WEIRD AI unit design...

[NorthSwordsman]

I was playing a SP game on the Thinkers level (for the fun of it, lol), as Zak. AT one point, Sven (blast him) declared vendetta. I saw him producing a very odd unit.... and the design appearance when it finally showed up near one of my bases was rather... comical...

The unit? Ready for this? A fungicidal missle foil. Armored to boot (what's up with THAT? what a waste of minerals...) It was a regular missle foil with 2 yellow vertical fungicidal tanks in the front quarters. This has to be the oddest unit I've ever seen designed by the AI to date. Anyone else seen this design before? I thought it was impossible to assign terraforming attributes to warcraft?

NS

[Avenoct]

Whoa, that IS strange. I've seen a few AI slipups, but I can't remember fungicide on a combat unit! Congrats Northswordsman on your discovery...by the way, a fun thing to do sometimes to weak factions is gift them a bizzare unit of your own creation. Being that it can't retroengineer your supply-needlejet it will probably just keep making it because it can.
-Smack

[NorthSwordsman]

I've done that :-). It's fun to play around with the AI's strategy (or lack thereof!) by giving them some oddball units. What's interesting is that sooner or later, all the factions are using that particular design. Makes you wonder sometimes....

NS

[Earwicker]

Yep, I've seen this in several games against the Pirates. What a dolt. Next thing you know we'll see Polymorphic Encrypted Probe Teams.

[Ned]

Now there's a thought. A lot of us here have been trying to figure our how to make the AI play better. So rather than give them oddball units, why not give them units that could really help its game that for some reason it does not make. My prime example are police garrisons.

Anyone else have some ideas on units the AI never builds that could really make it more effective? E.g., Fusion speeder crawlers?

Ned

[Clear Skies]

Or cruiser colony pods. I'm sure those'd benefit the AI...

Also, things I never see them build are decent dual ability units, like police AAA garrisons. Maybe I should give them some of those.

[Venom]

Originally posted by Smack
Whoa, that IS strange. I've seen a few AI slipups, but I can't remember fungicide on a combat unit! Congrats Northswordsman on your discovery...by the way, a fun thing to do sometimes to weak factions is gift them a bizzare unit of your own creation. Being that it can't retroengineer your supply-needlejet it will probably just keep making it because it can.
-Smack

A few AI slip ups?

[Ned]

What about

Clean superformers
Clean wave copters
Clean lifters
Clean police garrisons
AAA, Marine best armor/weapon cruisers
Empath artillery (for those worms)

Ned

[Earwicker]

Foil supply
Cruiser sea former (super, clean, or otherwise)
Foil/ cruiser probe
Needlejet colony pods
Drop probe teams

[NorthSwordsman]

Part of the problem is that the no AI program in existence now or in the future will be able to think like a person. It can approximate it, but it will not have the quirks and flashes of inspiration that a human has. I doubt that the AI can be improved to the point where it can outsmart a person.

NS

[Avenoct]

Like Ned said, we've been trying to come with ways to help the poor AI, and I have to say giving it a former in the beginning makes a big difference. True, when it comes down to conquest the AI doesn't cut it, especially defending itself, but give it a former in the faction text and you'll see a bit of a difference. If you are going to go so far as to give it units that it might use you've left the realm of playing to win and might as well play the infamous 'switch sides every x years' scenario. The trick is to have a random map generated, not know diddly about where the AI is and what it is up to and then find out to your horror that the other factions have snapped up all the SP's and are teaming up to send some shard hovertanks to mop up your faction. Personally I can't stand fighting an AI that I've determined no longer has a chance. I quit 4 out of 5 games along about the time I get either 2 submissive factions or the Cloning Vats. At that point I know that I've won and as the turns get dreadfully long I get bored with it all and quit, maybe pb'ing everyone for a last laugh.

A second thing I wish for the AI in the future (see the post about hardest SP game I've ever....) is a recognition of this point, or better yet, an anticipation of it. If the AI factions could see that you were going to corner the game (say when you start developing a tech a turn, or when you have better miltary units than any other faction..etc..) maybe it would be a good time for them to team up and attempt to annihilate you? Submissive factions should be able to make some secret pacts with your chief rivals..it should be easy enough to code for say, three scenarios it might choose from. One, your submissive demands some tech or pretends to be framed by you, then distributes the tech...Two, is given every captured base of yours by the enemy faction in exchange for launching a massive probe invasion or Three, your submissive blatently pacts with all the other factions and invites them all over for tea before inviting you to join the League of Nations, price?: all your tech and an SP base or two.

True, once you arrive at the endgame it's only a couple turns to build the Voice of Planet and Ascent pronto. I've often saved up so many AA's that I get to about Transcendent Thought 31 (which increases ecodamage?...) as these are built, but the AI is totally helpless in the endgame. It's the beginning where the major differences can be made with ease..design custom factions, give them extra units, etc., but the most elegant differences must be made to the midgame. If you weight the beginning as to give the AI advantages in addition to it's major advantages at Transcend level, you create a game imbalance in the hope of creating a challenge. That's fine, but it's precarious. Too much and you are fighting a single-minded war to keep up (IE probe teams). Furthermore, if the AI factions are so muscular as to get all the early SP's you are going to want to take them over later, which narrows the game. What is an ideal enemy? One whom you respect as you respect your own forces. Midgame, midgame, midgame...

AI slipups? How about the time Lal Terraformed his own base into the sea, sans pressure dome? It was almost like he meant to landbridge but misstyped (misinformed his Corps of Engineers)...

-Smack

[Method]

a really weird looking unit is the missle foil 6-5-4*3 i think missle launcher can be substituted w/ anything else though

[Ned]

Smack, I only wish I had thought of this earlier - giving well designed units to the AI to copy. We give submissives tech and bases for our own purposes, why not a unit design? Ned

[Kirnwaffen]

In terms of AI slip ups, nothing made me go "huh?" like watching Cha PB another (superior) faction:

1. The other faction was going to wipe him out, and anyone could have seen it.

2. He had another PB, and failed to follow up on his first.

3. He hit the most insignificant base he possibly could have (a sea base far from the other fac's HQ producing about two RPs and a little energy), almost as if he just wanted to provoke everybody.

[Clear Skies]

Well it kind of worked...
I built a clean supply foil and gave it to Zakharov. Next thing I know, he's producing hundreds of the things - and using them intelligently too!
However, it seems that you have to be pacted with the faction to whom you give the unit, since I find you have to move it into one of their bases and then transfer control. It took me three attempts to get Morgan producing Police sentinels - only on the third try did I give him a set directly into one of his bases.

I also used this technique to completely screw up Dee's war machine. The turn before she renounced our Pact, I gave her a Needlejet Transport. Now either her technicians fell suddenly in love with the design or she is very thick - she began mass producing them at nearly every base! Next turn, when she declared Vendetta (I had troops in her territory), she only had half the troops she would otherwise have had!

Needless to say, I laughed my backside off - then PBed her into oblivion with 5 Singularity PBs....

[Ned]

Smack, I'm sorry, but that is one of the funniest things I have ever read here. I too fell off my chair laughing! Dee mass producing Needlejet transports!

So, it works! Bravo!

Ned

[Avenoct]

I'm glad to see you went ahead and used the unit gifting idea. It really is amusing to give supply needlejets....hehe....but like SMAC fanatic said, some units ( ie. the supply foil) can and are used quite effectively. My next project is to figure a way to give each faction a supply crawler in the faction text. I wish a supply foil would be possible but it's not a basic unit...maybe there's a way....mutter mutter....happy crawlering,
-Smack

[Ken Hinds]

I doubt that the AI can be improved to the point where it can outsmart a person.

NS

Gee, Thanks. I regularly get beat by the AI in both CIV II and in SMAC.

Ken

[Ned]

And it took me a very long time to beat the AI in Civ I on the highest level. Ned

[NorthSwordsman]

Post deleted- it was a dumb comment. Sorry.

[Googlie]

Originally posted by Smack
My next project is to figure a way to give each faction a supply crawler in the faction text. I wish a supply foil would be possible but it's not a basic unit...maybe there's a way....mutter mutter....happy crawlering,
-Smack

You can add a supply foil to the alpha.txt and alphax.txt. The AI doesn't build them very often, but I have played a game where the PKs built a slew.

eg, for alphax.txt, under #UNITS

add a 24th category (and remember to change the number from 23 to 24):

Foil Supply, Foil, Supply, Scout, 10, 0, 0, IndAuto,DocFlex, - 1, 00000000000000000000000000

It'd be the same for smac's alpha.txt. Add the line to the end, and remember to increase the # from 14 to 15

The graphics look funny, but if you add armor or trance they become normal again (course the AI doesn't add armor or trance)

G.

[Avenoct]

Thanks Googlie, I think I'll try that. The game where I gave all factions a former..yadda yadda..just came to a close. I think that giving AI factions extra starting units is a great way to change up the game. Convincing them to use the former and build more, well....adding 'build' to their strategy seems to work better than not. I've yet to see an AI energy park though. And what's with the lousy terraforming strategy? Miriam built two or three condensers, all on rocky squares, and one right next to the mouth of mount planet! She at least got her cities wet with extra rainfall...and she did a sight better than Lal who raised land on the wrong side of his island, connecting him to the fungal polar area rather than to an adjoining island. Silly AI.

-Smack

[Method]

Originally posted by Ned
And it took me a very long time to beat the AI in Civ I on the highest level. Ned

and i never went past chieftain in civ I or prince in CivII (but i was like 10 years old at the time) and i'm in the middle of my second librarian game now. (the first one i think i diplomatic-ed and my current one i have 2 pacts 2 pets 1 killed and 1 vendetta.) i know this isn't the thread for this but should i win diplomatic now or wait a very long time for transcenence?

[Ken Hinds]

And zigging back towards the thread topic a bit. I want to thank all the unit idea contributors for providing me with encouragement to attempt using the workshop features for myself.

I get tired of watching my formers and Colony pods get blasted by anything and everything. In my last game I got plasma steel early and decided to add some armor to the formers. It didn't help enough against mindworms, but came close. I also dicovered that if you upgrade the weapons when the chance comes you can build some of the advanced units long before the Production Chief would normally offer them. Ex: Needle jets with Plasma Steel armor became Needle Penetrators.

Thanks again,

Ken

[Ned]

Ken, I have never put armor on a plane. What is it, again, that happens when you get a new weapon?

TKG, Even though I think I can play SMACx well at the highest level, I really fear trying CIV I again. That game was a real nightmare.

Ned

[NorthSwordsman]

Here are some interesting posts on the effectiveness of armor on planes.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...&threadid=7727

And for Naval vessel armor:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...&threadid=7728

I bumped both threads up to the top for reference.

[Ken Hinds]

Originally posted by Ned
Ken, I have never put armor on a plane. What is it, again, that happens when you get a new weapon?

Ned

Ned,

What I've found, but others may already know, is that if after the Production Chief finishes the new weapons design offerings you go into the work shop and add that new weapon/armor to items that he chose not to upgrade then you can sometimes get items that you would not be offered for several more advances or even total new designs that don't fall in the normal paths.

I haven't played enough of SMAC (V1.0) yet to know what the normal paths should be so maybe this is old to some of you. And I'm not talking about the "mk(?)" designation. For example I just took an infantry Scout patrol and added Sythmetal armor to it and got a 1-2-2 sythmetal scirmisher(sp) with the option to obsolete the sythmetal sentinals. This was without mobility yet. I've never had this item come up in a "regular" build path even though I've played at least a couple dozen games. Now I had found a unity rover in a pod so that may have made some difference even though I couldn't build scout rovers.

Ken

[Basil]

Just so that you are all aware:

In SMAC version 1 it was reasonably cheap to put armour on planes. They "fixed" that in later patches, so in SMAC v4 or SMAC-X it is very expensive to put armour on planes.

Of course, the game still uses the plane's armour rating to defend in certain situations - against ground units with SAM, but also when a fighter scrambles to defend a unit against bomber attack, I'm pretty sure the scrambling fighter defends with its armour. (This would be a bug.)

[Kirnwaffen]

I thought that armor on planes was only used to defend against attack when they were left in the open and attacked on an opponents turn. IIRC, if an interceptor scrambles, it becomes a weapon to weapon dogfight.

Edit: sorry, missed the bug part.

K

[Basil]

Yes. I'm just going by my experience that the scrambling jet almost always loses the fight, even if it has better weapon, unless it has better morale and better reactor, which is consistent with the fight being resolved as weapon-vs-scrambler's armour. It certainly should be weapon-vs-weapon .