Resources= Play-Balance Troubles

[DarkCloud]

I have a few worries about resources:

1.) Will it not be extremely hard to give priority to the computer to connect roads to resources to fully utilize them, AND make the computer fight battles competently?

2.) Will there be enough non-depleteable resources on the map.

3.) Will managing resources become tedious?

4.) Will managing resources take precedence of fighting battles?

The idea of Resources really needs to be polished for it to work in the game without breaking the mystical Civ III game.

[Asesino_Virtual]

LImited, and concentred resources are a great adition to CIVIII. Many wars were fought in order to get enought resources for makeing fiendish plans come true, or to get economical advantage, see for example the English, the pirates of the 19th century.
Now i wonder, how limited will the resources be.

But again, the way that resources are managed, in union with borders, culture and improved diplomacy, are the most important aditions.

A_V

[Swissy]

Gee, isn't that what building a great civ is all about, managing your resources to further the progress of your civ? And isn't the scarity of certain resources the reason why many wars have been fought? Wow, a civ game where play may follow actual historical consequences; you find a precious resource and somebody else whats it so you have to protect it.

As for how the AI is going to play with all the new game sub-systems. I doubt Firaxis would let any info out a game sub-system unless they had sufficently tested it to see that it works correctly within the whole game system.

[Inverse Icarus]

managing resources SHOULD be predominant over fighting battles. (this comming from the "war monger" of many threads)

the fact that you need iron to build legions (swordsmen for all but rome) makes it so that you have to mine iron, or trade for it.

it adds a whole new concept of diplomacy and war. now an embargo on a civ could be devistating.

if the Chinese Emissary seems "hostile", you can stop shipping them oil, and effectively slow or stop their tank production.

and then wars over resources. that'll be fun.

imagine being the only race with uranium. the only civ with nukes



i have a question though:

i read somewhere that colonies are treated like size 1 cities, in that when an enemy walk on them they are destoyed.

could you "de-rail" a colony? do they have a definate owner? or are they like airbases? could i build a road to a Chinese colony and sever theirs?

[To_Serve_Man]

could you "de-rail" a colony? do they have a definate owner? or are they like airbases? could i build a road to a Chinese colony and sever theirs?

You mean as if colonies are 'neutral' in a way and as long as they are linked to a road (any road) they will supply whoever is connected? Interesting thought. Colonies did change hands very often in the colonial times. Firaxis hasnt said much about the details of colonies or the trade system much but I agree totaly that resources are going to be a great instentive for war. But I also share DarkCloud's worries that the AI won't be able to fully exploit the resource system. I wish they would update the Civ3 site... argh

[DarkCloud]

I do think that introuducing resources in Civ III is a good idea- the problem is, there should only be so many types of resources.

My ideas is that if you simplyfy the amount of avaliable resources into these categories:

Minerals
Food
Advanced Mining Products (Oil, Rubber, Polyurethanes)
(Another Misc. Category)

This would allow someone to easily manage most of their resources by allowing them to mine iron to make tanks (and) legions.

In my book resource management takes a second seat to improving:

War and Diplomacy in Civ III

[TechWins]

The way I see things is that resources are tied into every aspect of the game (culture, war, creating units, diplomacy, etc...). I think the idea of resources is brilliant. Darkcloud, just have a little faith in Firaxis.

[To_Serve_Man]

Yeah, I'm with TechWins... these Resources revolutionise the game on so many different levels

• Now units must be built from actual 'STUFF' instead of the imfamous 'Shields'.. how do shields build things?!
• Luxuary Items/Resources such as silk will create Culture, which is a new addition to the game. Culture expands out Borders... Borders are new too.
• Resources gives something to fight over. In all my Civ2 games that were played against AI, i think I can say 90% or more of all the wars I got into were started by the AI backstabbing me randomly. The other 10% was to use my units!

[Mahdimael]

I love the idea of resources, actually. It's an extension of how the game works. Where you start can determine the flow of the game. If you start on an island, you're probably going to go for more nautical advances earlier. Likewise, if you're near a bronze resource square, then you'll probably focus on technologies and units that use it.

One suggestion I would have is to make the earlier resources useful in later applications. That is, don't make bronze useless in the later stages of the game. I don't mind if it's used in a less useful application, but it shouldn't become useless.

I would think this is historically accurate. Things like spices that may be hard to find in earlier periods and become more commonplace later on are still produced: they don't just magically appear. Perhaps this could translate into some kind of production/science/etc bonus after a certain discovery. So once I get refrigeration, say, spices start giving me a +1 or 2 trade bonus for the square

Originally posted by UberKruX
the fact that you need iron to build legions (swordsmen for all but Rome) makes it so that you have to mine iron, or trade for it.

That is correct.

if the Chinese Emissary seems "hostile", you can stop shipping them oil, and effectively slow or stop their tank production.

Can't wait to hurt Mao.

I read somewhere that colonies are treated like size 1 cities, in that when an enemy walk on them they are destroyed.

could you "de-rail" a colony? do they have a definite owner? or are they like airbases? could I build a road to a Chinese colony and sever theirs?

Yes they are. However the colony belong to the Civ that build them and not to everyone who may have a road connected to them.
Yes you will have to provide Military protection for each colony and the road network that connected the colony to your Empire. Firaxis said, if a enemy finds a unprotected road or colony they will destroy it.
This game is going to be fun.

[yin26]

This game will only be fun if the computer is highly optimized to realize all these resources, etc. On a static map, you could hard-wire the comp fairly well (until you memorized the comps opening, of course), but on random maps (which is where I'd spend most of my time), the comp will in all likelihood simply be unable to handle it. Throw diplomacy and trade on top of that, and I think we might have a game only worth playing in MP (if it will work in MP, that is).

Remind anybody of that OTHER "Civ" game?

[KrazyHorse]

Big surprise; yin is pessimistic about the AI...I think I've been on this ride before.

[Rasputin]

Originally posted by yin26
we might have a game only worth playing in MP

now that would suit me ok... i prefer MP ....

[yin26]

KH:

FACT: The number of important considerations the comp will have to make with Diplomacy, Resources and Trade represents jumps in magnitude over a simple war-mongering game.

FACT: All this Diplomacy, Resources and Trade will only be fun in single player if the comp can handle it.

FACT: Firaxis has said NOTHING about AI improvements.

So if you want to continue your ride of "close my eyes and believe," I certainly won't stop you, but just stop and think for a moment how horrible Civ 3 would be if the comp makes ludicrious (or no) diplomatic choices, can't even "see" the all-important iron deposit 3 tiles away and seemingly trades via a random number generator.

[LaRusso]

Originally posted by yin26
KH:

FACT: The number of important considerations the comp will have to make with Diplomacy, Resources and Trade represents jumps in magnitude over a simple war-mongering game.

FACT: All this Diplomacy, Resources and Trade will only be fun in single player if the comp can handle it.

FACT: Firaxis has said NOTHING about AI improvements.

So if you want to continue your ride of "close my eyes and believe," I certainly won't stop you, but just stop and think for a moment how horrible Civ 3 would be if the comp makes ludicrious (or no) diplomatic choices, can't even "see" the all-important iron deposit 3 tiles away and seemingly trades via a random number generator.

umm
they said 'fall 2001'. how about waiting till then? we actually have NO idea as to how the game 'feels'....
this is turning into a shrink couch....

[yin26]

Of course I understand your point, but Civ3 will be primarily a single-player experience for MOST people. Understanding this, the issue of AI should have a spotlight put on it. To simply say: "Look at all those new and complex things...this game will be WONDERFUL!" is to totally ignore the bigger issue that a programmer has to find a way for your comp opponents to effectively use it all.

Now Chris Pine, their resident AI guru, is no doubt hard at work on this issue, but it's an uphill battle to say the least. Don't get me wrong, I'm pulling for him. But when was the last time a TBS comp thrashed you without cheating? When was the last time you saw a TBS comp intelligently use the options available? It wasn't Civ 2, that's certain.

If it's a simple affair of maximizing build orders, the comp might do it well. But seeking resources across a random map, dealing with a highly flexible dimplomatic model, and using trade now as a vital part of your unit production...it will take even good players a bit to get used to that.

If Firaxis thinks their comp AI is up for it, why not tell us? Are we simply to assume? LOL! It's kind of like saying: "Yeah, our race car has a great paint job, a slick gear shifter, bucket seats and a 32 oz. cup holder!" What about the engine and handling? "No comment."

Huh?

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by yin26
KH:

FACT etc.

Wait...I'm going to admit that I have no idea how well the AI will fare until I've played it, since my psychic sense is unreliable at best. Maybe you should do the same?

FACT: The Firaxis team knows how stupid the AI from Civ II was.

FACT: If given the choice between pissing us off and not pissing us off, four out of five Firaxis programmers would choose to not piss us off.

[yin26]

LOL! Fair enough. Your two facts seem right on...if a bit optimistic. One thing, though: I'd replace "psychic sense" with "experience." That's all.

[SerapisIV]

Well lets look at the past Civ AI progression:

Civ2 better then Civ1
SMAC better then Civ2
Civ3 better then SMAC ??

You can bet that Firaxis observed every bit of the CTP2 AI fiasco, given that and their track record, I see little reason to doubt that the AI, while not perfect, will be better then SMAC, a game's who's AI I was pretty happy with as a SP player.

[N35t0r]

and the main discussion after the game is out will be 'AI bugs'

[KrazyHorse]

I don't expect a flawless AI, but it would be nice if some of the more obvious errors which come to light after game release are fixed in a timely fashion.

[N35t0r]

let's set up a contest:

'who finds the first AI bug'

and
'who finds the first game bug'

[SerapisIV]

In my opinion, I think I found the first game bug......

THE GAME IS FREAKIN RELEASED YET

Goddamn, I'm having trouble playing SMAX because of all the promise that Civ3 has. The fact that the game isn't in my grubby little paws yet is definitely a game bug/flaw.

[KrazyHorse]

Gee...that ought to take all of about an hour.

[N35t0r]

that's why..

it would mean not only finding the bugs, but a marathon to the local games store

[TechWins]

SerapisIV I would have to agree with your last two posts.

[yin26]

The number of serious flaws in the SMAC AI is stunning. Uncleroggy found one, for example, with the needle jets that allowed him to EASILY defeat them again and again and again with almost no cost. Or the needle jets that would simply run out of fuel. Etc. etc. I don't care to rehash it...but when Brian Reynolds got the mail about that particular thing, he was genuinely stunned.

This comes back to my hope that the beta testers are given full reign to discover, report and see problems like that fixed. Unlike many of you here, I realize the limits of a small team of programmers to come anywhere near close the "real-world" gaming environment. They simply become numb to their own work.

Have you ever tried to proof-read a long paper for the 10th time at 5 a.m. only to have your friend, who has never seen the paper, look over your shoulder and say: "Shouldn't the title be 'Bug Report' and not 'Big Report'?"

So, no, I do NOT have faith that the Firaxis team on its own can handle this gameplay issue. That is not criticism. It's realism. And good companies actively seek veteran players and/or hold intense and fully-supported beta testing to get the job done right.

[DarkCloud]

... I don't know how but in Alpha-Centauri (at least for me) there was a bug that (even when I played as the University) when I played for 500-600 years I had either A: conquered the world (and) B: not yet researched past Level 5...

Resources just bring too many different figures to the equation for the AI to deal with... so, either Civ III will need a Pentium 700 with 256 MB of RAM or a scaled down version will have horrible AI.

No one sets out to make a horrible game, it just sometimes ends up that way...

Because of resources I predict that Civ III will be released Fall 2002.

[Dr Strangelove]

Yes I like the idea of resources that are more variable in quantity and the idea that some units will require specific resources to produce. Is the later certain yet? I'd like to see some resources have different levels of difficulty to harvest. As an example: the iron deposits in Spain were really quite small in total quantity of iron in comparison to some european mines of this century, but the iron was easily accessible. There was enough iron available to give Rome a commanding lead in iron production throughout its later history. The deposits in western Germany/ northern France on the other hand were much more massive, but the technological capability to harvest this ore wasn't available in the ancient world.
One point that should be made is that in the modern world the consumption of some resources has grown exponentially. The game should reflect this somehow. Perhaps the easily accessible resources should be of small quantities such that they are consumed by the advent of the modern era.
Finally, I hope that Firaxis will give those who create their own maps and scenarios the ability to manually place resources.

[TechWins]

Finally, I hope that Firaxis will give those who create their own maps and scenarios the ability to manually place resources.

Yeah, that would be really cool.