c#175 SMACX ECO-DAMAGE FORMULA REVISED!

MarkG · July 1, 2001, 18:45

175# SMACX ECO-DAMAGE FORMULA REVISED!

The Column makes a.... technical turn and lands on Alpha Centauri

Avenoct · July 4, 2001, 10:20

Just wanted to say thanks to Ned, Blake and Fitz for this great research! It really amazes me how long it's taken the SMAC community to figure this one out, and slowly but surely the pieces have been coming together on the forums for quite some time. This article is the coup de grace and cap on the LONGstanding ecodamage discussion. Whew! Finally! I for one really appreciate the article and think it's especially well written.

-Smack

Ned · July 5, 2001, 11:57

Smack, Thanks for the response. I think I should write one up on the Bureaucracy Drone formula as well.

The eco-damage analysis truly was a cooperative effort among the Blake, Fitz and I. I was the one who noticed the pandemic effect of tree farms. Blake is the one who suggested that "building" them, rather than possessing them, was critical. He also discovered the initial pop condition. He also suggested that variances could be explained by rounding errors. Fitz was critical in debugging the math, particularly the "integer" rounding at a critical portion of the formula.

Our efforts also disproved several other commonly held beliefs. One of these was that increasing tech actually reduced ED when the opposite is the case.

In the end, the new eco-damage formula is just filled with new discoveries and data useful not only for understanding ED, but also for planning your empire.

Ned

Fitz · July 5, 2001, 17:47

Thanks for the mention Ned, but I feel like my primary contribution was keeping things on track, and maybe a little mathmatical "wordsmithing" at the end. You and Blake certainly did all the slogwork and brainstorming.

You should definately do a beauracracy drone one as well. If I get the time, I'll see if I can express your discoveries in that area as a mathematical formula too, but I think it would be hard. Certainly, as I said in that thread, even a simple set of base limit tables is difficult, as it would be a three axis table.

death_head · July 5, 2001, 18:03

In my opinion there is nothing better than a game with equations. Looks good.

Ned · July 5, 2001, 22:37

Fitz, I really welcome your help on describing b-drones in mathematical terms. I was able to express the bureaucracy formula in words, but writing it down in terms of symbols is just a little bit beyond me.

Since discovering both the ED formula and the BD formula's, my game has altered somewhat. I now stop expanding right at the first B-warning and begin developing infrastructure. At this point, there are no b-drones, and maintaining rapid growth is easy. One can convert to Demo/(Green or Planned)/Wealth and GA right after Research Hospitals. I continue to build and crawl farms/condensors, work/crawl forests, crawl roaded mines, and work boreholes and sea improvements, with the rest specialists. Mineral production mounts to 50-60 without factories, and around 90 with Genejacks. Repeatly building and selling Centauri Preserves is the trick to very high mineral production with a smal, but amazingly productive, empire.

I limit the number of bases to keep the b-drones down so that I can easily stay in GA at all bases. This initial limitation in number of bases also accommodate adding bases by conquest without undue b-drones. The more b-drones you have, the more difficult it is to stay in GA, which is the real trick to keeping income high.

Jokka das Trevas · July 7, 2001, 20:31

But I still have a doubt.

I'm pretty sure by now that nerve gas somehow causes pollution, but I didn't saw it in the collumn

But it is still great =)

Qilue · July 9, 2001, 10:51

Excellant column, especially since I now understand what exactly was happening in those games where I pushed eco-damage at some bases to 4 digits.

Fitz · July 9, 2001, 15:11

Jokka, Nerve Gas does cause eco-damage, but I'm not sure how much. It could be the same as a planet buster (equivelent of 5 minerals) or some lesser value. But that is one thing we forgot to test.

It does not cause eco-damage when used against aliens though.

Avenoct · July 9, 2001, 15:58

When you say aliens, do you mean alien factions or planet (worms, etc.)? I wouldn't know about the alien factions, being a Mac Smac'er

-Smack

Fitz · July 13, 2001, 13:54

Well seing as you can't use Nerve Gas against Native lifeforms ...

Just kidding.

Yeah, I mean't the Alien factions in Alien Crossfire.

Avenoct · July 17, 2001, 21:52

Ah no wonder! I'm not x-fire capable, being a Steve Jobs flunkie.

Black Sunrise · July 23, 2001, 19:45

Well, I know about how much eco-damage nerve gas uses, but not exactly:
In short, a LOT, and I like using PB's, so when I mean a lot, I mean LOTS.
It's because it is usually used with choppers, so you get 20-100 uses in one turn.
In a game I'm in, I started with 10 nerve gas choppers 3 turns ago. I launched a first strike (Hi Stuntman!). Everything is WAY out of control, with sea levels estimated at rising 1266 meters in the next 20 years, we had a volcano, and there are 10-20 mindworm pops in my land alone every turn.
Of course, it's getting worse, as I have to keep escalating to remain alive, but be careful using nerve gas in late games.

Right now, I'm actually guessing I can survive Planet better than the other two players (I'm Sven, so I already have pressure domes, and because of my projects every unit is commando), so I may just keep pushing planet and see who survives.

Waterworld, here we come!
Indra

Ned · July 24, 2001, 03:00

Actually, sinking the world as Sven just might be a plan. Ned

Sindai · August 10, 2001, 00:18

Heck, it does make a pretty good plan. I remember on the old boards someone made a whole thread about this nifty new "Gas and Drown" strat he'd discovered.

Bob Morane · August 13, 2001, 04:39

Well, thanx a lot for this formula, i wondered for a long time how to avoid those stupid eco-damages.
You said you found the drone formula, where can i find it.
Oh, and by the way, the see rise technique with Pirates is good, i already used it.

Smack, Alien x-fire does exist for macintosh now.

Ned · August 13, 2001, 10:44

Bob, I have yet to write a complete article on b-drones. However there is a thread on Bureaucracy warning help that contain a lot of useful information. I will paste one note in that thread here. Since I wrote this note, I have discovered that giving away bases, at least with Dr. Z, reduces your b-drone problem. There is a thread on that topic as well. Finally there is another thread on Talent Creation. This thread begins the discussion of how to get to GA in the face of b-drones.

There is other information elsewhere. As I said, I would like to put it all in one posting. Maybe next week.

Ned

Below are data for four different B/W's. One can see the pattern, so I did not finish the table with B/W = 18. The first b-drone is either at 2 or 1 + the b/w - 6. Other b-drones begin at offsets of multiples of the b/w from the first. They fill in as bases are added towards the first base. Finally, at the last base before the next b/w, the home base gets an additional b-drone.

Thus, at the end of each b/w sequence, i.e., just before the next b/w, all bases have the number of drones equal to the times one has passed a b/w.

I think we are done.

code:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bases B/W=6
0-6 0
7 2
8 2, 7-8
9 2, 6-8
10 2, 5-8
11 2, 4-8, 10-11
12 1-12
13 1-13, 2, 8
14 1-14, 2. 7-8. 14-15
15 1-15, 2, 6-8, 12-14
16 1-16, 2. 5-8, 11-14
17 1-17, 2, 4-8, 10-14, 16-17
18 1-18 (2)
19 1-19(2), 2, 8, 14
20 1-20(2), 2, 7-8, 13-14, 19-20
21 1-21(2), 2, 6-8, 12-14, 18-20
22 1-22(2), 2, 5-8, 11-14, 17-20
23 1-23(2), 2, 4-8, 10-14, 16-20, 22-23
24 1-24(3)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

code:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
B/W =9
10 4
11 3, 4
12 2- 4, 11, 12
13 2-4, 10-13
14 2-4, 9-13
15 2-4, 8-13
16 2-4,7-13, 16
17 2-4, 6-13, 15-17
18 1-18
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

code:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
B/W=12
13 7
14 6-7
15 5-7
16 4-7, 16
17 3-7, 15-17
18 2-7, 14-18
19 2-7, 13-18
20 2-7, 12-19
21 2-7, 11-19
22 2-7, 10-19, 22
23 2-7,9-19, 21-23
24 1-24
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

code:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
B/W=18
19 13
20 12-13
21 11-13
22 10-13
23 9-13
24 8-13
25 7-13, 25
26 6-13, 24-26
27 5-13, 23-27
28 4-13, 22-28
29 3-13, 21-29
30 2-13, 20-30
31 2-13, 19-31
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Last edited by Ned on 23-06-2001 at 23:28

Blake · September 23, 2001, 17:22

Egads, this isn't right.
*BUMP*

Avenoct · September 23, 2001, 18:53

Quote:

Smack, Alien x-fire does exist for macintosh now.

You're right...damn..no more excuses!

This thread needs to stay TOP-ED, along with a handy dictionary for words like 'VW' and 'SP' for the newbies. A link to Vel's guide should be Top-ed as well, not merely a discussion about it. Or perhaps we need a Forum Favorites option? I suggest a little pull-down menu at the top of each forum. For example, on MP list: How to play MP, Forum Wars, MP ettiquite, etc..

-Smack

Blake · September 23, 2001, 19:17

Smack, your right. Have you seen the Civ2 forum? They have a "Great libary" top-ed thread. A great idea!

I think AC G/H/S needs a "Datalinks" top-ed thread, with a link to Vel's strategy guide, ED column, abbreviations, good strategy threads, etc.etc. Basically like the Civ2 one, but Datalinky

Any volunteers? I'm much too busy at the moment

(hey, check out the "gaggle of smilies" html I cooked up)

Unfortunately I'm busy procrastinating

- Blake

Flubber · December 14, 2001, 17:12

bumped for the Y guy

MariOne · January 25, 2002, 19:37

Quote:

Originally posted by Flubber
bumped for the Y guy

and again!
Ykes Klicks, bookmark it!

Yxklyx · January 29, 2002, 11:37

What is "B/W"?

Fitz · January 29, 2002, 17:10

I believe Ned used it for Beraucracy warning. This is the number of bases that you must exceed to start recieving extra drones due to number of bases.

It is determined by the formula:

Max bases without extra drones (B/W) = (8-Diff)*(4+Eff)*maproot/2

Where Diff is 0-5 (citizen = 0, transcend=5 etc).
Eff is factions Efficiency rating from Social Engineering.
Maproot is 1 for standard, 1.6 for Huge.

I have heard said, but not perrsonally confirmed, that the Eff factor is 0 if the factions Efficiency rating is negative.

Someone else will have to provide the maproots for the other planet sizes, as I am doing this all by memory.