No corruption in communism don't let me laugh

[KrazyHorse]

Ah yes...another soul who believes that the Liberal media conspiracy to convert all American schoolchildren into patricidal Commie zombies began when the homosexual life-partners Marx and Darwin cooperated on writing "The Communist Manifesto" and "The Origin of the Species", which, when read simultaneously while listening to "Strawberry Fields Forever" played backwards causes the participants to fall into a deep stupor, give up their guns, believe that the moon landing actually occurred, and vote Democrat.

All in one sentence; Virginia Woolf, eat your heart out.

[1]

I think the thread had gone a lil astray. I think communisim should generate corruption. As we all know, all attempts at communism have lead down a dire path of dwindeling $ and political unstability (USSR, China, Cuba...). Yes, it is true, if you take the PURE concept of communism, this might have not have happened, however you can't bring it to that extreme in Civ. You have to tone down the concept and see how it actually played out in history. Is ANY form of government in Civ the PURE concept of it? Do you have to get a majority vote to build a highway in democracy? The answer is clearly no, and for Civ to represent one government in its purest form, and not others, is also clearly not fair.

[LaRusso]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse


Really...any more so than a Texan oilfield or a strip-mining operation? Remember that the Thames has actually caught on fire on two separate occasions...

The biggest cost was human. There were famine years during the twenties and thirties, but Stalin kept selling grain to foreign countries in order to raise das Kapital to finance the rapid industrial development. I think something like 11 million people died.

well, trying to embarass KPSS (soviet communists), Yeltsin ordered opening of KGB archives.
they said that 4 million people were 'repressed during stalin era'. repressed encompassed prison, forced labor, resettlement or shooting squad.

now you may question the number but people here (and everywhere on the west) are very happy to shoot any double digit million number there is....


and...my name is not daniel ever seen 'mediterraneo'?

[KrazyHorse]

I'm talking about deaths from starvation, not direct action by the NKVD, etc.

[LaRusso]

i reckon those were around 1 million in the great ukraine famine.
i'm really lazy now to look for the census numbers, they are the only accurate indicators...

[KrazyHorse]

I'm not absolutely certain on that 11 million figure, but that was the only firm number I've ever heard quoted.

[kolpo]

What? To counter US freedoms? Just give us enough time and the stupid general public will let the government take over. I don't want to turn out like the Europeans, who are further down the path than us, no offense to anyone. What we need is a bastion of freedom to influence the world. A government that protects its citizanry, not oppress them. The US isn't perfect, but its the best we got. Now we only have to ban public schools... a hotbed of ignorance and despair. The only thing I have against Bush now is his compromise on education.

I think he meant rather human capitalims(because in US Has the meaning of the word communism changed over time and it has no longer it's orginal meaning). On all reports of Amnesty score the European left winged nations like Sweden and Danemark MUCH better then the USA. We don't kill people because they offended the law, We don't arrest people because they are a little left winged(like USA under the Cold War), we don't refuse to heal people because they have no money and we also don't call everything a little left winged communist.

Under Clinton had the USA improved in those aspects but Bush is destroying it again(one of the few USA presidents I liked togetter with Roosevelt).

In most left winged european nations does government listen very well to it's people, they will quite never do something that more then +/-50% is against(like Bush does often).

And while our average income is a very little below USA do we work less hours a week and is in fact the income for each hour worked the same our higher here. Which gives us more freedom, no where is there more freedom then in Europe. The Eastern European Nations do everything to be able to join the Europeaan Union. Gues why? Because we are a symbol of freedom in Europe, a fortress of freedom.

And about education:

education=productivity=economic grown

So the state must make sure that everyone can follow education and should pay for those wo can't pay it, trhey will get that money in the form of higher productivy back later after all.

And yes I believe of course in the evolution theory there is more proof for this theory then quite every other theory. Biologe have by observing certain animals for a long time actually WATCHED evolution! They clairly saw that the DNA has change and that the creature has addapt itself better !

[Juggernaut]

And about education:

education=productivity=economic grown

So the state must make sure that everyone can follow education and should pay for those wo can't pay it, trhey will get that money in the form of higher productivy back later after all.

1. if you can´t afford going to a school, there´s schoolarships, funds and loan corporations.

2. to pay for peoples education doesn´t automatically bring them back. if you´re an atheist and the tax money goes to some dude on the other side of the country who want´s to be a priest, it´s so close to theft it can be.

[kolpo]

2. to pay for peoples education doesn´t automatically bring them back. if you´re an atheist and the tax money goes to some dude on the other side of the country who want´s to be a priest, it´s so close to theft it can be.

But I still prefere that above a private laisse faire laisse passé education system. Just compare the scores on international education test of UK(mostly private education) and Belgium(mostly public) and you can clearly see how superior public education is.

[JMarks]

So much left wing ideology to fight, so little time!

Ah yes...another soul who believes that the Liberal media conspiracy to convert all American schoolchildren into patricidal Commie zombies began when the homosexual life-partners Marx and Darwin cooperated on writing "The Communist Manifesto" and "The Origin of the Species", which, when read simultaneously while listening to "Strawberry Fields Forever" played backwards causes the participants to fall into a deep stupor, give up their guns, believe that the moon landing actually occurred, and vote Democrat.

KrazyHorse, your bias is thinner than an ounce of gold punded out over a couple of football fields, as your post clearly demonstrates.

education=productivity=economic grown

True, but anyone hear of Machiavelle? Give people just enough education so they can do the work but don't think for themselves. Very Machiavellian. Furthermore, is that the only equation for education? I don't know about you, but to me, education is not something you get so you can make more money. Education is the search for wisdom. As a wise man once said to me, 'seek wisdom, persue useless knowledge' ei not necisarily practical for productivity or power.

But I still prefere that above a private laisse faire laisse passé education system. Just compare the scores on international education test of UK(mostly private education) and Belgium(mostly public) and you can clearly see how superior public education is.

I'm sorry, but to do this comparison, without going deeper as to why is just silly. If we do that, then I can say Homeschoolers in the US score better than public or private schoolers here, therefore everyone should take up homeschooling. Not a bad idea though...

2. to pay for peoples education doesn´t automatically bring them back. if you´re an atheist and the tax money goes to some dude on the other side of the country who want´s to be a priest, it´s so close to theft it can be.

And contrariwise, if your a Christian (I mean real Christian, not psuedo Christian) and your tax money goes to some dude that wants to be a scientific evolutionists, thats close to theft too. In fact, since the whole system over there is evolutionist, it seems that it would be equal to theft itself because he is paying for indoctrination.

On all reports of Amnesty score the European left winged nations like Sweden and Danemark MUCH better then the USA. We don't kill people because they offended the law, We don't arrest people because they are a little left winged(like USA under the Cold War), we don't refuse to heal people because they have no money and we also don't call everything a little left winged communist.

What does Amnesty know? If another murders, the government, after a fair trial, has the right to take that man's life. The government is a tool for vengence, to protect its citizenry. Hey, because we've gone soft, and still have our freedoms, we have higher crime rates. And our schools aren't helping much, if you haven't noticed.

Arresting people for their believes like in the cold war, is stupid. So don't say I'm in favor of it. Its just a shame to see people willing to throw their freedoms aside. Oh, and not every left winger is a communist, I would think they are more all socialist.
Which brings me too:

And while our average income is a very little below USA do we work less hours a week and is in fact the income for each hour worked the same our higher here. Which gives us more freedom, no where is there more freedom then in Europe. The Eastern European Nations do everything to be able to join the Europeaan Union. Gues why? Because we are a symbol of freedom in Europe, a fortress of freedom.

I think you misunderstand the concept of freedom, at least American freedom. It sounds like your definition of freedom is like free-time, or free-money. Or even free-services, free-jobs, and everything else that defines a socialist nation. That is just the security of slavery. Real freedom isn't government promises that no matter what happens you'll be just fine. Real freedom can be scarry, why? Because it is a freedom to succeed, as well as to fail. If anyone has a mind to, they can succeed, though not always by 'conventional' means. It is a freedom to speak your thoughts, a freedom to teach your children. It is the freedom to own a weapon to defend yourself and family. Such freedom can be scarry to people who want security. Well, enough ranting and preaching.

And yes I believe of course in the evolution theory there is more proof for this theory then quite every other theory. Biologe have by observing certain animals for a long time actually WATCHED evolution! They clairly saw that the DNA has change and that the creature has addapt itself better !

So, where is this documented? Has any NEW genetic matterial been created? Otherwise, its just natural breeding. That would be like to say, look at the dog through the centuries, we have evolved it into so many different breeds, how can you say there is no evolution! Don't mention the peppered moth either. And the blind shrimp in caves? Evolved the ability not to see? All these have been LOSSES of genetic information, albeit, benificial for their instance, does not prove evolution, but just what we have always known. I want to see true evolution, not psuedo evolution.

Respectably,

Ioanes

PS Yes, we are off topic, but I can't pass the temptation to debate European left-wingers. I know I probably won't change their minds, but hey, at least they won't own the topic.

[LaRusso]

we own it muhahahahah

[Juggernaut]

And contrariwise, if your a Christian (I mean real Christian, not psuedo Christian) and your tax money goes to some dude that wants to be a scientific evolutionists, thats close to theft too. In fact, since the whole system over there is evolutionist, it seems that it would be equal to theft itself because he is paying for indoctrination.

exactly, there´s not two individs who has exactly the same subjective view on what shall be included in public service and not. so i say, let taxes o n l y go to human rights and welfare, not culture decided by the state etc. but that would only be m i n e subjective view, ofcourse

[JMarks]

exactly, there´s not two individs who has exactly the same subjective view on what shall be included in public service and not. so i say, let taxes o n l y go to human rights and welfare, not culture decided by the state etc. but that would only be m i n e subjective view, ofcourse

Well, at least we agree half way. Government, at least American government, should generaly stay away from welfare, though giving justice is my definition of human rights, I don't know what you mean by it. At most welfare for war widows and people who's lives where sacrificed by the government. Otherwise one's own (family, friends, church, non-profit orgs) should take care of them. But hey, that would undo all Roosevelt has done.
If one is going down the wrong road, forward usually isn't the best way, backing up is required.

Ioanes

[Juggernaut]

though giving justice is my definition of human rights, I don't know what you mean by it.

The Human Rights doctrine definated by the UN.

Otherwise one's own (family, friends, church, non-profit orgs) should take care of them.

That depends on pretty much on the situation. if one is young and breaks his neck, becomes permanent paralyzed, got no social assurance, got no friends, no family (extreme case ) etc. is does this guy deserve less money and to have trust on non-profit orgs for the rest of his life? don´t think so, no...

[KrazyHorse]

And now we get to see a debate between an American right-winger and his European countepart.

[Juggernaut]

I´m not right-wing. I´m left-liberal. It´s funny to see how easily Marxists get offended by nothing.

[SerapisIV]

Thank god Firaxis is a red-blooded American developer. We don't have to deal with any of the socialist crap you Euros want



Okay, I don't really know what I was talking about there, I just like playing the obnoxious American now and then by pissing off those who aren't

[Juggernaut]

i wonder if Civ had been fun if it had been made in Russia? probably hard to read, that´s for sure...

[Marquis de Sodaq]

What I find most interesting about this entire discussion is the brash presumption of many americans that the american way is the best way. Also their short, selective memories on topics such as human rights and environment. Having lived on both sides of the atlantic, I'd likely choose the european government/economic system over the american.

Yes, the european gains less personally in a socialized economic system, but the whole is better off. Before greed became king, it was generally understood that a society could be judged by how well off its poorest or least fortunate were living. This is one of the ideas that propelled Roosevelt's new deal thru the political arena of the day. Because of the depression, many americans were not at all well off, most people were at least affected. Times change, but policies are slow to react. You might disagree with the social safety nets that are in place in the US, but without them, this country would find itself in a very different reality. What that would be is just speculation, it's been long enough that the imagination could concoct all sorts of scenarios. Backtracking is never a way out. Society is different, what worked 80 years ago won't have the same result today.

When you stand up to proudly defend the american system, I challenge you to find a black or an indian to agree with you. (no, this is not an invitation for anecdotes about some black guy who succeeded... it's just a generalization) Generally, those who were beaten down and denied opportunity are the ones left holding the blame for being in a poor state. Seeing the truth of why most poor are poor (again, no anecdotes, please) is not some left-wing hooey, it is simply accepting the reality of american history. As in any nation's history, there are many ugly tales to tell. Europeans just as easily tend to overlook that many of them have gained immensely by sucking dry their former colonies. When wronged, people tend to remember forever; Those who wrong others quickly forget.

To say the capitalist ecomony has been eco-friendly is foolish, it merely outshines the horrific aftermath of the communist system. There is plenty of room for improvement. To say it is better in human rights requires some very selective memory and broad oversights.

A fine (probably a mis-)quote (of course, I forget whose) that seems appropriate for my heap of verbiage:

The man who crows loudest about the free market and competition is also the man who inherited his father's business.

[Marquis de Sodaq]

Okay, I ought to start my long posts with

[boxing mode]

[/boxing mode]

I always get in trouble for trying to squeeze a five page essay into a few paragraphs - not enough detail, trying to cover too much ground...

ANYWAY, altho it might not mirror the real governments, I think the Civ communism was a fine middle ground between the representative governments and monarchy. More production/military oriented, but with a weaker economy. The corruption level could easily be upped in rules.txt, for those who didn't like all those honest bureaucrats.

[Juggernaut]

To say the capitalist ecomony has been eco-friendly is foolish

if a company acts questionable against the environment, you simply don´t buy their products. and the company dies. simple as that. although, the government should have the ability to interact in extreme cases.

The man who crows loudest about the free market and competition is also the man who inherited his father's business.

socialism = enviousness?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Really...any more so than a Texan oilfield or a strip-mining operation? Remember that the Thames has actually caught on fire on two separate occasions...

Oooooh yes! Much worse! You should see some of the devestation...

And what just happened on the 3rd page of this thread?! To the Off-Topic, all of ya!

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
[And what just happened on the 3rd page of this thread?! To the Off-Topic, all of ya!

Agreed.

[JMarks]

Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq


When you stand up to proudly defend the american system, I challenge you to find a black or an indian to agree with you. (no, this is not an invitation for anecdotes about some black guy who succeeded... it's just a generalization) Generally, those who were beaten down and denied opportunity are the ones left holding the blame for being in a poor state. Seeing the truth of why most poor are poor (again, no anecdotes, please) is not some left-wing hooey, it is simply accepting the reality of american history. As in any nation's history, there are many ugly tales to tell. Europeans just as easily tend to overlook that many of them have gained immensely by sucking dry their former colonies. When wronged, people tend to remember forever; Those who wrong others quickly forget.

A fine (probably a mis-)quote (of course, I forget whose) that seems appropriate for my heap of verbiage:

The man who crows loudest about the free market and competition is also the man who inherited his father's business.

To say no one has in the past been denied a chance would be silly, of course. The problem was not the system, but sinful man boasting he, and others of like skin color, are supreme and all else should just go to the garbage heap. I know (not personally, but I have heard him many'a time) a black man who loves this country and is probably even more radically right-wing than I. To say that blacks and indians don't have the opportunity now is just ignorance.

Oh, I'll crow louder than those people who inherit stuff. Why? Because I can make my own dreams, make my own money, and I can give it to whomever I will. (Death to the death tax!)
Immigrants came here so their sons and daughters could have it better than they did. Don't let that dream die.

That depends on pretty much on the situation. if one is young and breaks his neck, becomes permanent paralyzed, got no social assurance, got no friends, no family (extreme case ) etc. is does this guy deserve less money and to have trust on non-profit orgs for the rest of his life? don´t think so, no...

Unca Funk, that is an extreme, and there are usually exceptions to any rule. Still, I think we should adopt an ancient Hebrew practice of leaving such people in the care of the wealthy. Bill Gates would get a good share of them.

To all, freedom can be scarry for the underdog (like me). But I wouldn't trade it for all the security of a socialist government. You can make your own minds up.

Yes, all this is off topic, but it is so fun! Communism in Civ2 is good where it is. Hope it stays, I still'll never use it, except in scenarios

Ioanes

PS, Fourth of July tommorrow! God bless America!

[bertje121]

damn with all the lefties!

[ancient]

conservatives suck, they dont help anyone ever, look at bush, so far hes like one of the worst presidents weve had..

[bertje121]

Bush rules!

But I prefer Right-Wing Liberals

[JMarks]

Bush rocks on most issues, though I'm still upset about the compromise on education. Bush is much better than Clinton. He realises the American government is not supposed to be a welfare state. Besides, you don't know how many people he has helped! Just because he isn't using the government to do so doesn't mean he hasn't helped out. All you 'compasionate' liberals can just put your money where your mouth is and help those poor dejected people yourself.

Ever hear of Davy Crocket? He was a senator before he went out to the Alamo. He voted against relief for some fire victims. Why? Because it was not the role of government. He helped those people himself, and chalanged the senators to do the same, hey, they were wealthy enough as it is! Hey, those liberal aristrocrates, the Kennedy's are still rich. Just because someone doesn't want the government help people, doesn't mean they want those people to die.

By the way, HAPPY INDEPENDENCE DAY!!


God bless America! God save the state!

[AzNtoccata]

Oh right, no corruption in "democracy", don't make ME laugh.

[Juggernaut]

God bless America! God save the state!