Anybody planning NOT to buy Civ3? - Page 3

lord of the mark · June 27, 2001, 16:55

i lean toward buying it eventually

From what i have seen they seem to be working really hard to make a game that goes beyond civ 2.5, but is still very civish, and will not alienate those who dont want a completely new game. I expect a hit.

Nonetheless i cant see buying it right away. Unlike some here I buy only a few games a year, and ive got a queu of planned purchases. I prefer to buy games at 6 months to a year out - why pay $45 US for something untested that still has bugs, when I can spend $25 for something widely reviewed, patched, etc.

Also Ive got the nagging suspicion I will need a hardware upgrade for civ3

and ive only recently started playing scenarios, and im quite enjoying that.

LOTM

lord of the mark · June 27, 2001, 17:17

Quote:

Originally posted by yin26
It's a slippery slope to try to convince your wife that computer games are anything other than a waste of time, primarily for two reasons:

1) It's not time you spent with HER (though some couples actually play MP and LAN games together, if you can imagine that!);

2) Given #1, there's absolutely nothing in it for HER, even in terms of her husband's career/education/social development, etc.

Having said that, I think certain games absolutely CAN be a mental exercise. Chess, for example, is supposed to make various thought processes far more acute, so why not some computer games (I don't think FPSs fall into that category, but who knows?)?

Of course, you can play a game simply to become a vegetable. But I rather enjoy looking at various game mechanics and asking: "How close is this to real life? Can I draw parallels? Or is this just a fun puzzle to tweak with certain predictions in mind?" All of that is higher thinking in one form or another, and the fact that is comes in a FUN manner should in no way lessen its value.

But human beings (and, historically, the United States) in general has always looked at entertainment as anti-intellectual. Do you remember the Maypole of Merrymount by Hawthorne? In that, he writes about the early English settlers who dared celebrate in the forest by dancing around a Maypole as being harshly persecuted by Cotton Mather for being "lawless and lewd."

That same basic view is held of PC gamers...as slackers "wasting" precious time and resources better spent on something "meaningful." But more and more, particularly with games like Virtual U., games are being viewed as a potential tool for learning! In the case of Virtual U., a number of universities are even using the game for staff / student training.

What does this say of Civ? Well, I can pretty much tell you that if France had used Civ 2 to develop its foreign relations, we'd all be swimming in a sea of nukes by now. Oh, and there'd be a lot more cities. I mean, a LOT more.

Interesting - i guess im both a game player and a tad of a puritan.
I enjoy reading history and my game playing is an extension of that interest - which is why i dont have much truck with the "its only a game" approach - civ2 is immensely satisfying as an historical game - no, not as a recreation of what happened where and when, but as a riff on great historical themes and conflicts -
the cunning of reason in history, the conflict driven pressure for technological progress and political-social change, the emergence of social forces from their apparent opposites (monotheism out of polytheism, philosophy out of mysticism, environmentalism out of industrialization, communism out of capitalism, tyrannical govt forms out of democracy) the interplay of foreign policy and domestic politics, etc.

Ive reached the point in playing (mediocre deity player) where the details of gamey things - fairly artifical strategies, micromanagement, etc overwhelm the historical "fun". At this point playing the original game i no longer learn about history, only about playing Civ. Thats the time to turn to scenarios, other games, and, yes, reading books.

LOTM

yin26 · June 28, 2001, 01:17

It's fascinating to me how varied people's interest in computer games can be. All I know is that as I become busier, I demand more from my games in terms of letting me get straight to the strategy and not fiddle with slow load times, horrible manuals, non-sensical gameplay, etc. I want to get lost in games...not hope my games get lost.

But when I was younger, I'd pretty much suffer through anything to get to the "good stuff" in a game. Of course, that was before game companies had the option to send the finished product over the telephone AFTER they had your money.

Oh, there were returns aplenty back then. Perhaps 2 out of 10 times, the game wouldn't even work on my system. Back it went for an exchange. Now that I'm in a foreign country that doesn't support such a liberal policy, I'm far more careful...alas, the joys of a bygone era.

dennis580 · June 28, 2001, 15:42

I have to totally disagree with everything Yen has said. As mor and more information has come out over the last several motnhs by interest in Civ III has gone thru the roof.

With the complex bargaining table, and with a diplomacy that looks to murder Civ II's, and with 16 playable Civs(all they need to do is nail the AI. This game looks like it will go toe to toe this holiday season with MGS2 for GREATEST GAME EVER MADE.

Eroberer · June 28, 2001, 16:10

I'll have to see reviews, first. I can't stand more bad AI, and none of my ideas will ever get implemented I'm sure. If I'm still in college, I'll likely wait till the end of the year, and get it at a, hopefully, reduced price.

Rasputin · June 28, 2001, 16:16

i will probaly just burn a copy at first till i decide how good it is...

Colon™ · June 28, 2001, 17:10

Yin, I sort of have your view. When I read something about history, or international politics, I get an urge to recreate it, sometimes with civ, sometimes with imperialism. Then I get frustrated because even Imperialism is so weak at recreating it, mostly because of the dumb AI.
So to complement Erober, the game will have to have a really good AI too because I think that great new features will be pointless if the AI can't handle them.

Or maybe I just should search for like minded people and mp more often.

Rasputin · June 28, 2001, 19:03

Quote:

Originally posted by Colon
Or maybe I just should search for like minded people and mp more often.

definatly the best option i would recommend heading straight down to MP section of forums and join a game,

marcuspeddle · June 28, 2001, 22:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Rasputin
i will probaly just burn a copy at first till i decide how good it is...

I don't know if you were joking or not but I don't agree with illegal copying of software even for evaluation purposes. The money we pay to the software companies goes to employees' salaries and research and development. There's a software company here in Korea that makes a great word processor but they almost went out of business a couple of years ago because of pirating. I would hate to see that happen to Firaxis or any other great software company.

Narck · June 28, 2001, 22:50

As usual, I will buy immediately, only to be disappointed later with the quality of the game (in 80% of the cases). Hopefully, Civ 3 will not disappoint.

Theben · June 29, 2001, 01:16

The timing of this thread seems typical. I've noticed that just before each info-release from Firaxis people start posting their fears about civ3 and then after the release they dry up. Not that I'm assusing Yin of this, because he's had this opinion for awhile now.

I do agree that it's strange Firaxis hasn't released more info, and I'm wondering if we've seen everything that will be new. Even so, I'll probably buy the game right away. I've invested a lot of free time into this game to take a casual attitude towards it now.

Besides, I'm still finding civ2 to be entertaining. Many other games have been placed and deleted from my harddrive, but only civ2 remains. I'm just starting to really appreciate scenarios, and for those looking for a challenge, try the "super-deity" levels! Head on over to the "civ2-general" section if you don't know what I'm talking about. It's the 1st time in years my jaw hit the floor re: civ2.

yin26 · June 29, 2001, 02:11

Quote:

Not that I'm assusing Yin of this, because he's had this opinion for awhile now.

Hey, Theben!

No, I assure you the timing of my thread has no relation to Firaxis' announcements (or lack of). As you said, my opinion has been pretty rock solid for 3 years...I'm quite happy if Firaxis keeps all the good info to itself until it can confidently and fully explain features, etc. This "Well, we don't know how it will work yet, but BE HAPPY" stuff is actually quite unproductive in my book.

On the other hand, I think if they had anything really interesting to say, they would have. We've likely been told most of the important changes or some form of them anyway. If I'm wrong, and if Civ 3 is released with some surprising and ground-breaking elements, I'll be the first to happily give the game a chance.

Colon™ · June 29, 2001, 08:32

Rasputin, "definatly the best option i would recommend heading straight down to MP section of forums and join a game"

I used to do this for a while, but the costs of it were prohibitive and I hated the slowness and connection problems.
I have DSL now so the financial costs aren't really an issue anymore. I'll see whether it will function better technically...

Theben, I didn't really had many expectations before they released more details anyway, I learned my lesson after SMAC.
Besides, perhaps the reason fears dry up is because who had them simply left. (I did)

KrazyHorse · June 29, 2001, 11:02

Quote:

Originally posted by Anatolia
I don't know if you were joking or not but I don't agree with illegal copying of software even for evaluation purposes. The money we pay to the software companies goes to employees' salaries and research and development. There's a software company here in Korea that makes a great word processor but they almost went out of business a couple of years ago because of pirating. I would hate to see that happen to Firaxis or any other great software company.

Lighten up. Software piracy is like speeding; everybody does it, and everybody looks the other way, as long as it's not too flagrant. I'm going to buy Civ III because I want to support the people who made it, and because for a game like this I'm willing to pay $50 for the box, and the manual, and the lack of hassles from pirated software. At the same time, Rasputin, you've spent so much time on the Civ 3 message boards that I'm surprised at you. Anyone who spends as much time here as you do should be willing to shell out for what's got to be their most anticipated game of the year (or the last three years, for that matter).

SerapisIV · June 29, 2001, 11:13

As much as I don't want to admit it, KH is right, everyone I know is into pirating software, whether its games, M$ products, or MP3 (same deal). I agree as well, I want to support Firaxis, also I want a mint copy of the game, one that will be upgradeable and patchable, something that is questionable with pirated copies.

When I lived in the dorms the last few years, there were some kids from Hong Kong and such Pacific Rim cities, they'd open up large 200cd CaseLogic books, filled to the brim with CDRs of every possible software you could think of, all with keys too. Pirating in the western world is the least of Firaxis' problem, I guarantee Asian and Eastern European piracy is 100x worse.

yin26 · June 29, 2001, 19:22

For me, I only d/l illegally when I'm not sure about the game or the people reviewing it. Then, if I like the game, I buy it...otherwise the hard drive is freed up. A good demo can do that "legally" as well. I bought Tropico after playing the generous demo.

However, I never have and encourage people NOT to simply use WAREZ for stuff you actually like and use.

Sabre2th · June 30, 2001, 00:02

Let me clarify my earlier post: I will be buying civ3 as soon as I can IF it supports win2000. Otherwise, I'll hafta either change to win98 or miss out on civ3

Rasputin · June 30, 2001, 02:00

ok ok , i was sort of joking... Actually i bought Civ 2 and then bought civ 2 MPGE .. i also own a few other games legally.. If i paly them oftem i tend to buy them, but i will defiently be hiring the game for the first few months to make sure i like it before shelling out anothe $100 to buy a civ expansion ....

But if it is good i will buy it eventualyl.... especially if they include free upgrades as part or ownership of registered people.. I hate buying software and then being told i have to buy updates as in Civ 2 to Civ 2 MPGE ...!!!!

Adagio · June 30, 2001, 09:20

I'm about 99% sure I'll buy the game as soon as it's posible to buy it here where I come from (Denmark), the 1% unsureness is because if I have heard the game "kills" the computer or something like that,

then I proberly wont buy it, it could also be because I'm out of money the day they will release the game

Sabre2th · June 30, 2001, 09:24

Quote:

Originally posted by ADG
.....I have heard the game "kills" the computer or something ......

What??

Adagio · June 30, 2001, 09:29

I don't know how to say it english, let's try it again then

I've heard before about games which makes the computer unable to start normally, so they had to format the HD and reinstall Windows again, if that's the case I surely wont buy it

Cube · June 30, 2001, 11:54

I'M MOST DEFINETELY NOT BUYING IT IF IT DOESN"T HAVE FUTURE GAMEPLAY LIKE CTP AND CTP2. Yes i did like those games and they were my first civ games. i didn't really get interested until i got to the modern and later the future ages. I always imagined Civ III to be like CTP but about 3 to 4 times better and of course with future gameplay. I would buy CTP 3 if it ever came out.

Adagio · June 30, 2001, 13:29

I would be nice to have future gameplay in Civ III, but Personally I think Civ II is better than any CTP power game (2 bad it wont run on my PC

)

Cube · June 30, 2001, 13:48

I'm sure it will be better, but I'm still not buying it. besides i never said it won't be better did I. I'm just not buying it because it doesn't have future gameplay.

yin26 · July 1, 2001, 11:25

So far some interesting comments. I must say that from the looks of things, Civ3 will have its fair share of "Buy it no matter what" people, but I'm genuinely surprised at the number of people with a more cautious tone.

Has the gaming community matured or soured? Frankly, there are just too many good games to play these days for a company NOT to go that extra mile...even with Civ? Yes, perhaps, even with Civ.

Adm.Naismith · July 2, 2001, 04:27

Yin, to be fair it must be know as a "social reaction" (or any more appropriate word

) that when someone well know speak, he/she act as a "catalyzator" so some people are "attracted" and agree with him/her.

I mean, opinion about Civ III can't exist in vacuum

but someone must have the role to evidence the two main parties: enthusiast and cautious or any other definition you care to use.

Changing the famous quote: "blame any of them, the real game will pick the good from the bad ones"

(p.s. added note: Oh my God, hope I haven't messed up my post with another try of adding humor using my mediocre english

)

yin26 · July 2, 2001, 09:28

Actually, I very much enjoyed your joke!