First Twenty Technologies

[jpk]

In another thread Sten Sture commented about the big jump in the amount of science needed after the twentieth technology. It occurred to me that perhaps we could develop streamlined technology trees for the first twenty advances.

Different situations may call for different trees. For example: all alone on a really small island; alone on a small island; alone on a large continent; share a continent with distant civilizations; and share a continent with nearby civilizations.

In any event here is my list for all alone on a large continent.

1. Alphabet
2. Code Of Laws
3. Ceremonial Burial
4. Monarchy (*)
5. Bronze Working
6. Currency
7. Trade (**)
8. Pottery
9. Writing
10. Literacy
11. Mysticism
12. Philosophy
13. Horseback Riding
14. Polytheism
15. Monotheism (***)
16. Masonry
17. Mathematics
18. Astronomy
19. The Republic
20. Map Making

Items with stars in parentheses indicate minor goals. One star indicates the first goal, Monarchy, two stars indicates the second goal, Trade, and three stars indicates the third goal, Monotheism. Feel free to make comments, disparaging or otherwise. The advances are probably not in the order they would be researched.

[Strategist]

Thank you. Thank you very much

That is propably the MOST useful help I could ever get from here! al lthe other hints and tips were such a BS fro me. but this one...

BTW, you should have noticed that on higher difficulty level you aren't able to research some of the techs that you should theoretically be able to... is that already included in your system?

[Ming]

Well, what is listed would be his prefered order... But you are right. Sometimes, you can't pick what you want. When that happens, just pick something higher up on your list that you can choose. Like, when it won't let you take monarchy, just take bronze

Now granted, the path he is showing is the old happiness wonders route. If you are racing for invention or democracy or feudalism so you can build those wonders, your path would be different after Philosophy

It is always a good idea to look into the future, and plan what your goal is. That way you can avoid taking a science that might sound good to you at the time, but really only slows you down

[jpk]

Strategist, I'm glad you liked the list. As mentioned sometime you can't get what you want.

I should mention that I play SP on large multicontinent worlds and hope to get a large technological lead, mainly throught trade, before I start fighting the AI civilizations.

If you happen to discover that the Mongols, Vikings, and Greeks are your next door neighbors then you might well choose a different set of technologies.

My idea was to develop lists of things that beginning Diety players could do in various starting situations. Hopefully others will add their lists. I tried to create the list so that others could cut and paste the list into their own comment and then edit my list as they see fit.

[Sten Sture]

Streamlining tech trees is a favorite hobby of mine. (you know you are addicted when...)

My basic strategy for what will be available is that direct prerequisites generally don't allow their following tech. That may be completely wrong, but it is the way that I have been playing for a while and it seems to work okay for me.

Here is a bee-line to Demo for the Statue and switching to commie or fundy. Techs in italics are not directly required. I only go for Pottery if I am trying to build the Hanging Gardens. An alternate would be War Code in the six spot and Iron Working for Mathmatics. This would enable Gunpowder as tech 21.

Alpha
Burial
Code of Laws
Bronze
Monarchy (I always use these first 5)

Pottery
Currency
Writing
Trade
Horseback riding

Masonry
Wheel
Literacy
Construction
Republic

Engineering
Banking
Invention
Mathmatics (or anything else)
Democracy

[Sten Sture]

The big jump is actually after the 19th tech - so I should modify my above post to remove pottery inorder to get demo as #19.

Here is the second study that CtG did on the subject for two different map sizes.

Further down the thread I listed the cumulative totals (in an easy to read format - NOT)
http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/HT...tml?date=19:10

[Strategist]

well, having thought about this a bit better...

I like building the Pyramids, which could become quite hard after that plan...

read my thread and post there, folks!

[Novi Nomad]

Sten Sture,

I checked out that thread, and the conclusion seemed to be that the amount of beakers needed was actually dependant not only on the number of techs that your civ had researched and the size of the map, but also was based on the number of techs that the AI possessed. In other words, the number of beakers is going to be different for every game, making the number of beakers required list virtually useless - although it does give you a kind of overview of when the big leaps occur I guess.

I'm suprised that map making is so far down on the lists submitted so far. It's been my experience that trade is almost worthless when you send caravans to your own cities on the same continent. I hate making the detour to pick it up, but I usually try to get some triremes going ASAP after getting trade.

The early game selections are pretty much going to be dictated by which wonders you want to build. On higher levels, to be sure you're going to get a particular wonder, you almost have to make a bee-line for the tech that allows it. I'm sure that I've seen a thread somewhere discussing which wonders were considered "must-haves". Perhaps looking up that thread would also be of help to novice players.

I tend to have more problems with research paths in the mid-to late game after most of the wonders have been built. I find that sometimes I'm a little aimless in my selections at that point because I'm not going for a specific wonder so much as I am looking for something to help me with what is happening in the game at the time. I probably need to be more focused on a strategy for this part of the game.

This is an interesting topic. Hopefully we'll see some other opinions on early tech paths.

[inca911]

Well, this is a similar topic so I'll put it here. Have you ever wanted to know how the AI decides what tech to research? Well each civ has either a Militaristic, Neutral or Civilized tech strategy which the game tells you. Here is what the AI will research in order of importance for each of those strategies. Of the available techs, the AI will research the highest value tech next. This table should help you determine which AI is a threat to beat you to Philosophy, or the science that enables specific wonders. Based on your opponents, you can determine if any AI is going to research Theology anytime soon so you may be able to postpone building Bach's for a long time depending on the attitudes of the AIs you are playing. It is interesting to see the high importance on Mobile warfare for all AI attitudes, perhaps Sun Tzu's is less valuable than is generally believed? Also the great difference in the value of Theology for the Civilized AI is very large.
NEUTRAL Tech Importance (not Militaristic or Scientific)
Gunpowder 8
Mobile Warfare 8
Conscription 7
Automobile 6
Bronze Working 6
Industrialization 6
Invention 6
Map Making 6
Metallurgy 6
Navigation 6
Nuclear Fission 6
Philosophy 6
Railroad 6
Rocketry 6
Tactics 6
Alphabet 5
Ceremonial Burial 5
Chemistry 5
Combined Arms 5
Combustion 5
Communism 5
Democracy 5
Explosives 5
Iron Working 5
Leadership 5
Literacy 5
Mass Production 5
Monarchy 5
Monotheism 5
Radio 5
The Republic 5
Robotics 5
University 5
Advanced Flight 4
Astronomy 4
Atomic Theory 4
Banking 4
Bridge Building 4
Chivalry 4
Code of Laws 4
Computers 4
Construction 4
The Corporation 4
Currency 4
Economics 4
Electricity 4
Electronics 4
Engineering 4
Feudalism 4
Flight 4
Guerrilla Warfare 4
Horseback Riding 4
Labor Union 4
The Laser 4
Machine Tools 4
Magnetism 4
Masonry 4
Mathematics 4
Medicine 4
Miniaturization 4
Mysticism 4
Physics 4
Plastics 4
Plumbing 4
Polytheism 4
Pottery 4
Refining 4
Sanitation 4
Seafaring 4
Space Flight 4
Steam Engine 4
Steel 4
Superconductor 4
Theory of Gravity 4
Trade 4
Warrior Code 4
The Wheel 4
Writing 4
Amphibious Warfare 3
Environmentalism 3
Fundamentalism 3
Fusion Power 3
Genetic Engineering 3
Nuclear Power 3
Refrigeration 3
Stealth 3
Theology 3
Espionage 2
Recycling 2
Future Technology 1

MILITARISTIC Tech Importance
Gunpowder 10
Mobile Warfare 9
Conscription 8
Metallurgy 8
Nuclear Fission 8
Rocketry 8
Automobile 7
Bronze Working 7
Map Making 7
Navigation 7
Robotics 7
Tactics 7
Advanced Flight 6
Chemistry 6
Chivalry 6
Combined Arms 6
Combustion 6
Industrialization 6
Invention 6
Iron Working 6
Leadership 6
Machine Tools 6
Radio 6
Railroad 6
Amphibious Warfare 5
Atomic Theory 5
Ceremonial Burial 5
Communism 5
Explosives 5
Feudalism 5
Flight 5
Fundamentalism 5
Horseback Riding 5
Labor Union 5
Magnetism 5
Mass Production 5
Mathematics 5
Philosophy 5
Physics 5
Stealth 5
Steam Engine 5
Steel 5
Warrior Code 5
The Wheel 5
Alphabet 4
Bridge Building 4
Construction 4
The Corporation 4
Democracy 4
Electricity 4
Engineering 4
The Laser 4
Medicine 4
Monarchy 4
Monotheism 4
Mysticism 4
Plumbing 4
Polytheism 4
Refining 4
The Republic 4
Theory of Gravity 4
University 4
Astronomy 3
Banking 3
Code of Laws 3
Computers 3
Currency 3
Economics 3
Electronics 3
Espionage 3
Fusion Power 3
Guerrilla Warfare 3
Literacy 3
Masonry 3
Miniaturization 3
Nuclear Power 3
Plastics 3
Pottery 3
Seafaring 3
Space Flight 3
Superconductor 3
Environmentalism 2
Refrigeration 2
Sanitation 2
Trade 2
Writing 2
Genetic Engineering 1
Recycling 1
Theology 1
Future Technology 1
CIVILIZED Tech Importance:
Literacy 7
Mobile Warfare 7
Philosophy 7
Alphabet 6
Conscription 6
Democracy 6
Gunpowder 6
Industrialization 6
Invention 6
Monarchy 6
Monotheism 6
Railroad 6
The Republic 6
Sanitation 6
Trade 6
University 6
Writing 6
Astronomy 5
Automobile 5
Banking 5
Bronze Working 5
Ceremonial Burial 5
Code of Laws 5
Communism 5
Computers 5
Currency 5
Economics 5
Electronics 5
Explosives 5
Genetic Engineering 5
Guerrilla Warfare 5
Map Making 5
Masonry 5
Mass Production 5
Miniaturization 5
Navigation 5
Plastics 5
Pottery 5
Seafaring 5
Space Flight 5
Superconductor 5
Tactics 5
Theology 5
Bridge Building 4
Chemistry 4
Combined Arms 4
Combustion 4
Construction 4
The Corporation 4
Electricity 4
Engineering 4
Environmentalism 4
Iron Working 4
The Laser 4
Leadership 4
Medicine 4
Metallurgy 4
Mysticism 4
Nuclear Fission 4
Plumbing 4
Polytheism 4
Radio 4
Refining 4
Refrigeration 4
Rocketry 4
Theory of Gravity 4
Atomic Theory 3
Feudalism 3
Flight 3
Fusion Power 3
Horseback Riding 3
Labor Union 3
Magnetism 3
Mathematics 3
Nuclear Power 3
Physics 3
Recycling 3
Robotics 3
Steam Engine 3
Steel 3
Warrior Code 3
The Wheel 3
Advanced Flight 2
Chivalry 2
Machine Tools 2
Amphibious Warfare 1
Espionage 1
Fundamentalism 1
Stealth 1
Future Technology 1

[Strategist]

very good! really!

everyone can see that by looking in the rules.txt

but must have been hard work to copy and paste that!

[geofelt]

Just how big is the jump in research around tech 20? I may have to be more careful about trading techs early.
Most lists start with alphabet, but I think it should start with ceremonial burial. First of all, it gives you something useful to build. Notice that three of the four monarchy techs are in the social category. Only alphabet is in the academic category. I think there may be a rule limiting how many techs in a category can be researched consecutively.

[Chainsaw]

Hm... Pottery on eight? When I choose to go for tech advance I usually go for the pyramids. No maintenance for the granaries while your cities bloom rapidly. My second WoW is Mike´s chapel to stop the riots. I always regarded pottery as one of the most delaying techs at the beginning when playing the strategy mentioned by you.
On the other hand, the AI starts building both the colossus and the pyramids quite early, so you have to be quick or you have to select SSC vs quick population growth. In that case, pottery is useful.

[kcbob]

You would have thought that I would have begun used this bit of advice much earlier than I actually did. That advice is... "use the GOAL button" when offered the menu of advances from which you have to choose one.

I'll have a particular advance in mind (I think ASTRONOMY is one) and would never in a thousand years think that MASONRY would be required for it were it not for the "GOAL" button. If you get in the habit of using it, then just priortize all the advances available in the game, at any given time decide which one you want, and research appropriately.

Sorry if this is obvious to everyone else.

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[Novi Nomad]

Geofelt,

According to the chart in the thread that Sten Sture posted a link to, the 18th tech requires 540 total beakers. The 19th tech requires 589. The 20th tech jumps to 820 beakers. Again, this isn't exactly accurate since the actual number of beakers will vary depending on several factors in the game, but it does show you where some of the big leaps occur.

[Sten Sture]

quote: Originally posted by Novi Nomad on 08-03-2000 02:07 PM ...the conclusion seemed to be that the amount of beakers needed was actually dependant not only on the number of techs that your civ had researched and the size of the map, but also was based on the number of techs that the AI possessed. In other words, the number of beakers is going to be different for every game, making the number of beakers required list virtually useless - although it does give you a kind of overview of when the big leaps occur I guess.

Yes, your point about where the large changes occur in the beaker requirements is the most important issue. However if you generally play on the same size map, the early beaker amounts will be surprisingly the same for most of the first 20 techs - regardless of your relative standing. You just can't build up a 15 tech advantage in the first 17 techs - even the AI does better than that. Check it out sometime with your own early games; I think you will find the information somewhat better than worthless.

Map Making is obviously a great early tech for intercontinental trade. Adam Smith and others have posted their reasons for self trading early in the game, but I do like to get Map Making early for a couple of SSC trade routes. On a list like jpk's I would move it to around 10th. But if I am playing a modified ICS style, and have room to expand - I might not care that much.

[Tom DeMille]

Are free starting techs counted towards the magic 20 number? I would imagine not.

[jpk]

Sten Sture:

Thank you for your bee-line to Democracy list. While prerequisite advances occur at higher levels on my list, I did not write my list with the idea that that was the order in which they should be chosen. Wasn't that organized. Your comments about the importance of map making for trade should not be discounted by any player who values trade.

[geofelt]

A piece of advice:
When in doubt on what tech to research next, pick one that lets you build a wonder.

[cavebear]

Sten Sture - But wouldn't the techs you have to give the AI be the efficient ones for getting to Monarchy? Perhaps you have gotten past that and are giving them the more advanced ones to load them down, though. It's an interesting idea...

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[Sten Sture]

Starting techs are not included - they are totally free.

Techs from huts, other civs, Philo and Darwin are included in your totals. Hence the importance of starting techs and getting Monarchy before you load up on huts.

BTW - you can't edit in totally free starting techs to a scenario.

(a rather devilish tactic against the AI is to give them techs before they get Monarchy - you can end up keeping them in Despo almost indefinately; it is rather difficult to get 800 beakers in Despo)

[Caesar]

My first 20 techs are for the most part the same. Although certain situations require me to get map making sooner, also I will usually research pottery asap if I have a good production city for hanging gardens, if you can get this it is worth the time! Trade... its one of my early goals, but if there are no good trade partners I may 'avoid' it for a while. Sometimes republic is necessary other times not so. Astronomy and Mathematics can be put off and traded for wheel/construction, if situation makes it necessary. But otherwise its good.

[tonic]

quote: Originally posted by cavebear on 08-04-2000 05:51 PM Sten Sture - But wouldn't the techs you have to give the AI be the efficient ones for getting to Monarchy? Perhaps you have gotten past that and are giving them the more advanced ones to load them down, though.

It's both a case of loading them down with advanced techs and the fact that they also may be having extant techs that lead elsewhere in the techtree eg Horseback Riding, Pottery and Warrior Code, the ones to avoid when trying to get to Monarchy ASAP. It's of course the basic tactic in OCC to refuse exchanges involving these last-named techs and just offer your advanced tech as gifts instead.

[Smash]

oops wrong thread


[This message has been edited by Smash (edited August 07, 2000).]