soldier, and crewman must be supported by sufficient food production. New units brought into play will alternate between requiring one unit of wheat and one unit of meat/fish, meaning that, in addition to building mines, roads, and lumber mills, you’ve also got to constantly build more farms and cattle ranches or what you’ll wind up with is a lot of developed resources and an insufficient labor pool. Again, a balancing act.

You DO get some “free” units (units that do not have to be supported by food), and these come in the form of your civilian workers. At game start, you may build Explorers (your eyes, they can move around in unexplored territories and scout for new resources), Builders (makers of mines, lumber yards, farms, and all manner of land improvements—the “formers” of Imperialism, and they have to support costs!), Engineers (also like formers, except that they are used to build roads and improvements to towns—fortifications and ports), and Spies (to help speed your research and stuff!). More civilian units become available as you progress through the tech tree.

Resources:
By far, the most important early game resources are wool, unrefined iron, and timber. From wool, you get cloth, and cloth is needed to recruit additional workers. Timber can be processed into either paper (used to recruit additional civilian units) or lumber (used for….well, everything), and raw iron can be processed into refined iron, which is also used for…well, everything. Eventually, you’ll need to worry about tin and copper (for making bronze, used to make early war materials in the pre-steel era), but to get started, I’d not pay terribly much attention to that.

Diplomacy:
As far as I can tell, there is simply no way to excel at the game without paying close attention to diplomacy, and again, SSI did a superb job at making diplomacy a key (and entertaining!) aspect of the game. To improve your relationships with the other nations (either other Great Powers like yourself, or the various minor nations in the game), you must trade with them. Each successful deal serves to improve your relationship with the nation traded with. Occasionally, random events will also improve or hurt your relationship with the other nations, and if you allow the relationship to drop too low, or if you are perceived as being significantly weaker, you run a very real risk of being attacked!

To speed the process of improving your standing with various countries around the world, you can give trade subsidies (listed as a percentage: 5, 10. 25, 50. 75, or 100!), or cash grants (which can be set up as one time affairs or given every turn till you turn it off). To punish nations, you can boycott their products and/or boycott products from their new world colonies. All of this can be fine-tuned country-by-country, allowing for precise and masterful control of your diplomatic climate.

Early game warfare (against new world territories) is mostly a tactical affair, but there are some key strategic elements involved. When your scouting ships discover new world territories, your explorers should immediately begin striking for the interior, scouting things out and looking for riches. When riches are found, you can send merchants to the new world to buy up prime bits of real estate (strategic), and turn a tidy profit by hauling cargo from the new world back home for sale…or, you can send your army out to go capture the territory from the locals (strategic/tactical).

The “battle board” where combats are played out is pretty simplistic, and gets tiresome after a while (against the natives in the new world, at least)….I’d say that combat is probably the weakest point in the game but it’s entertaining enough to keep you interested (at least on par with SMAC combat, I’d say). So….battling the natives is the tactical aspect of it all, but deciding which territories you want to expand into….that’s vastly more a strategic exercise.

In the new world, you gain access to a number of new resource types (cotton, spices, tobacco, gold, silver, gems, furs, and sugar), as well as vast supplies of all your old favorites. Yes, the lure of gems and precious metals is strong, but far and away the most important product in the new world is sugar. Sugar cane can be turned into refined sugar, and refined sugar is how you keep your apprentice workers happy. Apprentice workers (available after some fairly extensive research) are recruited from the ranks of your peasant laborers, and are “worth” four times as much in terms of their productivity. Conclusion: If you want to leap ahead of the pack in the mid-game, you NEED lots of sugar. If you have it, and your opponents don’t—or if they have significantly less than you—then you’ll have a huge advantage, because as you train more and more apprentices, you can free up an increasing number of peasants to recruit into the army, swelling the ranks very quickly. So…when you’re exploring the new world, snag as much sugar as you can. Ahhh….and keep an eye on territories that have mountain ranges running through them! Those really tend to be the mother lode! Not much sugar, but a mountainous territory that’s barely a tenth the size of your starting country might contain more iron ore and precious metals than any two nations in Europe!

Don’t get greedy though! I’d limit New World expansion to no more than 12-15 territories, so choose them well and wisely! The reason you don’t want to expand into too many New World territories is because once all the “neutrals” are gone, the Great Powers then begin to turn on each other. As long as there are neutrals up for grabs though, as long as you don’t make too many waves, no one will attack you. Anyway, 12-15 New World territories. Choose them well, focus on sugar and mountainous territories and you’re on your way!

Crucial technologies:
· Improved Roads – Allows the transport of 2 units of goods per developed tile across roads. Utterly crucial, as it will effectively double the productive capacity of your tiles.
· Apprentice workers – four times more effective than a peasant worker.
· Indiamen – Merchant ship with a cargo capacity of 8! And, it only takes wood, iron, and cloth (preserving your scarce bronze for army units)
· Horse Artillery – Hands down the best early game assault unit. Artillery is not needed when fighting the natives in the new world, but if you don’t have massive firepower when fighting in Europe or assaulting fortified New World holdings, you’re toast!

Winning the game:
Despite the focus on the New World (which really is vital to your survival in the mid-game), the only way to WIN the game is to control 42 or more territories in the Old World, and that’s no easy task. There are, however, some very important things you can do to help yourself in that regard.

1) Be careful with alliances! If you enter into an alliance with another Great Power and that GP attacks or is attacked, you WILL BE expected to help. If you don’t help, the alliance is immediately dissolved, and that nation’s opinion of you drops dramatically, quickly undoing all those carefully planned trade deals you made. Thus, don’t make alliances lightly, or you’ll wind up with everyone hating you!
2) Don’t be last place, militarily! Keep watching your status. It’s okay to be somewhere in the middle of the pack, but don’t be last! Invariably, in the middle game, when the new world has been conquered, the game goes through a shakeout period, and it’s usually the guy with the smallest military that gets….well…shaken out. Don’t let that be you, and watch the diplomatic radar closely! When one of the Great Powers slips and begins losing territory, THEN is the time to declare war as well (opportunistically) and absorb some of their holdings into your own. Make sure to scarf up any New World territories that are adjacent to yours in order to consolidate your position there, and also don’t hesitate to grab any European provinces you can!
3) Absorb a Minor Nation – If you’ve been trading regularly with one or more neutrals, and offering good subsidies, you’ll soon ‘max out’ your relationship with that country. Build an embassy there as you go, and when the timing is right, ask that nation to join your own.
4) Conquer a Minor Nation – Especially if they’re already being munched on by some other Great Power. Might as well join the fray!

Naval Combat:
I’m not sure how I feel about it. On the one hand, it’s a bit of a disappointment in the sense that all naval combat is abstracted. You give your fleets general orders (assign to merchant duty, blockade, patrol, escort, etc), and the computer tells you the results. There’s no chance to influence the combat at all. On the other hand, the tactical level combats are not this game’s strong suit anyway, so….::shrug:: It’s interesting enough as it is, and lends a greater sense of the strategic to the game.

Moving units around:
This takes some getting used to, and it makes warfare both easier and harder than you might be accustomed to.

Your units can be in any territory you control in a single turn. If you have your entire army in Paris, they can be in your New World holdings the very next turn. That’s weird. It also makes for a defensive nightmare, because there’s no way you can possibly defend all of your territory.

One thing you can do is construct a basic fort in every territory that shares a border with another country, and fortify every coastal province to guard against a naval assault. That, at least, prevents a lone unit from putzing through your otherwise empty territory and claiming your New World prizes. If you can spare the manpower (which you probably won’t be able to), drop in 1-2 bowmen (poor choice), or musketeers (better by far).

I’ve gotten in the habit of “zoning” my empire and making one decent battle force for each zone (2-3 zones in all). A decent battle force by the mid-game consists of 2 mounted units (Lancers or Cossacks), 4 Musketeers, and 2-3 Horse Artillery. That’ll provide you with sufficient punch to knock out lightly held enemy positions, and the forces can be brought together for assaults against heavily fortified enemy capitols.

More about troops:
Troops gain experience over time. Every three victories or five defeats that a unit is involved in, he gets a “medal” which increases his effectiveness by a factor of 25%. A unit can receive a maximum of four medals. Also, as your technology increases, your existing units (including ships) can be upgraded by paying the full price of the new unit, minus the hit to your labor force. In this way, you can carefully craft a real killing machine of an army, but as you can imagine, based on the intricate system of interdependencies described thus far, replacing lost troops is no easy feat, and the loss of experienced troops can be a crushing blow indeed, so guard them carefully!

Turn Advancement:
From 1502 to 1700, each turn is two years long and starting in 1700, this changes to a turn a year, which represents the general advancement of society—tech advances start coming faster from a “years” perspective, etc—and the effects of industrialization in general.

Generals:
Keep units from routing. You get one general (free) for every ten units you put in the field. I’ve never seen that they did much good, but maybe I wasn’t looking at the right thing….don’t know. Haven’t had enough combats involving Generals to really make an informed opinion, but I’d imagine that a General with four medals would be a pretty impressive fellow.

Other stuff:
This game unfolds very slowly, so it might not be for everyone. I bring it up here because I know from watching the boards that there are a number of people currently playing SMAC/AC who really enjoy the Builder elements of the game, and that’s what you get (and then some!) with Imperialism.

Almost forgot! Notes about the different countries!
Earlier, I mentioned that some countries seem much harder to play than others (Portugal, with her four territories in Europe vs. France with fifteen at game start). This is true in some respects (ie – winning the game takes 42 European territories, so obviously France has a leg up on Portugal in that regard, at least), but the game is so exquisitely balanced that Portugal (and all the smaller nations in Europe) winds up with some key advantages.

First, if you want to play a smaller nation, you get the blessings that come with your smallness. Every “level one” improvement you make (farms, roads, mines, cattle ranches, all of it!) takes 1 Lumber and 1 Refined Iron to make—and 1-2 turns in time. Thus, while France has significantly more territory than Portugal, they need to build significantly more roads in order to make use of their various resources. Additionally, while France is blessed with the most territory in the game, their nation has only three iron mines (when developed to level one, this means three units of unrefined iron—1.5 units of refined iron—per turn. That’s pitiful, AND it’ll take a while to even get there, because all of France’s iron deposits are on the fringes of the country, and road building out to them will take YEARS.

Contrast that to Portugal, who can build roads to ALL their resources before France can even reach their iron deposits. That puts the in the position of being able to get geared up and running good while France is still floundering in the mud. What it means then, is that the little guys OWN the early game, and if they can strike out fast and get “first pick” of New World territories, they can have those territories up and running and defended before the lumbering bigger powers can even get in gear.

The downside is that the little guys have a smaller population base (fewer farms producing wheat). The cattle farms are relatively unimportant because cattle and fish can be used interchangeably, and ports can be built to bring in more fish. Therefore, what really sets the upper limit of your population is the number of wheat farms you’ve got access to. When you run out, you hit the wall.

Thus, both diplomacy and warfare are VASTLY more important for the smaller nations. Getting in good with one or more minor nations and absorbing them can double the size of your European holdings! On the other hand, bulking up a good army and simply bulldogging your way through a minor power will see you in a similar position.



-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

Country by Country:
France – Has tremendous potential for the mid-game, but they’re relatively slow to develop. Your best bet is to begin building a road from Paris, striking south toward your (distant) iron mines, developing resources along the road as you go. Of all the nations, if you focus heavily on trade, you can most easily dominate world markets and thus, have a relatively lesser need for alliances at all. Simply give everyone trade subsidies of 10% to keep the peace all ‘round and use your economic muscle to fuel your way to victory.

Spain – Your fractured start leaves you adjacent to just about everybody, giving you enormous flexibility. Given the way troops move in this game, the Spanish probably have the most enviable starting position on the whole map. Just plod along much like France, and keep your army strong. If Portugal, Holland or France begin to slip at all, you’ve got holdings adjacent to them that can be used as staging areas for attacks of your own. In all, you’ve got the easiest time increasing your European holdings, simply by virtue of being adjacent to so many people. On the other hand, if you are ganged up on, you’re doomed. Alliances are important for Spain to avoid getting ganged up on too badly, but choose them wisely. An alliance with the English, especially, will put you in a Splendid position.

England – Ahhhh, the Sceptered Isle! Diplomacy is a must for you if you want to get on the Euro mainland. Make friends with the Swiss (who border almost everyone) and absorb them ASAP. That’ll give you the staging area you need to take the rest of Europe. Also, you MUST either befriend/absorb or crush Scotland underfoot before someone else gains a toehold on your island. If they do, you’re in a really vulnerable spot!

Sweden – Lots of territories, but your resources are in widely scattered pockets which will see your development only plodding along. Also, you’re 1-2 turns “further away” from the New World. That doesn’t seem like much, but it DOES mean that you probably won’t be first in the New World. Get there as fast as you can and attack more quickly than your rivals to make up the lost time (minimal scouting, a couple of riskier combats with damaged units should put you back on par). Absorb Denmark to gain access to the rest of Europe. An alliance with distant Portugal can set you up to divide Europe with them, and you’ve already got the upper hand, since you start with more territories.

Holland – Like Portugal, you’ve got the advantage of your smallish size in the early game. Like Sweden, you’re slightly further from the New World that the others, which means you’ve got to hustle. On the upside, you’re adjacent to lots of Neutrals who are just BEGGING to be added to your holdings! You NEED to keep Sweden penned in the north, so you must prevent them from acquiring Denmark at all costs! Beat them to the punch! In the south, keep a close eye on Spain, and if she falters, be quick about grabbing her “detached” holdings that are adjacent to you! The combination of acquiring Denmark and those Spanish colonies will about double your holdings in Europe and position you nicely for the win.

Portugal – Tiny, resources all packed together, and closest to the New World! Go out, conquer quickly, and build a large Merchant fleet to cart all the goods home. Keep an eye out for Spain, and AS SOON as they pick a fight with someone and get their nose bloodied, declare war! You’re relatively isolated from all of the other Great Powers and with only Spain to worry about, if you wait until someone else has them in a hammer lock, you can sneak in and add your dagger as well, and with tiny Portugal, it’s not at all hard to double the size of your holdings at Spain’s expense! NEVER make an alliance with Spain….they’re the nation that’s blocking your progress through the rest of Europe!

Finis:
Thought I’d better mention that um….this is a LONG game! Don’t be surprised if you only get one finished over the course of an entire weekend! Oh, and don’t even bother with the random maps….they’re nowhere NEAR as entertaining as the map of Europe!

-=Vel=-

[rwprice]

Vel,
Great write up on Imperialism II! I have Imperialism I, so when I found II on the Underdogs site, I was happy to get it. I experienced a problem, though, and I'd like to see if you've run into this. There's a noticeable delay in the time between when I click the mouse and when the program responds. This delay makes the game unplayable. I suspect it may have something to do with the sound, since my copy of Imp I has a similar problem, but it goes away if I disable the music. Turning the volume down in Imp II doesn't help. It looks like a great game, and I'd love to be able to play it, but I can't as long as this continues. Any thoughts?

[Velociryx]

Hey man! Hmmm.....nope....I had no difficulties with unpacking and running the program. What kinna system are you running? I'll see if I can maybe re-create it on my end....figure out what gives....

Had a great game last night, but it's clear that I'm still on the learning curve. Normal difficulty as France....bit off more than I could chew in the new world tho, and didn't pay enough attention to the homefront....Spain decided to get rowdy, and although I held on for a while, I just didn't have the military machine put together at that point in the game to pull it off....so...chalk up a win for the AI against me, but I'm planning to try again this evening....cool game....

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

I see that a number of folks have read this thread over the past couple of days, and just in case those who have read have also downloaded the game, I thought I’d share my latest game experience.

Started as France, used what has become my “standard opener” for that nation, heading south from Paris with my trusty engineer, with an eye toward road-building out to the three iron deposits the French have access to. Turn one, I set the “Large Hull – Indiaman” as my research goal, and began working on all three of the “level one” techs that are pre-requisites for it. Also established embassies with both the Italians and the Swiss with the long-term goal of bringing them under my control in the mid game without firing a shot.

Subsidies – I gave the Swiss and Italians 25% (this would be increased to 50% in a few turns, and finally to 75% sometime around 1600). All the other Great Powers in the game got a 10% trade subsidy from me.

Immediately recruited two new workers (which exhausted my supply of cloth), and a second Explorer (which left me with only two paper, and I promptly put those on the open market for some quick cash).

Trade-wise, everything worked like a dream. I was getting deals reliably from both the Italians and the Swiss every turn, and my progress with the Builder/Engineer team was plodding but steady.

In 1510 I discovered the New World, and my pair of Explorers immediately set out to do some serious shroud busting in the region. I found my first target right away….a territory containing two sugar cane tiles that appeared (if the intelligence report could be trusted) to be lightly guarded….so, I set my “fleet” –a single Carrack—to prep a landing site, and put the Army of Paris on alert for marching orders the following turn.

As I had hoped, the battle went swimmingly! There were only two native units present, and we crushed them under the heel of our French boots. The province was ours! Further scouting revealed that there were two “capitol territories” (the Souix and the Pueblo?) nearby, and that’s when I knew this was going to be a real gem of a game. Two ports within easy striking distance, and every turn, my Explorers were uncovering more of what I wanted to see. Lots of mountainous terrain, and lots of sugar. Heaven.

Plans were immediately made to bulk up my military presence in the New World (since my trusty three units—1 Pikeman, 1 Musketeer, and 1 Knight—would surely be insufficient to capture a capitol territory. I knew going in that this would set me back a bit economically, but the rewards were simply too great to be ignored!

So…as I was making the necessary materials (cloth and bronze) I’d need to train a pair of new knights, my Explorers revealed that neighboring territories contained gold, silver, AND gems! Ahhhh, the riches of the mountains! And as luck would have it, those territories fell directly along the “conquest path” I had mapped out to reach one of the two Indian capitols.

Before long, the new Knights were en route to my new colony and my explorers had discovered more iron ore in the mountain regions nearby than was contained in all of France…all of TWO Frances, actually, and my spirits were soaring! As fate/luck/good scouting would have it, I had landed myself right in the heart of the mother lode!

With the army reinforced, they swiftly began a program of systematic conquest, resting only when one or more units was really banged up, otherwise, pressing our advantage every turn and claiming more and more of the riches we had discovered thus far. Eight years later, we drew up next to the capitol of the Souix, and stopped. My troops had a medal each, but would need to be at their best before attempting such a fight. The timing worked out great too, because I was running out of money, and I knew from previous attempts that capturing a capitol territory brought with it a cash windfall.

So….a few years spent polishing my gains (and sending my overworked Engineer to the New World to begin the arduous task of road-building down from the mountains where all the riches were out toward the port that (hopefully) would soon be in my possession.

We held our breath, and waited anxiously…praying that no other Great Power would beat us to the punch while we were prepping for the fight ahead.

Luck held, no one attacked or bought territory in the province we had our eye on, and battle was joined! This time, however, our goal wasn’t to crush the defenders. I knew that with the capture of the capitol, my army would be turning its attention elsewhere (the OTHER native capitol, several territories away). And, since I’d be spending no more time acquiring territories in this region, I figured I’d try to play to the metagame a bit and let the natives I did battle with escape (they would flee to neighboring territories, none of which I had designs on, which would make battling that much more difficult for my rivals!)

We took the province without a single loss, and managed to drive off the defenders without killing any of them, so everything worked exactly according to plan, and we repositioned the army for a move against the second capitol territory in the area.

Essentially, it was a repeat performance. A relentless drive until we were adjacent to the capitol, then drawing up and pausing long enough to rest the army completely and then, the big finish. This then, saw me with some eight territories in the New World, and my trusty Carrack had since found another (even larger!) continent with a great many tribes.

I was sorely tempted to not follow my own advice and take my now veteran (3 medals each) army and simply conquer everything I saw, but no….having crashed and burned on two other occasions for getting too greedy, I wisely avoided that trap this time. I DID want to get a foothold on the other continent, however, and so sent my Explorers there to begin doing some more advance scouting.

I immediately liked what I saw.

Another lightly held territory containing sugar, not far from the capitol of the Inca.

Sweet.

So, three Knights were immediately dispatched, leaving a Pikeman and a Musketeer in my original New World holdings (That’s the bad thing about Carracks….only a 3 space cargo bay!)

Fortunately, now that the Knights were sporting three medals each, they cut through the Incan resistance like it was a ginsu cutting through a tin can (and look! It can still slice a tomato like nobody’s business…yours now for only 19.95…er…sorry, too many late night infomercials….lol).

The following turn, the rest of the Army of France was on scene, and we repeated our basic attack pattern for the third time.

And for the third time, we met with complete success.

Now, in the late 1600’s, with twelve New World territories under my belt (including three ports that I didn’t have to spend resources to build!), and running a solid first place with Holland and Spain fighting for second, I turned my full attention to my Merchant Fleet. Oh, I had been adding to it as I could of course, but with three ports, I suddenly found myself awash in so many imports from the colonies that I really began feeling the crunch where shipping was concerned.

My exploratory Carrack was sent home to be added to the Merchant Marine, and in the mean time, plans were made to construct three additional Fluytes—a step up from the Carrack, with 4 cargo spaces--(I had already built two of these and I STILL didn’t have enough shipping….such are the riches of the New World.)

Before long, the ships were built, but sadly, all the time and attention I had to devote to building up the navy took its toll. I was now listed third overall, but I felt certain that my investment would pay off in the long run.

Technologically, Indiamen were finally on the horizon, which was a relief to see….a relatively cheap ship with a massive cargo bay—fully double what my poor Fluytes could carry. I found myself looking forward to the day when I could begin launching them, and to that end, began stockpiling as much lumber, cloth, and refined iron as I could, with plans to go on a massive building binge the moment I could build my coveted Indiamen.

And, since those massive trade ships play such a crucial role in my long-term plans, the next logical step was to add more Builders and Engineers, and set about the task of making my New World colonies pay with a vengeance!

Three new Builders and two new Engineers were trained. One of each stayed in France, to finish out the road network to the last of our farms and cattle ranches—and to build improvements there to bulk up our population a bit more—and everyone else was dispatched to the colonies.

Much silver was mined. Gems. Iron deposits, and best of all…tin and copper for bronze (France has a single tin mine and nothing else….I had been bleeding my bank account very badly buying copper and finished bronze, and was looking forward to the day when I could begin to make bronze myself, without having to beg, borrow or steal for it….a happy day indeed!) And, when the Builders weren’t mining, they were prepping sugar cane fields (I had fourteen of them!!), because I was researching “Apprentice Workers.” Seven Apprentice workers could be supported by my available sugar fields….fourteen as soon as I got the tech that bumped road transport to two goods per developed tile….that was huge.

Once again, everything worked exactly as planned, and before long, my economic power was listed as “Awesome,” while militarily I was showing up as “Fair.” A quick check of general information revealed that I utterly OWNED the world export market (my shipping capacity was over a hundred at this point, and I was buying and selling like a mad hatter every turn, generating some fifteen hundred bucks in profits AFTER paying for all my research and despite the trade subsidies I was doling out). My relationship with everyone was rising steadily—the whole diplomacy map had this very soothing greenish quality to it. Every turn I was being courted by at least one of the Great Powers for an Alliance, and I knew that, despite the rosy diplomatic scene, I needed to cast my lot in one direction or another, else the “aligned” Great Powers would simply find a reason to attack my less-than-stellar army and take me out of the game.

I had been watching Sweden flounder about for much of the game, and decided I’d NOT go with them. England and Spain had been warring off and on for the past century, and I really didn’t relish the thought of getting in the middle of that, so they were out. It came down then, to either Holland or Portugal, and in the end, I chose Portugal as I feared Holland might make a move on either Italy or Switzerland that would force me to break the peace with them. At least with Portugal our interests didn’t collide, and it gave me a number of secure borders in the New World.

-=Vel=-
(to be continued)

[Velociryx]

So, Portugal it was!

About ten years later, they declared war on England, and I was drawn into that conflict anyway.

I bulked up my escort fleet and kept building ships anytime I had the chance (though I have not yet gotten around to upgrading my horribly outdated Flyutes, and when I stopped for the night it was almost two, and 1738!), meanwhile, my awesome sugar production kept the economy humming along nicely even when I mass-recruited peasants into the army (I lost my “awesome” economic standing though, but wound up with Good in both that and the military category).

So here I am, preparing for a war that I don’t really want with the English, otherwise minding my own business, and then…Sweden just EXPLODES! They declare war with both Holland and England, and proceed to utterly thrash them both, kicking them almost entirely out of the New World, and overnight becoming the Godzilla of Europe. They also declare war on little Italy, who I’d been priming to join my side.

Well, considering that I was already in a war with England, I didn’t really want to leap to Italy’s aid and open up the fight with the Swedes as well, so…I did the next best thing…I declared war on them too! (Figuring I’d net at least a couple territories out of the deal).

The Spaniards weren’t having any of that, however, and promptly declared war on ME for declaring war on Italy (kind of a double standard, I thought….they didn’t seem to mind when Sweden did it, but they got all rowdy when I decided to join the party).

So now I’ve got war on a huge front, and the cursed Spaniards have territories bordering some of my most lucrative New World real estate (exposing about two thirds of my sugar production, and ALL of my precious metals to attack!)

Well, clearly, I couldn’t very well lose that stuff, so I gave up my designs on Italy for the moment, and split my army into two camps….one for home defense, and one for defense of my threatened colonies.

The home guard got the bigger chunk of troops (with more being trained every turn), because of the extremely wide front the Spanish could invade along, and I broke off small detachments (2 Musketeers) and put them in forts along the border, moving them to match the moves of the Spaniards who threatened.

For a few years, the front in Europe was eerily quiet. Move and countermove, a few false start invasions and quick pull-backs thanks to accurate reading of where the invasions would actually occur.

In the New World, my smaller force had their hands full, however. I lost one of my richest sugar-producing states, which whacked my economy pretty hard, and wound up sending a good many of my reinforcements planned for France down to the Colonies in order to bulk up my presence there, and a terrific cat-and-mouse game ensued in the colonies. I’d get my territory back, but would not have enough time to build a fort there, so would have to abandon it to preserve the army.

The Spanish would take it and do the same.

Then I’d hit a Spanish territory (destroying the fort, and again, unable to keep it….so I’d pull back), and he’d reclaim it—and of course, while he was reclaiming it, I’d be off to go get my original territory back).

Thus, it was something of a stalemate in the New World for a time.

After watching the computer fight for a while (and wasting thousands of dollars in abortive attacks), it finally dawned on me that the way to fight in this game is to simply defend everything that’s currently being threatened, dump every man you’ve got into one massive attack force, and punch through where you want to.

Thus, after about ten years of cat-and-mouse, I changed things up on the Spanish….defending all currently threatened French territories in Europe, and creating a massive army in the Colonies.

We stormed in and destroyed a fort of his, and instead of running, we stayed put.

He countered and a bitter battle erupted, with neither side seeing the benefits of a fort.

Thanks to my preponderance of artillery, we carried the day, but the losses were pretty cutting (four of my “three medal” musketeers, and two regiments of horse artillery bit the dust). Still, the Spaniards lost far more, and once we routed them out and held the territory long enough to rebuild the fort, I had figured out my basic battle plan.

About the same time I figured out how to fight in the game, my ally, Portugal came riding to the rescue with a declaration of war against Spain, and Holland followed suit shortly thereafter (In fact, for a while, even England joined in against Spain, apparently setting aside her differences with Portugal and I to join in the feeding frenzy).

In short order, I had kicked the Spaniards out of the New World, stripping them of all their colonies—which, as luck would have it, all bordered mine. Eventually, warfare would see them with a couple other colonies far removed from mine, but for the moment, we not only carried the day in style, but we booted them out of the New World.

And then, with no time to waste, we shuttled the army back to France.

While France, Portugal, Holland and England descended on the luckless Spaniards (who got into this who mess by valiantly coming to the defense of little Italy), the Swedes continued their wrecking ball campaign through Italy and the New World, occupying the lion’s share of the continent I only had a tenuous hold on, stomping out the Aztecs, Mayans, and…I dunno, somebody else, and even declaring a brief war with Holland to consolidate their position and boot the Danes out of their section of the New World.

Meantime, Portugal and I pretty much divided up Spain (with Portugal also pressing their war with the British, acquiring most of Ireland and a smidgeon of Scotland as well).

It was almost two when I saved off, and the year was 1738. Thanks to finally figuring out warfare in this awesome, brilliant game, my ally and I have reduced the Spaniards to Madrid itself, and I’ve got the forces just outside the city gates to land the knockout punch (Oh! I forgot….they also still have Sardinia…but not for long…::evil grin:: )

Soon as Madrid/Sardinia are mine, the now “commando strength” (almost everybody has four medals) French forces will be loading up on a few Indiamen and landing in lower Britain. I’m looking to the day when Portugal feels she longer needs France and casts off our alliance….I hope they don’t, because they’ve been GREAT allies, but….they might, and I want a foothold in England if they do.

My goal is to end that fight quickly and then get the army back to France, because here’s how I think the game will shake out (if I’m reading the flow of it correctly).

With both Spain and England gone, Portugal and I locked into a mutually beneficial alliance, poor Holland will be caught in the middle. Most likely, Sweden will declare against them (they’ve fought before, in the New World), and when they do, the French guns will open up as well….hopefully acquiring some nice Danish provinces, adding further to my European holdings.

And, I plan to continue adding to the French Army….because I didn’t like being backed into declaring a war on Italy (who I was trying to absorb), so I want to be ready to defend the neutrals I’m in good with if/when Holland/Sweden declares against them….that way, they’ll instantly join my side anyway!

Whew…what a lot of writing that was…and what a great game thus far. If you’re still reading this, as you can see, diplomatic maneuvering and careful selection of allies plays an absolutely pivotal role in your success or failure. Unlike SMAC, where you can pretty much ignore the AI and still win, ignoring the AI in this game will only get you killed, or leave you so far behind that the best you can hope for is a distant third (if that!).

Summary of things I’ve learned:
1) That second Explorer in the early game is the way to go! Being able to start busting shroud in the New World is hugely important for plotting your attacks through territories containing lots of the resources you want!

2) 3 Knights, 1 Pikeman and 1 Musketeer is all the army you need to tackle even the biggest, meanest New World territories.

3) Indiamen rock!

4) Once your economy gains momentum, hire LOTS of Builders and Engineers. They’re only five hundred bucks a pop, they don’t require food for support, and they don’t make your population drop. And, you’ll be able to develop your lands MUCH more quickly by having 4-5 of each.

5) Build forts early and often! You need at least a level one fort in EVERY coastal or border territory!

6) When being attacked, look at the territories the attacks are coming from and put at least 2 Regiments of Musketeers and 1 Regiment of Horse Artillery in each province. That, combined with the fort’s stationary guns will turn back all but the most determined attacks.

7) If badly outnumbered, hang in the fight long enough to kill at least something (or badly damage several), then run like hell. They’ll destroy the fort when they move in, and your wampum-big army can hit them hard on the counter-attack.

8) Engineers (and I’d assume all civilian units) who are in a territory that is captured by a rival nation are considered killed. They vanish!

9) When assaulting a fort, don’t charge right in. Bunch your artillery near the top or bottom of the screen and blast away at the walls (outside the range of the fort’s stationary guns). Once you have a breech, send everybody en masse. The guns are good, but they can’t kill ‘em all!

10) Keep your main army together. Sure, hire lots of missile troops (Musketeers) to assist with defense, cover your artillery, and basically hide behind the walls, but aside from your “token defenders” for potentially embattled territories, you want your whole army together and maxed out, ready to march on the offensive at a moment’s notice. Preferably, by the mid game, you want TWO maxed out forces, which will enable you to either attack/staunchly defend OR launch two big attacks on different fronts.

11) When attacking from the sea, make two fleets and set them to prep two beach heads in different, but adjacent enemy territories. This way, your opponent doesn’t know which one you “really” plan to strike, and must divide his forces up further than he might like. You don’t have to decide until you see how his forces are arrayed, which means you can virtually guarantee a successful landing. Of course, ideally, you’ll want to be in a position where you can actually land at BOTH beach heads, but with so many demands for manpower, that’s not bloody likely!

-=Vel=-

[Garth Vader]

Thanks for all this Vel. I have Imperialism and wanted Imp2 when it came out but couldn't get it at the time and couldn't find it later. I DL'd it last night and will try it out this weekend if I have time. I have been playing EU now which is the exact same game concept.

It soulds really similar to the original. Did you ever play that? I liked the fairly complex economics of the original, but found the combat boring at the end, especially trying to assault capital provinces (which had smaller areas for the attacker to deploy but regular sized defender spaces, you can figure out what happened with that setup )

[Velociryx]

Hiya Garth! Nope….I’ve not played Imperialism I, although I downloaded it at the same time as I got the sequel…it too, looks really good, and I like the fact that the games take place in very different eras….I’m looking forward to playing around with it sometime this weekend as well.

And you’re right about combat. Very favorable to the defender….in fact, the game described above has come to pretty nearly a stalemate. I can’t make any further headway in the face of those cursed level three forts (which, by the way, I have in EVERY province I control!). I’m just not sure how to even plan for such an assault. If I go with lots of artillery to batter down those thick walls, his fast troops ride out and cut me to ribbons cos my arty is unprotected. An infantry assault is just patently suicidal, and if I use mostly fast troops, I can get in combat range fast enough to avoid getting blasted off the map in a round or two, but the damage just isn’t there.

After six(!) unsuccessful attacks on Madrid, I finally just made peace with Spain. The war with England saw similar results. I got a toehold, but could advance no further. A paltry two units, when accompanied by those big siege guns in level three forts was enough to turn back my best armies.

I thought about making a number of purely suicide armies, sending them in to kill SOMETHING, and then, when the province was weakened sufficiently, send in my good troops for the kill, but that’s a HUGE PIA….surely there’s a better way, but as of last night, I’ve not been able to find it.

So….we’re churning along. Portugal ended up nixing their alliance with me, but Sweden immediately moved in to fill the gap. I had money coming out of my ears, so I wound up giving grants to both England (after accepting their peace proposal) and Spain, so now everybody is getting along again, and I think we’ve reached the point where combat, if it happens at all, will be a matter of letting one nation do the grunt work, and then swooping in with a superior force to take those costly gains (and tossing up a wampum big fort immediately to prevent the same from happening to you). At that rate, it could be the “Mission Year” 2215 before I have enough European territories for the win.

I have the game saved off at the point just after I captured my very first New World colony, and I’m thinking about going back and playing again from there….there are a number of things I’d have done differently in hindsight, and I’m curious to see how a different approach would play out.

One thing I know for sure, any combats I want to do had better damn well be done before anyone researches “Advanced Fortifications,” cos after that….::shiver:: I fear those battlement guns, and worse, there’s no “sweet spot” you can knock the walls down on in a level three fort. It’s not so bad on the smaller forts, cos you can just bunch your arty up at the top or bottom of the screen, out of the range of the immobile fort guns and blow a hole in the wall, then send your guys in. Easy. Not so with the big forts….UGH!

Anyway, I’ve been very curious about Europa Universails….from the screen shots and buzz I’ve heard, it sounds like the perfect game, and certainly pleasing to the eye….what say you….should I take the plunge and make the purchase?

-=Vel=-

[Garth Vader]

If I remember correctly for assaulting heavy fortresses in imp I sent a "softening up" army in first. It had some fast troops that would move first and soak up the arty fire then I would sent in the mobile arty to pick off their heavy arty. One of the best uses I found for generals was to move first and take a heavy arty hit, or two

You'd probably lose the whole force, but if you could take out their big guns you could go in next turn with your own big guns and take the walls down.

The method I preferred was to take the capital province first, or at least real early in the war so the bulk of there forces were elsewhere. I don't know if units are close enough in the two games for any of this to imp2.

As for EU, I recommend it. I will mention that it's focus is different. It's more of a history game, the economics and military are abstracted a bit more than you would probably like. But I really like the historical feel and the diplomacy. Colonization and exploration is fun too!

[Velociryx]

::groan:: Yeah, that’s what I was afraid of (regarding late-game attacking, I mean). But, it is exceedingly realistic, IMO….the defensive advantages are huge, as they should be….still, from an attack perspective, it means a real “meat-grinder” approach. UGH.

And, very good to hear about EU….I think I’ll have to mosey down to one of our game shops and see if I can scare up a copy! The graphics are beautiful, and some of the mods I’ve read about for it sound fantastic! (and, I suppose I can live with abstracted economics….being that it’s a real time game, but you’re right…one of the main reasons I’m so jazzed up about Imp and Imp2 is the sheer strength of the economic model….well, that and the fact that the game is almost entirely strategic in nature….practically pure metagame, and an excellent game to practice that very thing on, actually….good stuff!

-=Vel=-