captured cities

[Juggernaut]

if you capture another civ´s city in civ 2, it goes civil disorder the first round, and after that it works normal again and might even become MORE happier than when it was before you invaded it!

completely unrealistic.

i mean, one thing if the city´s original civ was a despotic disaster but anyway...

when you invade a city you should have a few options:

1) keep it under siege.
let the city´s pop become slaves and make a lot of money. should require lotsa military units.

2) try to assimilate the city to your own civ.
this should take a lot of time, and ABSOLUTELY NOT a single round! since a majority of the civ´s pop is another culture you should gave the option to start an "assimilate program" or something, investing money in entertainers and blending them with your own culture. after ie. 500 years, the people have forgotten their background, and the city is truely yours...

til then, the city´s original civ has the opportunity to affect it through spies and propaganda, making it remember it´s roots...

a factor should be the geographical distance. if invading a city on the other side of earth, it should be much more complicated to assimilate than if it was your neighbour civ.

the more the civ´s culture, government, religion is unlike your´s - the harder to convert them...

[Adagio]

I think they are making something like that, since they now have culture. I don't know how the civs culture is made, but I think it might be something with a lot of numbers, like a city's culture is (for example) 60. When you have taken over that city the city looses, let's say, 5% of their own culture every turn while your own culture grows in the city! The more of their own culture they have in your city, the bigger chance for a revolt and such.

This means if you take over a city with 1 soldier and the city has a lot of culture, there is much chance for the city to "reuturn" to their own country again, because they kill the other soldier

[Inverse Icarus]

yea, i read somewhere that every population point has a nationality, as in they are GERMAN or AMERICAN. if the GERMANS take over an AMERICAN city, with 12 AMERICAN pop points, the city has a chance of revolting back to the american side.

not much has been said on how to prevent it.

i assume you could:
[list=1][*]IMPROVE the city, build temples and whatnot, to make the inhabitants think your better for them.[*]REPRESS the city with a strong military presence.[/list=1]

[Adagio]

I hope it will be something like that

[Juggernaut]

yeah, and as time goes by, some of your original germans moves to the new city, mix with the civ´s pop, have babies, and the city becomes american-german.

just like in south america and mexico...

[Adagio]

It would be nice if we could (Like in the game Tropico) see how many people are Brazilians and how many are Zulus, or at least have roots from that civ

[DarkCloud]

For the unhappy captured city the game should have the following factors to determine revolt:

Base Happiness in old Country:
Base Happiness in new Country:
Army Presence: (in a newly conquered city for 6 turns, the army presence makes them UNHAPPY)

[Juggernaut]

they are quite unhappy to be captured either way, i think. to keep from revolting, military is needed, which ofcourse will increase unhappiness even more.

i´ve just read that every city will have a nationality, like uberkrux said, and that every city´s pop points will have one as well. excellent news. until the city´s pop´s original nationality become in minority, it should require military presence. or something like that.

[DarkCloud]

But If they were unhappy under the previous government- and the new government taxed them lightly... then wouldn't they be happier under the new civilization?

[Juggernaut]

no captured city has ever been happy through earth´s history. people always feel the desire to rejoin with their original ethnic background.

but indeed, a better gov than their original should make them more content and less willing to revolt.

i think the new religion aspect should have great impact on this one. if a christian normal-size city gets captured by buddhists, it should require like 3 armies present to keep them calm.

[DarkCloud]

But armies would ALARM the people- they would SENSE OPPRESSION and want to REVOLT... would they not?

The armies could forcibly put down uprisings... but they would not make the people want to 'become' members of the new civ.

How about this idea:

You can slide how ethnically inclined your civ is:

1
Highly Nationalistic
(+5 bonus to every thing)

2
(+4 bonus everything)

3,4 (etc.)

5
Tolerating of others
(+0/-0 bonus to everything) [accept immigrants]

6
(Cities assimilate into your civ 10% faster)

7
(Cities assimilate into your civ 30% faster)

8
(Cities assimilate into your civ 50% faster)

9
(Cities assimilate into your civ 65% faster)

10
Highly Accepting!
(Cities assimilate into your civ 75% faster)

[Juggernaut]

But armies would ALARM the people- they would SENSE OPPRESSION and want to REVOLT... would they not?

you think they wouldn´t if the city was empty of military? ofcourse people would feel even more opressed and unhappy, but that´s the only alternative.

the scale is good, but "highly nationalistic" could be swapped to "highly cultural". take sweden for example, we have almost no culture and is one of the world´s most immigrant-friendly countries.

how about this:

y = (Ct/Cv) x (Cp/Mu5) x (F/Cp3) x Cs
500

the minimum/maximum limit should be 5 and 1500 years

y = assimilation time in years
Cv= invading civ´s cultural average
Ct= invaded city´s cultural points
Cp = invaded city´s pop points
Mu = number of military units present
F = food surplus points
Cs = cultural similarity, digit between 2 to -2 depending on how similar religion, opinions, ethnic race, former style of gov etc, is.

note that the y represent time in years, not turns. this is

a) realistic
b) makes it harder to conquest as the time flies and we approaches modern, civilized times. just like it should be

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by uncle_funk
yeah, and as time goes by, some of your original germans moves to the new city, mix with the civ´s pop, have babies, and the city becomes american-german.

just like in south america and mexico...

South America and Mexico? The Europeans killed off the natives, not joined with them. The example you're looking for is probably more along the lines of the Romans in Iberia and Germany.

[Juggernaut]

about 10% of mexicos population is white. and many are mestisians. where would they have come from?

and why the heck do they speak portugese in brazil?

of course people mix up a little, the europeans had colonies there for centuries.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by uncle_funk
about 10% of mexicos population is white. and many are mestisians. where would they have come from?

and why the heck do they speak portugese in brazil?

of course people mix up a little, the europeans had colonies there for centuries.

The reason that they speak portuguese in Brazil is because Brazil is the easternmost point in South America.

Figure it out for yourself.

[Juggernaut]

then they should speak japanese in alaska. know why? north americas westernmost point!

and there we see how giving such arguments are...

[KrazyHorse]

Try again. I'm serious.

[KrazyHorse]

I'll give you another hint: the reason Brazilians speak Portuguese has a great deal to with the reason everybody else in South America speaks Spanish.

[Juggernaut]

don´t get your point, does people on the other sides of an ocean automatically speak the same language?

you don´t think it has to do with brazil being a former portugese colony? i would.

[KrazyHorse]

That's the obvious part...why was Brazil a Portuguese colony?

[Juggernaut]

like the most reasons i guess, i´m not an expert. exploatation, slaves etc.

that´s not the point here. the point is that when a civ invades another civ, the people automatically mix up. so even in this case.

[TechWins]

That's the obvious part...why was Brazil a Portuguese colony?

Oooh oooh oooh, I know. It was because of the Line of Demarcation. The Line of Demarcation was the line the Pope drew in 1493 to divide the world between Portugal and Spain. They could claim any unclaimed land that they didn't own on their side of the world. The Pope even later adjusted the line a little bit. Portugal had only a few regions on their side of the line in the Western hemisphere, one of those regions just happened to be Brazil. Ultimately they conquered the area and the people there learned Portugesse and not Spanish.

[KrazyHorse]

Jerk! I wanted to see how long I could string him along!

[TechWins]

Jerk! I wanted to see how long I could string him along

Hey sorry. He obviously didn't know. So I just said why it is that way.

[Juggernaut]

that´s irrelevant. sorry for not taking any history classes in high school. i blame it on my government, who had law-enforced us take religion instead. it´s true, damn christian-democrats

what we´re speaking about here, is whether the civs will mix and they will.

ha!

[AroSch]

Originally posted by uncle_funk
if you capture another civ´s city in civ 2, it goes civil disorder the first round, and after that it works normal again and might even become MORE happier than when it was before you invaded it! completely unrealistic.
i mean, one thing if the city´s original civ was a despotic disaster but anyway...

when you invade a city you should have a few options:

1) keep it under siege.
let the city´s pop become slaves and make a lot of money. should require lotsa military units.

2) try to assimilate the city to your own civ.
this should take a lot of time, and ABSOLUTELY NOT a single round! since a majority of the civ´s pop is another culture you should gave the option to start an "assimilate program" or something, investing money in entertainers and blending them with your own culture. after ie. 500 years, the people have forgotten their background, and the city is truely yours...

til then, the city´s original civ has the opportunity to affect it through spies and propaganda, making it remember it´s roots...

a factor should be the geographical distance. if invading a city on the other side of earth, it should be much more complicated to assimilate than if it was your neighbour civ.

the more the civ´s culture, government, religion is unlike your´s - the harder to convert them...

I agree with most of this. This topic has a lot to do with others once posted here: civil disorder and so on. I think in Civ3 there will be this "culture". And this could fixing some of the problems known in Civ2. Couldn´t it?

[Deathwalker]

I agree the captureing of cities needs to be imporved, but in the end if you keep a cities long enough they do no longer want to sperate from you, e.g Constansipole, is know very much a part of turkey, but only after a sutable time had passed.

[DarkCloud]

That sounds like a good addenum formula to decide how long the assimilation would take under normal proceedings. Good work in adding it to my base formula!

[art_vandelai]

Heres a few thoughts that could make the way conquering foreign cities and populations operates more interesting.

1. Each population point will have a nationality assigned to it. That nationality stays for the entire game.

2. As cities grow larger and more prosperous and better cultured, they will attract immigrants from other nations. Those immigrants would retain the nationality from which they came. The number of immigrants each country receives would be affected by such things as diplomatic status, peace (a civ that was constantly involved in wars would be more likely to have emigrants going to the other nations) and ease of transportation between the civ's.

To make it easier to handle, it may not be necessary to reduce the population by 1 in a foreign city for every 1 in a domestic city - a percentage of each civ's pop growth would be steered towards immigration, and once the pop growth that goes to your civ is enough to make an immigrant, that immigrant pops up in one of your cities, increasing pop and allowing more tiles to be worked and resources.

3. When making a settler, two of YOUR civ's pop points are removed.

4. When the ratio of foreign to domestic inhabitants of your city is higher, more unhappiness would be caused (unless you are in advanced governments that are tolerant of other cultures) and possibility of revolt to the original civ. Military will need to stay in a conquered city for a long time to keep it in your civ.

5. A civ could use genocide as a manner of reducing the foreign populations within their cities - incurring a severe immediate penalty in diplomacy and causing peaceful democratic nations to go to war with the genocidal civ, not to mention the original civ whos population abroad is getting killed off. All players would get a message (Player, The Chinese are commiting genocide against their American population - What action do you wish to take - WAR, end all trade, do nothing). Doing nothing would of course put your civ in a similar diplomatic position vis a vis the rest of the world.

6. Even if an empire is completely destroyed, the population they created is maintained, and if revolt occurs, the civ could be re-born.

7. You can move your domestic population from city to city by using settlers (again remembering the penalties for doing so as 2 pop points = 1 settler)

This has some huge advantages in the ideas to combat BAB and ICS as well. What do you all think?

[Juggernaut]

1. Each population point will have a nationality assigned to it. That nationality stays for the entire game.

already confirmed by Firaxis to be in Civ III.

5. A civ could use genocide as a manner of reducing the foreign populations within their cities - incurring a severe immediate penalty in diplomacy and causing peaceful democratic nations to go to war with the genocidal civ, not to mention the original civ whos population abroad is getting killed off. All players would get a message (Player, The Chinese are commiting genocide against their American population - What action do you wish to take - WAR, end all trade, do nothing). Doing nothing would of course put your civ in a similar diplomatic position vis a vis the rest of the world.

like that. should be one of the fastest way for a complete assimilation. i would use it all the time, when exterminating another civ. there is ofcourse a way to let them starve to accomplish this, but genocide is cooler and faster.